Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

[Khatarnaak54]

Humsafar & all respected Reform Movement brothers & sisters,

I have noticed that throughout you have maintained that you and Reform Movement follow the Fatimi Dawat. Progticide and Adam inquired how will you recognize and verify Imam, you replied to whomsoever Dai points; you & Reform Movement will accept him as Imam.

Inference: On the religious matter you and reform movement consider Molana Burhanuddin (TUS) as correct. On the non-religious matter you are demanding accountability of funds and independent & transparent functioning at Jamat level, etc. On the religious matter you and the Reform Movement are of firm belief that Fatimi Dawat is the correct.

PLEASE answer below:
1. Do you consider Mola Ameer-al-Mumineen Ali (A) is the only and the sole successor of Prophet Mohammed (S)?
2. Fatimi Dawat believes that Hazrat Umar murdered Molatina Fatima (A) - do you and Reform Movement too believe in the same?
3. Fatimi Dawat considers that Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Usman plotted in Sakifa to usurp the right of Mola Ali (A) - do you also believe same?
4. Fatimi Dawat believes that those three poisoned Nabi Mohammed (S) - do you also believe the same?
5. Fatimi Dawat do "Barat" with Hz. Abubakr, Umar and Usman - do you do the same?
6. Fatimi Dawat consider Hazrata Aaisah as enemy as she came on Camel to fight with Mola Ali (A) in the war of Jamal as Fatimi Dawat does "Barat" with all the enemies so do you do "Barat" with Aaisha?
7. Fatimi Dawat send "Laanat" on Maviya, the murder of Imam Hasan (A) - do you/Reform Movement send "Laanat" on Maviya?
8. Fatimi Dawat send "Laanat" on Maloon Mukhtaar Saqafi - do Reform Movement also does same?
9. Fatimi Dawat consider Imam Tayyeb (A) as the true Imam and send "Lanat" on his enemies (Isnashari Imams after Hazrat Moosa Kazim) - do you and the Reform Movement do the same?

Anyone calling themselves as the Dawoodi Bohras irrespective of any side of divide MUST abide by above. So, brother Humsafar, SBM, Hussain KSA, Doctor, Al Zulfiquar, Canadian, etc - please share your stand on above. Please consider to reply, it will help in understanding at least the basic structure of all respected Reformist members.

[Muslim First]

PLEASE answer below:
1. Do you consider Mola Ameer-al-Mumineen Ali (A) is the only and the sole successor of Prophet Mohammed (S)?
Who cares. Islam was not and is not private ZAIDAAT of Prophet SAW or Ahl e Bait. Please furnish proof from Qur'an that Islam was a Kingdom and Muhammad was a King.
2. Fatimi Dawat believes that Hazrat Umar murdered Molatina Fatima (A) - do you and Reform Movement too believe in the same?
BS
3. Fatimi Dawat considers that Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Usman plotted in Sakifa to usurp the right of Mola Ali (A) - do you also believe same?
Fairytale
4. Fatimi Dawat believes that those three poisoned Nabi Mohammed (S) - do you also believe the same?
Fairytale from lunatic Fatemi Dawat
5. Fatimi Dawat do "Barat" with Hz. Abubakr, Umar and Usman - do you do the same?
Majority don't give a sheet.
6. Fatimi Dawat consider Hazrata Aaisah as enemy as she came on Camel to fight with Mola Ali (A) in the war of Jamal as Fatimi Dawat does "Barat" with all the enemies so do you do "Barat" with Aaisha?
So what

[Khatarnaak54]

PLEASE answer below:
1. Do you consider Mola Ameer-al-Mumineen Ali (A) is the only and the sole successor of Prophet Mohammed (S)?
Who cares. Islam was not and is not private ZAIDAAT of Prophet SAW or Ahl e Bait. Please furnish proof from Qur'an that Islam was a Kingdom and Muhammad was a King.
2. Fatimi Dawat believes that Hazrat Umar murdered Molatina Fatima (A) - do you and Reform Movement too believe in the same?
BS
3. Fatimi Dawat considers that Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Usman plotted in Sakifa to usurp the right of Mola Ali (A) - do you also believe same?
Fairytale
4. Fatimi Dawat believes that those three poisoned Nabi Mohammed (S) - do you also believe the same?
Fairytale from lunatic Fatemi Dawat
5. Fatimi Dawat do "Barat" with Hz. Abubakr, Umar and Usman - do you do the same?
Majority don't give a sheet.
6. Fatimi Dawat consider Hazrata Aaisah as enemy as she came on Camel to fight with Mola Ali (A) in the war of Jamal as Fatimi Dawat does "Barat" with all the enemies so do you do "Barat" with Aaisha?
So what

Begani shaadi me Muslim First Deewana.

Muslim First, are you Dawoodi Bohra Reformist? No, you are not Dawoodi Bohra Reformist. You are enemy of Fatimi Dawat. Our Reformist brothers and sisters are first Bohra Mumineen and then Reformist or Abde, My post is addressed to them and not to you.

[Humsafar]

Looks like we did not have enough of Adam and Pesticide so now we have this Kharnaak joker. ooooohh, I'm shaking in my shoes.
The short answer is that reformists have no problem with Fatimi Dawat and its history and its doctrine. These questions are irrelevant. As dawoodi bohras we don't believe in Dai worship. Those who worship the Dai are Abde Burhani Bohras. Short and simple.
As for the long answer. Well, there is no long answer.

[Khatarnaak54]

Looks like we did not have enough of Adam and Pesticide so now we have this Kharnaak joker. ooooohh, I'm shaking in my shoes.
The short answer is that reformists have no problem with Fatimi Dawat and its history and its doctrine. These questions are irrelevant. As dawoodi bohras we don't believe in Dai worship. Those who worship the Dai are Abde Burhani Bohras. Short and simple.
As for the long answer. Well, there is no long answer.

Humsafar,

I addressed you and all with respect and dignity. Instead of replaying with more humility why you are humiliating me? I am sorry to say, you do not know basic civil manners? Or probably you are not Dawoodi Bohra Reformist! And you are running your personal agenda.

I am the author of those questions and placed it to all Mumineen Reformist to learn the core of their faith. Instead of helping you are telling me I am a fool and my questions are irrelevant! They are relevant to me and may be not for you.

[Humsafar]

Khatarnaak sahib, you're not the first one to ask these questions. We're tired of answering them. Please search this forum. Again I repeat, these are irrelevant because these do not concern reformists. We have no problem with the Fatemi history and doctrine. I'm sorry if I offended you.

[anajmi]

52 is bad, 53 will be worst and 54 will be Khatarnaak.

[Khatarnaak54]

Khatarnaak sahib, you're not the first one to ask these questions. We're tired of answering them. Please search this forum. Again I repeat, these are irrelevant because these do not concern reformists. We have no problem with the Fatemi history and doctrine. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Humsafar sahab,

I appreciate that you have courtesy to tender regrets. I humbly suggest that I pardoned you. I did researched the forum and diligently indeed. But there is so much noise and conflicting statement that it became impossible to structure something!

[Aarif]

K54,
Before asking any questions you should ask yourself one question. Are bohras following the basic rules of Islam as mentioned in holy quran under the present Dai? According to me the answer is NO. And if you guys are not following Islam then why do you want to dig into the history of Islam?

[Khatarnaak54]

52 is bad, 53 will be worst and 54 will be Khatarnaak.

Anajmi and Muslim First = eik hi theli ke chat'te bat'te.

Anajmi your speaking on this thread is like "Begani shadi me Abdullah deewana". Are you Dawoodi Bohra Reformist? No, you are not DBR. You are enemy of Fatimi Dawat. Was the question addressed to you? No. But you still come uninvited i.e. why I said, "Begani shaadi...."

[Khatarnaak54]

K54,
Before asking any questions you should ask yourself one question. Are bohras following the basic rules of Islam as mentioned in holy quran under the present Dai? According to me the answer is NO. And if you guys are not following Islam then why do you want to dig into the history of Islam?

Arif,

What basic rule of Islam are you referring to? Please advise.

[SBM]

But there is so much noise and conflicting statement that it became impossible to structure something!

Khatarnaak54

Khatarnaak 54
How about structuring some thing positive which is helping poor Fatimi Followers that will be a very positive contribution you and your Kothari defenders like Adam-Progticide-Profstian-Murtaza VD-Murtaza 2152 can make instead of all this unnecessary debate
If you did a good research I am sure you must be reading about POVERTY IN AHMEDABAD so how about structuring your energy for the right cause

[Muslim First]

Br anajmi
It will be very intersting to learn answers to these core beliefs of Shia.
See iff progressive or orthodox DB give answers to these core belief.

[ghulam muhammed]

PLEASE answer below:
1. Do you consider Mola Ameer-al-Mumineen Ali (A) is the only and the sole successor of Prophet Mohammed (S)?
2. Fatimi Dawat believes that Hazrat Umar murdered Molatina Fatima (A) - do you and Reform Movement too believe in the same?
3. Fatimi Dawat considers that Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar and Hz. Usman plotted in Sakifa to usurp the right of Mola Ali (A) - do you also believe same?
4. Fatimi Dawat believes that those three poisoned Nabi Mohammed (S) - do you also believe the same?
5. Fatimi Dawat do "Barat" with Hz. Abubakr, Umar and Usman - do you do the same?
6. Fatimi Dawat consider Hazrata Aaisah as enemy as she came on Camel to fight with Mola Ali (A) in the war of Jamal as Fatimi Dawat does "Barat" with all the enemies so do you do "Barat" with Aaisha?
7. Fatimi Dawat send "Laanat" on Maviya, the murder of Imam Hasan (A) - do you/Reform Movement send "Laanat" on Maviya?
8. Fatimi Dawat send "Laanat" on Maloon Mukhtaar Saqafi - do Reform Movement also does same?
9. Fatimi Dawat consider Imam Tayyeb (A) as the true Imam and send "Lanat" on his enemies (Isnashari Imams after Hazrat Moosa Kazim) - do you and the Reform Movement do the same?

Could you please quote due references specifying the exact faitimid text/literature which subscribes to all of the above.

[porus]

...
5. Fatimi Dawat do "Barat" with Hz. Abubakr, Umar and Usman - do you do the same?
6. Fatimi Dawat consider Hazrata Aaisah as enemy as she came on Camel to fight with Mola Ali (A) in the war of Jamal as Fatimi Dawat does "Barat" with all the enemies so do you do "Barat" with Aaisha?

Welcome Khatarnaak54,

I am gratified that you did not ask reformists to send 'laanat' on Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman and Aaisha. However, the heirs to leadership of Fatimi Daawat constantly send laanats on them and also encourage their followers to do the same. (By the way, Fatimi Daawat does not believe anything. Please do not refer to abstract inanimate nouns anthromorphically. )

If you are not a Dai-worshipper like Adam, Progticide and Profastian, then you will give credence, as a Muslim, to the Quran. While on the subject of the Quran, can you please justify sujood to Dai in the light of ayat 41:37?

So, first, consider ayat 9:40, which Muslim History confirms is Allah's praise for Abu Bakr. Do you agree that it was Abu Bakr who was in the cave with Rasulullah during Hijrat?

Second, consider ayat 2:124. Do you agree that Allah cautions Ibrahim by saying that Imamat will not extend to those from his progeny who are among the 'Zalimeen'.

Third, are you aware that Imam Jafar al-Sadiq's mother, Umm Farwah, was the grand-daughter of Abu Bakr. She was thus the grand-mother of Imam Ismail.

Thus, Imam Ismail is not only from the progeny of Muhammad but also from the progeny of Abu Bakr.

Thus, Imamat is from the progeny of Muhammad and Abu Bakr. Yet 2:124 states that there will no Imams from the progeny of 'Zalimmen'.

Are you justified, then, in considering Abu Bakr a Zaalim and cursing him and thus cursing a forefather of your Imams?

I hope you will not disappoint us and confirm that your knowledge, like you avatar, is really Khatarnaak.

[abde53]

khatarnaak 54 bhai
we need more people like you to put these progreesive dushman to tell us who do they believe in. bhai what do you think about these progiees trying to help mumineens of ahmedabad, do you think we can trust them, i like to help them i am not rich but i am thinking to make small donation but i am not sure if they can be trusted, adam bhai,progticide bhai and profstian bhai have not replied anything so i am not sure if i can trust them either, what do you think.Do you think we have poor mumin if our shafiq bawa TUS is taking care of them how can we trust progies when our shafiq bawa TUS says through our aamils that our moula TUS and mansoos TUS knows everything and he has his thanda saya and barakat on our muminen so how can they be hungry but i will give them some money

[bohri]

Looks like we did not have enough of Adam and Pesticide so now we have this Kharnaak joker. ooooohh, I'm shaking in my shoes.
The short answer is that reformists have no problem with Fatimi Dawat and its history and its doctrine. These questions are irrelevant. As dawoodi bohras we don't believe in Dai worship. Those who worship the Dai are Abde Burhani Bohras. Short and simple.
As for the long answer. Well, there is no long answer.

Humsafar,

I addressed you and all with respect and dignity. Instead of replaying with more humility why you are humiliating me? I am sorry to say, you do not know basic civil manners? Or probably you are not Dawoodi Bohra Reformist! And you are running your personal agenda.

I am the author of those questions and placed it to all Mumineen Reformist to learn the core of their faith. Instead of helping you are telling me I am a fool and my questions are irrelevant! They are relevant to me and may be not for you.

[/quote]

Yessireee.....your questions are irrelevant indeed! You should pass them around at your next Ashara-Tamasha and see how many abdes are remotely interested in them, care about them or even understand it. Though if you distribute the paper, it may be useful for making peanut containers

You can confuse the unread abdes by your goobledigook (lisaane-dawaat) language and persuade them easily into believing whatever to ensure they are not separated from their kharaas and mithaas. Instead of regurgitating whatever you are fed in your sabaks, why don't you address simple community issues such as money extortion, Dai family excesses and the threat of social boycott?

[canadian]

khatarnaak 54 bhai
we need more people like you to put these progreesive dushman to tell us who do they believe in. bhai what do you think about these progiees trying to help mumineens of ahmedabad, do you think we can trust them, i like to help them i am not rich but i am thinking to make small donation but i am not sure if they can be trusted, adam bhai,progticide bhai and profstian bhai have not replied anything so i am not sure if i can trust them either, what do you think.Do you think we have poor mumin if our shafiq bawa TUS is taking care of them how can we trust progies when our shafiq bawa TUS says through our aamils that our moula TUS and mansoos TUS knows everything and he has his thanda saya and barakat on our muminen so how can they be hungry but i will give them some money

My theory is that the Kothar has sent smooth operators like Adam, Profastian, Progticide, etc. to harass progressives and the progressive camp has brought in Mr. abde53 (inspector clouseau) to counteract the Kothari attacks!!!!

[Adam]

Thank Khatarnaak
The questions you have raised are of the simplest form. But you will notice that the Proggies are just too scared to answer them straight up. Instead, like every thread they beat around the bush.

@Humsafar

The short answer is that reformists have no problem with Fatimi Dawat and its history and its doctrine. These questions are irrelevant. As dawoodi bohras we don't believe in Dai worship.

If you don't believe in Dai "following" like Sajda and infalibility etc then you are going against Fatimid beliefs that you claim to follow.
So, there is a problem.

Muslim First

Br anajmi
It will be very intersting to learn answers to these core beliefs of Shia.
See iff progressive or orthodox DB give answers to these core belief.

Yes, it might be interesting, because there the problem lies, not the dawat.
You will also realize that the Proggies are so lost, they will not be able to answer those simple questions.

Gulam

Could you please quote due references specifying the exact faitimid text/literature which subscribes to all of the above.

Daimul Islam, Uyoon al Akbar & Shar al Akhbar

@Porus

While on the subject of the Quran, can you please justify sujood to Dai in the light of ayat 41:37?

You've seem to have forgotten the ayats where Sajda was given to Yusuf and Adam AS (don't bring this Sajda debate up here again)

So, first, consider ayat 9:40, which Muslim History confirms is Allah's praise for Abu Bakr. Do you agree that it was Abu Bakr who was in the cave with Rasulullah during Hijrat?

That ayat doesn't praise Abu Bakr, it praises the Prophet, the word عليه is in singular, for the Prophet AS.

Second, consider ayat 2:124. Do you agree that Allah cautions Ibrahim by saying that Imamat will not extend to those from his progeny who are among the 'Zalimeen'.

Correct. So? Zalimeen we believe are 123 and others.

Third, are you aware that Imam Jafar al-Sadiq's mother, Umm Farwah, was the grand-daughter of Abu Bakr. She was thus the grand-mother of Imam Ismail.

That isn't a problem.
Even the Grandfather of the Prophet Ibrahim was a "mushrik". (P.S Ibrahim is the one who has said that quote)
Each person carries there own deeds.
From good people, bad people may turn out. (Nizar bin Imam Mustansir)
From bad, the good may turn out. (Mohammed bin Abki Bakr)
Each person carries there own deeds. و لاتزر وازرة وزر اخرى

You have also misunderstood the Ayat 2:124 if you understand the Arabic version. Below is a translation FYI

And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders) ? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers. (Zalim)

It doesn't mean that Imamat cannot be through the Zalim zurriyat (It is primarily through the Zurriya of the Prohpet). It says, that from THIS zurriyat, whatever it maybe, the Zalims will not become Imams. So,
Abu Bakr = Zalim = Not Imam
Nizar = Zalim = Not Imam.

Another ayat that has a similar meaning
ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا ٱلْكِتَٰبَ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌۭ لِّنَفْسِهِۦ وَمِنْهُم مُّقْتَصِدٌۭ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌۢ بِٱلْخَيْرَٰتِ بِإِذْنِ ٱللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ ٱلْفَضْلُ ٱلْكَبِيرُ
35:32

Porus. Remove the hatred from your head. You're a smart guy. Don't let your arrogance and hatred get the worst of you.

سلاما

[porus]

@Porus

While on the subject of the Quran, can you please justify sujood to Dai in the light of ayat 41:37?

You've seem to have forgotten the ayats where Sajda was given to Yusuf and Adam AS (don't bring this Sajda debate up here again)

41:37 is addressed to Muslims not to perform sujood to anyone other than Allah. There are no such commands to Muslims in case of Malaaikat being commanded to do 'sujood' to Adam or in the episode involving Yusuf and his parents.

Deal with 41:37 and accept it or reject it on its own terms.

[porus]

So, first, consider ayat 9:40, which Muslim History confirms is Allah's praise for Abu Bakr. Do you agree that it was Abu Bakr who was in the cave with Rasulullah during Hijrat?

That ayat doesn't praise Abu Bakr, it praises the Prophet, the word عليه is in singular, for the Prophet AS.

In the ayat 9:40, Allah calls Abu Bakr a friend of Prophet. Is that not praise enough?

[porus]

Third, are you aware that Imam Jafar al-Sadiq's mother, Umm Farwah, was the grand-daughter of Abu Bakr. She was thus the grand-mother of Imam Ismail.

That isn't a problem.
Even the Grandfather of the Prophet Ibrahim was a "mushrik". (P.S Ibrahim is the one who has said that quote)
Each person carries there own deeds.
From good people, bad people may turn out. (Nizar bin Imam Mustansir)
From bad, the good may turn out. (Mohammed bin Abki Bakr)
Each person carries there own deeds. و لاتزر وازرة وزر اخرى

Nizar is not the Imam for Bohras. So, 2:124 does not apply to him. We can take him out of the discussion.

Abu Bakr is not the Imam either. So 2:124 does not apply to him.

2:124 applies to Imams and they are from dhurriyat of both their father and their mother. If that was not the case, Quran would not give importance to mother of Jesus and you would not give importance to Fatima.

Sending laanat on Abu Bakr appears like sending laanat on dhurriyat of Imams.

(By the way, this applies only to Ismaili Imams. Ithnaashari Imams are from a different mother of Imam al-Sadiq.)

[porus]

Porus. Remove the hatred from your head. You're a smart guy. Don't let your arrogance and hatred get the worst of you.

I do not hate anyone. I am pointing out that your religion is a hotbed for expressing hatred.

I am a scholar and will question any religion. Approaching transcendence will require you to eliminate anger, hatred and all negative emotions. What chance do you have of doing that when you are taught, since infancy, to utter hatred in your religious gatherings. [Try reading Patanjali's Yoga Sutra and his eight-fold (ashtanga) way. You might actually learn something useful.]

[Adam]

41:37 is addressed to Muslims not to perform sujood to anyone other than Allah. There are no such commands to Muslims in case of Malaaikat being commanded to do 'sujood' to Adam or in the episode involving Yusuf and his parents.

The Sajda to the Imam IS the Sajda to Allah. From him

In the ayat 9:40, Allah calls Abu Bakr a friend of Prophet. Is that not praise enough?

The word "Saheb" means - a person who accompanies. Not "friend".

2:124 applies to Imams and they are from dhurriyat of both their father and mother. If that was not the case, Quran would not give importance to mother of Jesus and you would not give importance to Fatima.
Sending laanat on Abu Bakr appears like sending laanat on dhurriyat of Imams.

You're mixing apples are oranges.
Sending La'nat of Abu Bakr, means = sending La'nat on Abu Bakr.
الا لعنة الله على الظالمين (On the Zalims, not their parents or children)

You've misunderstood completely
The Ayat says:
1. Imam will only be from the Zurriyat of Ibrahim AS.
2. From that Zurriyat, there maybe Zalims. These Zalims will never become Imams. Nizar was from this Zurriyat, but was a Zalim, thus not an Imam.

It doesn't say Imams cannot be the children of Zalims or Non believers.
Imam Zayn al Abedeen was the son of Shehrebanu (the Daughter of Kisra). Kisra was a Mushrik (even though he was a good person).

Each person carries their own deeds.

[anajmi]

The Sajda to the Imam IS the Sajda to Allah. From him

And then the abde idiot says

Sending La'nat of Abu Bakr, means = sending La'nat on Abu Bakr.

Actually, the sajda to Imam is the sajda to Imam. To say sajda to Imam is like sajda to Allah is like saying feeding yourself is the same as feeding the hungry!! It might work with abde idiots but doesn't work with those who have a functioning brain.

[Adam]

Idiotic comments ignored.

Back to the discussion.

[humanbeing]

This is what Progressive’s official mission states. More or less, every reasonably sane and self respecting orthodox bohra identify with this mission.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our mission
All is not well with our community
We are Ismaili Fatimid Mustalian Tayyebi Dawoodi Bohras, a sect of Shia Islam. We accept the succession of Imams up to Imam Tayyeb, and the line of Tayyebi Dais starting from Syedna Zoeb bin Moosa to the current Dai, Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin.
We are Dawoodi Bohras, and are referred to as reformists or progressives because of our struggle to bring social reforms in the community. We accept the religious authority and staus of the Dai. What we challenge is the elaborate system of conrol and coercsion that has developed in the instituion of Dawat. In common parlance this bureucracy of the priestly class is calld the Kothar. Over the years the Kothar has assummed draconian powers, taxing and controlling Bohras from womb to tomb.
We challenge the illegitimate and unIslamic conduct of the Kothar which supposedly rules in the name of the Dai. Our struggle is rooted in the Islamic ideals of justice and accountability, and it is our conviction that there's more to being a Dawoodi Bohra than most of us have been led to believe. Our aim is not merely to lay bare the corruption of the priesthood but also to remind ourselves of what our true heritage is and how it is being destroyed.
However, it's not just our history, our religion and our way of life that's under attack. Common people and common resources everywhere are daily being laid waste by big corporations, self-centered ruling classes and obscurantist despots.
Our world is beset with problems, problems that are as intractable as they are complex and overwhelming. But then, where there's cruelty and unreason there's also compassion and intellect. And, not to forget that the human spirit, untamed by centuries of oppression, is always our steadfast ally. It's not for nothing that people continue to fight for their rights in the face of tremendous odds and at the cost of unimaginable personal sacrifice.
We are of the belief that though our struggle in the Bohra context is unique in many ways, it is yet intertwined with other peoples' struggle for peace, justice and dignity. Only by relating to larger struggles around us and by renewing our commitment to our shared ideals we can hope to bring justice and equity in our communnity and in the world at large.
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Khatarnaak54

List of hatred runs really long.. Sad irony is, no where you mentioned belief in kalema of shahadat to be a muslim and then rest of the belief follows to narrow down to dawoodi bohras. I m from an orthodox fold. majority of commoner bohras utter laanats or would say yes to your questions sheerly out of convenience as its easy to vent out hatred and spit out laanats. The way you are shouting from the rooftop about demanding beliefs of people. What happens to the jalaal, guts, courage and shaan when it comes to uttering laanats openly. First to begin with start uttering laanats openly with names in the majlises and waaz which is the fiefdom of bohra itself. As you have decalred that; hatred and laanats to mentioned people is one of the basic requirement to be a DB. Then why use code words (1-2-3) ?

Very conveniently time and again, scheming Kothari agents are throwing this religious questions around avoiding and escaping practical and financial questions. Khatarnaak54, what happened 1000s of years ago forms the part of belief, but what is happening now is shaking those beliefs. Malpractices and cultization of bohra community is done by current leadership, people who dissent such practices are not against the entire history but against the current malpractices.

Official position of the progressive movement or a frustration of an orthodox bohra is not with religious tenets or historic belief of bohra community, but the way current leadership is exploiting bohras financially and tightening the noose to toe the line. But ofcourse only a scheming manipulative agent would ignore this cries and keep thumping down questions which would divert the burning issues on accountability, justice and austerity.

[porus]

When a person is not Imam, 2:124 does not apply to him, no matter whose dhurriyat he is from.

No Zalim can be an Imam. Agreed

However, if we agree with Adam, Imam can be from dhurriyat of a Zalim. Let us see how absurd that is.

Now Imam must be a son of previous Imam. If there can be no Zalim among Imams, when can we ever have a child of a Zalim becoming an Imam? Of course, never. Thus Imam can never be from dhurriyat of a Zalim. Proved.

Imam must have both a father and mother. Imam's father cannot be a Zalim as he himself is the Imam as we proved above.

How about Imam's mother? Can she be from dhurriyat of a Zalim? What does 2:124 say? It says Allah's pledge will not extend to Zalimeen.

Since Imam can never be from dhurriyat of a Zalim and Imam's father can never be from dhurriyat of Zalim, what does 2:124 mean?. It actually implies that mother of Imam can never be from dhurriyat of a Zalim either.

Imam Jafar al-Sadiq is from dhurriyat of Abu Bakr from his mother's side. Thus according to you, Imam al-Sadiq is from dhurriyat of a Zalim and according to 2:124, that cannot be. So either you are correct or Quran is correct.

(By the way, mushriks, like non-Imams, are not our concern with regard to 2:124. So please do not bring in that red herring)

[humanbeing]

khatarnaak 54 bhai
we need more people like you to put these progreesive dushman to tell us who do they believe in. bhai what do you think about these progiees trying to help mumineens of ahmedabad, do you think we can trust them, i like to help them i am not rich but i am thinking to make small donation but i am not sure if they can be trusted, adam bhai,progticide bhai and profstian bhai have not replied anything so i am not sure if i can trust them either, what do you think.Do you think we have poor mumin if our shafiq bawa TUS is taking care of them how can we trust progies when our shafiq bawa TUS says through our aamils that our moula TUS and mansoos TUS knows everything and he has his thanda saya and barakat on our muminen so how can they be hungry but i will give them some money

Abde53, You are chow cute !!!

[Adam]

@Porus
The Imam is through his father the Imam. So there's no question of Zalim there.
For the example, Imam Mustansir was the Imam, he had children, of them one was a Zalim and one was the chosen Imam.
That's what the Ayat is saying.
From THIS Zurriyat, never can the Zalim become an Imam.

This is where your understanding goes wrong:

How about Imam's mother? Can she be from dhurriyat of a Zalim? What does 2:124 say? It says Allah's pledge will not extend to Zalimeen.
Since Imam can never be from dhurriyat of a Zalim and Imam's father can never be from dhurriyat of Zalim, what does 2:124 mean?. It actually implies that mother of Imam can never be from dhurriyat of a Zalim either.

Ibrahim says و من ذريتي؟ قال لا ينال عهدي الظالمين
Ibrahim asks, will there be an Imam in my Zurriyat? Answer (Yes), but Zalims will never be the Imam.
This ayat also explains
ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا ٱلْكِتَٰبَ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌۭ لِّنَفْسِهِۦ وَمِنْهُم مُّقْتَصِدٌۭ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌۢ بِٱلْخَيْرَٰتِ بِإِذْنِ ٱللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ ٱلْفَضْلُ ٱلْكَبِيرُ
There maybe Zalims in that Zurriyat, but from the same Zurriyat there will be an Imam.

Summarizing:
- The Quran says Zalim will not be an Imam
- The Imam can be the offspring of a non believer, (father is an Imam, but through the mother). There is no question of the Mothers pure belief.
Maybe her fathers were non-believers.
As in the case of
-Ibrahim nabi. Grandson of a Mushrik Maternal grandfather.
-Imam Husain marrying Moulatena Shehrebanu d/o Kisra (Son= Imam Zayn al Abedeen)