Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.

Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Hanif on Sun May 06, 2012 7:19 pm

It doesn't mean that Imamat cannot be through the Zalim zurriyat (It is primarily through the Zurriya of the Prohpet). It says, that from THIS zurriyat, whatever it maybe, the Zalims will not become Imams. So,

Abu Bakr = Zalim = Not Imam

Nizar = Zalim = Not Imam.





When Imam Mustansir AS was alive he had appointed Nizar as the Imam openly. When he died the brother-in-law of Musteali and a female relative claimed that Imam had changed the Imamat from Nizar to Musteali on his deathbed. Then Musteali imprisoned Nizar and his son. He had Nizar killed and his son escaped. However, soon Musteali was killed and Amir became Imam, etc. Finally tayeb and he went in occultation.

Big question is that the Sura you quote says that Imams will not be in line of the Zaalims. So Tayeb's line disappeared from the face of the earth and Nizar's line is still running? Any explanation here?

Also, one of the Fatimid Dai's, Syedna Al-Kirmani says in his Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate, please see it under the heading, which I posted in the Bohoras and Reform says;

Ismail's Imamate was valid because he produced offspring who continued the imamate; it is essential aspect of their authenticity that a descendant of his peform in the present the required functions of the office. If there were no imam now, there could not have been one in the past; if the duties of the imam are not currently fulfilled by a properly designated descendant, the ancestor CANNOT HAVE BEEN THE IMAM.

"Aside from the philosophical component, al-Kirmani upheld a range of Shi'i doctrines, particularly as interepreted by the Ismailis. For him the the imamate was a living institution with a visible. imam. It was of paramount importance in religion and all aspects of life that required the constant attention of its supreme leader. The imam was (and is) the repository of knowledge and truth.



Now the Dai's two nieces verified the scripts and agreed whatever was written in the scripts were true translations.

Albeit, he was referring to the Ithanasheri Imams here but later on it came to be true for the Tayebis too, don't you think so? Can you or your Dai prove Kirmani wrong?

One more question, why does not the Dai, if he thinks his dawat and his Imam are true, then why not open the manuscripts in his possession to the whole world. Why was he trying to grab the manuscripts from Hamdani, Poonawalla, and Zaid Ali? Was he afraid truth will come out.

He still has a chance to prove his dawat and his Imams true by opening up his proofs to the Harvard University which has introduced ISMAILI HISTORY as a subject. It was only introduced recently.
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby porus on Sun May 06, 2012 7:54 pm

I wrote the following 9 years ago:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1327&p=22710&hilit=nizar#p22710

****************************
Those who read the above article may be interested in the parallel between what it describes is going on now in Daawat and very similar circumstances that, according to most non-Bohra scholars, transpired during the succession to Imam Mustansir.

Many Bohras speculate that Sayedna Taher Saifuddin understood that his son, Sayedna Burhanuddin, was weak in administrative ability and therefore he appointed Yusuf Najmuddin to be the real power behind the throne of Daawat. Following the death of Yusuf Najmuddin, the mantle seems to have passed on to his son, Badr al-Jamaali. The latter apparently wants Daawat to pass on to his brother-in-law Mufaddal, and hence a burgeoning conspiracy to weaken Mazoon’s claim through Zahir-Batin heresy and gunda-giri. While Yusuf Najmuddin was committed to Daawat, his son, Badr al-Jamali is more ambitious for his sister.

Flashback to succession battle between Mustaali and Nizar, sons of Imam Mustansir. Badr al-Jamaali (uncanny sameness of names) was a Wazir to Imam Mustansir. Badr al-Jamali wanted Mustaali to succeed in preference to Nizar on whom Imam Mustansir had already pronounced Nass. Mustaali was son-in-law of Badr al-Jamali, who died before he could see Mustali on throne of Imamat. Badr al-Jamali was succeded to Wazirate by his son Afzal Shah, who succeded in installing his brother-in-law Mustaali to Fatimid Imamat in Cairo after fratricide leading to murder of Nizar.

This view of history will be challenged by Bohras. Main plank of Bohra version is inclusion of an Arthurian legend (drawing of sword from stone) to legitimize Mustaali’s succession. I do not recall the legend precisely. Others may care to contribute.

*****************************
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Hanif on Sun May 06, 2012 10:16 pm

This view of history will be challenged by Bohras. Main plank of Bohra version is inclusion of an Arthurian legend (drawing of sword from stone) to legitimize Mustaali’s succession. I do not recall the legend precisely. Others may care to contribute.





The fact still remains their Imams are in hiding, and Nizari Imam has taken the reigns of Imamate and taking care of his people and others around the world, while the Bohora dawat continues to abuse his people and in this day and age Imam is in hiding. In fact, one historian, I believe it was Ivanow had said that the baby born to Amir's wife was a girl and not a boy, hence it was Tayebah and not Tayeb. Out of respect I shall give credence to the Bohora version that it was a baby boy. However, Imam Tayeb was born after Amir had died and hence there was no Imam for a couple of months. This is totally contrary to the Fatimid belief.

Porus, thanks for setting the record straight. You are right it was Al-Afdal who lied and put Musteali in charge. Soon the Imamat ended. The fact remains that Mustansir had appointed Nizar publicly as an Imam and his appointment was overturned by the two liars. Soon the Mustealian Imamat ended. Once again the lying party came to an end.I think you had also written a very similar article during the Nass of Mufadhal. May be I am mixing the two articles.

Also, thanks for the link in which a Muslim scholar is differentiating between a community and a cult. I could not believe it. The cult version fits to a T to the bohora cult.
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby progticide on Mon May 07, 2012 2:03 am

porus wrote:I wrote the following 9 years ago:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1327&p=22710&hilit=nizar#p22710

****************************
Those who read the above article may be interested in the parallel between what it describes is going on now in Daawat and very similar circumstances that, according to most non-Bohra scholars, transpired during the succession to Imam Mustansir.

Flashback to succession battle between Mustaali and Nizar, sons of Imam Mustansir. Badr al-Jamaali (uncanny sameness of names) was a Wazir to Imam Mustansir. Badr al-Jamali wanted Mustaali to succeed in preference to Nizar on whom Imam Mustansir had already pronounced Nass. Mustaali was son-in-law of Badr al-Jamali, who died before he could see Mustali on throne of Imamat. Badr al-Jamali was succeded to Wazirate by his son Afzal Shah, who succeded in installing his brother-in-law Mustaali to Fatimid Imamat in Cairo after fratricide leading to murder of Nizar.

This view of history will be challenged by Bohras. Main plank of Bohra version is inclusion of an Arthurian legend (drawing of sword from stone) to legitimize Mustaali’s succession. I do not recall the legend precisely. Others may care to contribute.

*****************************


Doctor, Hussain KSA and others,
Read the above post from this traitor Porus (Prof. POO).

I had warned you about his intentions and inclination toward Nizari Ismaili beliefs in another thread repeatedly. Now, this is for everyone to see for themselves. Do you still think he is a well-wisher of the progressives and one of you in your struggle when he has nothing to do with the Ismaili Mustaalian Tayyebi beliefs at all?

Look at yourselves, who you people have aligned with in your hatred for the Dai. This Porus and his kind are like termites eating into your DB faith and beliefs from within. Yet, you dont see or turn your eyes away from such traitors within your ranks who are laughing at you and mocking you openly at your helpless state of affairs.

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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby level_headed on Mon May 07, 2012 2:31 am

Muslim First wrote:
level_headed wrote:Prophet(SAW) was describing the day of resurrection where a group of people would be brought close to him. He would recognize them as his sahabas and they would be led to the fire. When the Prophet would ask that they were his sahabas and what wrong did they do. He would be told that they turned renegade after you departed

Reference please


Your sources Sahih Bukhari Hadith 584

Can't we say laanat on people who the Prophet has foretold will go to Hell
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Adam on Mon May 07, 2012 3:31 am

Perfect example off going off track.
Are we talking about Beliefs, La'nat or Nizaris?
What is the intention of this specific thread?
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Muslim First on Mon May 07, 2012 6:05 am

level_headed wrote:
Muslim First wrote:
level_headed wrote:Prophet(SAW) was describing the day of resurrection where a group of people would be brought close to him. He would recognize them as his sahabas and they would be led to the fire. When the Prophet would ask that they were his sahabas and what wrong did they do. He would be told that they turned renegade after you departed

Reference please


Your sources Sahih Bukhari Hadith 584

Can't we say laanat on people who the Prophet has foretold will go to Hell

Br LH AS
In order to drive our agenda we tend to twist meaning of Allah's book and words of Allah's Prophet.
Here is the Hadith you refer to
Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount". 'Abdullah added: The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount, and some of you will be brought in front of me till I will see them and then they will be taken away from me and I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' It will be said, 'you do not know what they did after you had left.'
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8 Hadith 578

Yes it talks about Sahabas but does he name names? If he did not say which one then how do you know whch one to send Lanat to?

Here is another Hadith
Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, "Some of my companions will come to me at my Lake Fount, and after I recognise them, they will then be taken away from me, whereupon I will say, 'My companions!' Then it will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you."
1. Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8 Hadith 584
2. Sahih Muslim, part 15, pp 53-54
Here again he talks about some sahabas who were innovators (who introduced Bida)
Don't you think it includes you your leader and your sect?

Can't we say laanat on people who the Prophet has foretold will go to Hell

What is need of wasting your breath if Prophet has condemned someone to hell?
Think brother and ponder
Wasalaam
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Adam on Mon May 07, 2012 9:19 am

Perfect example off going off track.
Are we talking about Beliefs, La'nat or Nizaris?
What is the intention of this specific thread?

Stick to one.
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Humsafar on Mon May 07, 2012 10:31 am

Adam wrote:Perfect example off going off track.

These Abde Burhani Bohras are really funny. They always worry about little and irrelevant things. They and their masters have taken the whole community and DB religion off track, and they are worried about these piddly threads going off track.

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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Adam on Mon May 07, 2012 1:31 pm

These Abde Burhani Bohras are really funny. They always worry about little and irrelevant things. They and their masters have taken the whole community and DB religion off track, and they are worried about these piddly threads going off track.

Rather it shows how clear WE are and how messed up "The opposition are".

You'll can't even follow a discussion, or continue an intelligent conversation.
If you can be diverted by something SO simple, its so easy to be diverted in religion. Which shows how far you people have moved away, that you'll can't differentiate between right and wrong, where you'll left off, or which way you are headed!
It's SO EASY for you'll go to "off track" (hint hint) - Which you'll have.
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Humsafar on Mon May 07, 2012 2:00 pm

Adam wrote:
T
If you can be diverted by something SO simple, its so easy to be diverted in religion. Which shows how far you people have moved away, that you'll can't differentiate between right and wrong, where you'll left off, or which way you are headed!
It's SO EASY for you'll go to "off track" (hint hint) - Which you'll have.

We can differentiate between true Mumins who DO NOT worship the Dan and False Mumins who DO worship the Dai.
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby truebohra on Mon May 07, 2012 2:05 pm

Humsafar wrote:
Adam wrote:Perfect example off going off track.

These Abde Burhani Bohras are really funny. They always worry about little and irrelevant things. They and their masters have taken the whole community and DB religion off track, and they are worried about these piddly threads going off track.

Humsafar, The questions posted by Adam are not irrelevant , they are fundamental part of Dawoodi Bohra. That is the problem of reformist in zeal of reforms they have started hitting at the roots of ours/(yours included) belief system. We are really pained at mocking our core belief in Imam & his seclusion, nass of 47th Dai is made an issue, abuse of Duat mutlaqin. Sunnis / Wahabis /Nizaris are having a gala time here abusing the fundamentals of ours/(yours) faith on a supposedly Dawoodi Bohra forum.

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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby truebohra on Mon May 07, 2012 2:09 pm

Humsafar wrote:
Adam wrote:
T
If you can be diverted by something SO simple, its so easy to be diverted in religion. Which shows how far you people have moved away, that you'll can't differentiate between right and wrong, where you'll left off, or which way you are headed!
It's SO EASY for you'll go to "off track" (hint hint) - Which you'll have.

We can differentiate between true Mumins who DO NOT worship the Dan and False Mumins who DO worship the Dai.


BE CLEAR Abde, Ortho,Dawoodi Bohras DO NOT worship any Prophet / Imam / Dai. This is a ploy by reformist to malign Dawoodi Bohras.

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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Humsafar on Mon May 07, 2012 2:11 pm

truebohra wrote:
Humsafar wrote:
Adam wrote:Perfect example off going off track.

These Abde Burhani Bohras are really funny. They always worry about little and irrelevant things. They and their masters have taken the whole community and DB religion off track, and they are worried about these piddly threads going off track.

Humsafar, The questions posted by Adam are not irrelevant , they are fundamental part of Dawoodi Bohra. That is the problem of reformist in zeal of reforms they have started hitting at the roots of ours/(yours included) belief system. We are really pained at mocking our core belief in Imam & his seclusion, nass of 47th Dai is made an issue, abuse of Duat mutlaqin. Sunnis / Wahabis /Nizaris are having a gala time here abusing the fundamentals of ours/(yours) faith on a supposedly Dawoodi Bohra forum.

I feel your pain truebohra, but if there is one iota of truebohraness in you, you should be more pained about the clergy mafia who have not only "started hitting at the roots of ours/(yours included) belief system" but have destroyed it out of shape and made decent human beings like you into unthinking slaves. Your pain and indignation is ridiculously misplaced.
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Humsafar on Mon May 07, 2012 2:22 pm

truebohra wrote:BE CLEAR Abde, Ortho,Dawoodi Bohras DO NOT worship any Prophet / Imam / Dai. This is a ploy by reformist to malign Dawoodi Bohras.

Ploy?
What about sajda tujhe waajib hai? What about the trimurti pictures (Taher/Mohammed/MUffy) in every home, car, wallet, and god know where else. What about all the namaz you do for him, and his vasila you take with every breath, what about pledging your jaan maal to him, what about bending down and going into a paroxysm of salivation the moment you see him or his brood? You abdes have a given a new meaning to worship of human. You worship him so much that you've contributed to the devolution of human race.
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby truebohra on Mon May 07, 2012 2:22 pm

The word 'Worship' has been abused by the so called Reformist with respect to Dawoodi Bohras. What is worship in Shia Islam - Salat / Dua / Dhikr - of Allah & Wali Alllah.
DB Offers Five Salat
DB does Dua to Allah with/without the wasila of wali allah
Dhikr - We do Dhikr of Allah & Wali Allah in Waaz & Majlis

Now where is Dai worshipping???

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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Humsafar on Mon May 07, 2012 2:26 pm

Stretching stretching. Pls join Adam, take a deep breath, and now relax.
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Humsafar on Mon May 07, 2012 2:31 pm

See, how you guys are worshipping the 53rd!!!
Image
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Humsafar on Mon May 07, 2012 2:35 pm

Here one more reformist ploy:
Image
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby truebohra on Mon May 07, 2012 2:37 pm

Humsafar wrote:
truebohra wrote:BE CLEAR Abde, Ortho,Dawoodi Bohras DO NOT worship any Prophet / Imam / Dai. This is a ploy by reformist to malign Dawoodi Bohras.

Ploy?
What about sajda tujhe waajib hai? What about the trimurti pictures (Taher/Mohammed/MUffy) in every home, car, wallet, and god know where else. What about all the namaz you do for him, and his vasila you take with every breath, what about pledging your jaan maal to him, what about bending down and going into a paroxysm of salivation the moment you see him or his brood? You abdes have a given a new meaning to worship of human. You worship him so much that you've contributed to the devolution of human race.

Humsafar, The way you have addressed ours/ (yours) Duats & mansoos is not acceptable & uncalled for. Photos of Duat is not worshiping we keep for remembrance. I also have my Family photo in my house. does that mean i am worshiping them. Yes pledge / oath / covenant is core part of Dawoodi Bohra & is not worship. I have one question .According to your uncorrupted belief Pledge/oath is only for Imam then you are also doing worship of Imam & doing shirk as per your logic. Bending / Bowing is mark of respect, i do taleem & salam similarly to my parents? Do i worship them? Namaz i think adam has already clarified. Namaz is he act of worship to allah alone ? How can you call it worship of Dai? Can you give any arkaan in tawasul namaaz which is worship of Dai

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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby truebohra on Mon May 07, 2012 2:40 pm

Humsafar, Your posting of photos does not convey anything. Please can you tell where is worship in this photos? & your definition of worship?
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Humsafar on Mon May 07, 2012 2:46 pm

truebohra wrote:Humsafar, Your posting of photos does not convey anything. Please can you tell where is worship in this photos? & your definition of worship?

My dear sweetie, if you can't see it I can't explain it. Ignorance is bliss.
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Humsafar on Mon May 07, 2012 2:49 pm

truebohra wrote:Humsafar, The way you have addressed ours/ (yours) Duats & mansoos is not acceptable & uncalled for. Photos of Duat is not worshiping we keep for remembrance. I also have my Family photo in my house. does that mean i am worshiping them. Yes pledge / oath / covenant is core part of Dawoodi Bohra & is not worship. I have one question .According to your uncorrupted belief Pledge/oath is only for Imam then you are also doing worship of Imam & doing shirk as per your logic. Bending / Bowing is mark of respect, i do taleem & salam similarly to my parents? Do i worship them? Namaz i think adam has already clarified. Namaz is he act of worship to allah alone ? How can you call it worship of Dai? Can you give any arkaan in tawasul namaaz which is worship of Dai

So why don't put up pictures of the Prophet, and ahlul bayt, of other imams and other duats? As for Adam, I strongly suggest you begin stretching with him. Stretch, stretch. Now take a deep breath and relax.
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby truebohra on Mon May 07, 2012 3:00 pm

Humsafar wrote:
truebohra wrote:Humsafar, Your posting of photos does not convey anything. Please can you tell where is worship in this photos? & your definition of worship?

My dear sweetie, if you can't see it I can't explain it. Ignorance is bliss.

Humsafar, Not an intelligent answer. In any case you cant explain & are escaping.
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Aarif on Mon May 07, 2012 3:02 pm

Khatarnaak54 wrote:
Aarif wrote:K54,
Before asking any questions you should ask yourself one question. Are bohras following the basic rules of Islam as mentioned in holy quran under the present Dai? According to me the answer is NO. And if you guys are not following Islam then why do you want to dig into the history of Islam?


Arif,

What basic rule of Islam are you referring to? Please advise.


Please read this thread started by me:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7217
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby truebohra on Mon May 07, 2012 3:03 pm

Humsafar wrote:
truebohra wrote:Humsafar, The way you have addressed ours/ (yours) Duats & mansoos is not acceptable & uncalled for. Photos of Duat is not worshiping we keep for remembrance. I also have my Family photo in my house. does that mean i am worshiping them. Yes pledge / oath / covenant is core part of Dawoodi Bohra & is not worship. I have one question .According to your uncorrupted belief Pledge/oath is only for Imam then you are also doing worship of Imam & doing shirk as per your logic. Bending / Bowing is mark of respect, i do taleem & salam similarly to my parents? Do i worship them? Namaz i think adam has already clarified. Namaz is he act of worship to allah alone ? How can you call it worship of Dai? Can you give any arkaan in tawasul namaaz which is worship of Dai

So why don't put up pictures of the Prophet, and ahlul bayt, of other imams and other duats? As for Adam, I strongly suggest you begin stretching with him. Stretch, stretch. Now take a deep breath and relax.

We dont have true phots of Prophet & Ahlut Bayt & Earlier Duats as simple as that.
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby truebohra on Mon May 07, 2012 3:11 pm

Aarif wrote:
Khatarnaak54 wrote:
Aarif wrote:K54,
Before asking any questions you should ask yourself one question. Are bohras following the basic rules of Islam as mentioned in holy quran under the present Dai? According to me the answer is NO. And if you guys are not following Islam then why do you want to dig into the history of Islam?


Arif,

What basic rule of Islam are you referring to? Please advise.


Please read this thread started by me:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7217

Your arguments are not new & are similar to what Wahhabi use for justification against Shias. With your points Shiasm has be thrown out. (I know this would be fodder to the fire for Wahabis on this borad)
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Humsafar on Mon May 07, 2012 3:18 pm

truebohra wrote:
Humsafar wrote:
truebohra wrote:Humsafar, Your posting of photos does not convey anything. Please can you tell where is worship in this photos? & your definition of worship?

My dear sweetie, if you can't see it I can't explain it. Ignorance is bliss.

Humsafar, Not an intelligent answer. In any case you cant explain & are escaping.

You won't understand an intelligent answer even if it stared at you till it went blue in the face. BTW, to abde idiots you also have to explain the obvious.
Last edited by Humsafar on Mon May 07, 2012 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby Humsafar on Mon May 07, 2012 3:24 pm

truebohra wrote:We dont have true phots of Prophet & Ahlut Bayt & Earlier Duats as simple as that.

You don't have them because the Prophet had explicitly prohibited such a thing. He eradicated idol worship. Every Muslim of every shade and stripe follows that edict. But Abde Taheri Bohras, Abde Burhani Bohras and Abde Shahzada Bohras just wallow in idol worship. Hallelujah!!!
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Re: Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

Unread postby truebohra on Mon May 07, 2012 3:32 pm

Humsafar wrote:
truebohra wrote:We dont have true phots of Prophet & Ahlut Bayt & Earlier Duats as simple as that.

You don't have them because the Prophet had explicitly prohibited such a thing. He eradicated idol worship. Every Muslim of every shade and stripe follows that edict. But Abde Taheri Bohras, Abde Burhani Bohras and Abde Shahzada Bohras just wallow in idol worship. Hallelujah!!!

We dont have because at that timet there was no Photography technology. Saudi are doing shirk along with us by keeping the phots of Kings & Princes at every place /muttawa office/airport govt buillding. ect. Glad to know their ignorance.
Worship . Idol Worship - Wow.. Accusation.. Accusation. no substantiation

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