Ali’s Message (رضّى الله عنه) in Nahjul Balagha

[anajmi]

Are these from amongst the 6 that I have mentioned earlier?

[Muslim First]

Here is some quote from Nizaris Ismaili Pov

This has been quoted in our forum and is from an authoritative sunni source:

Imam Hanbal quotes in his Musnad (as do Ibn Shafi’i in his Manaqib, Mir Seyyed Ali Hamadani in Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, Dailami in Firdaus and others with minor variations) in quoting the "Hadith of Creation":

Prophet said: "I and Ali were created of the same Divine Light 14,000 years before Adam was created. From the loins of the Prophet Adam and through his holy progeny, the Light was inherited by Abdu'l-Muttalib, and from him it was divided and inherited by Abdullah, (father of the Prophet) and Abu Talib, (father of Ali). I was granted prophethood, and Ali was granted the caliphate."

It is the same divine light in both the Prophet (saws) and the Imams. I see no difference in the two with respect to this. This is not an Ismaili hadith. Nevertheless, I dont think that the Prophet or any Imam would be happy with us trying to be the judge in comparing the two. We can at least agree that they are both much much higher than any of us.

Source

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=7090

[aliabbas_aa]

Why has anybody still not posted details of how they practically follow ahlelbayt, from which sources they take their knowledge from?

[Muslim First]

Why has anybody still not posted details of how they practically follow ahlelbayt, from which sources they take their knowledge from?

Same way Hindus follow stones and derive knowledge from Idols

[sixfeetunder]

Why has anybody still not posted details of how they practically follow ahlelbayt, from which sources they take their knowledge from?

Same way Hindus follow stones and derive knowledge from Idols

Any person can google it. But your aim is not to get an answer. Your aim is to ask for an answer and then start ridiculing and calling names. Your only intent is to somehow label Shiites as idol-worshipers. Have fear of Allah and stop this cheap sectarianism, for the sake of the Prophet you claim to follow. May Allah soften your hardened hearts and give you the wisdom to identify Muslims as Muslims and not as idol-worshipers. It is a grave sin to label a Muslim as an idol-worshiper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Shia_books

[Muslim First]

6'U
Any person can google it. But your aim is not to get an answer.

Can you do it and atleast post link?
Once you do it then we will have further question on your post. Please do not run away.
JAK

[sixfeetunder]

6'U
Any person can google it. But your aim is not to get an answer.

Can you do it and atleast post link?
Once you do it then we will have further question on your post. Please do not run away.
JAK

If you stop feigning amnesia, you will notice that I have posted a link which enumerates all Shii'te source books.

[Muslim First]

6'U
Any person can google it. But your aim is not to get an answer.

Can you do it and atleast post link?
Once you do it then we will have further question on your post. Please do not run away.
JAK

If you stop feigning amnesia, you will notice that I have posted a link which enumerates all Shii'te source books.

So I am suppose to read all these books to figure out how Ahle Bait lead Shia today?

[anajmi]

Bro, Muslim First,

You have to ask really specific questions. For eg. ask our shia brothers how the Ahlul Bayt have recommended we fast during the month of Ramadan. Or how the Ahlul Bayt have suggested moon sighting to begin the month of Ramadan. Then ask them to point out the reference from these books. Then we want to ask them how the Ahlul Bayt have recommended we should observe the obligatory prayers. Then let us ask them about how divorces and iddah procedures have been recommended by the Ahlul Bayt. These are the easy questions. We will get to the difficult ones after this.

[humble_servant_us]

The questions which you have asked are related to furoo-e-deen. Here below is a link which will give you answers to all your queries.

http://www.al-islam.org/laws/

In shia islam we have something called Taqleed which is following a Mujtahid in matters of religious laws. Mujtahid is a jurist competent enough to deduce precise inferences regarding the commandments from the holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the holy Prophet by the process of Ijtihad. Ijtihad literally means striving and exerting. Technically as a term of juri sprudence it signifies the application by a jurist of all his faculties to the consideration of the authorities of law with a view to finding out what in all probability is the law. In other words Ijtihad means making deductions in matters of law, in the cases to which no express text is applicable. (See, Baqir Sadr, A Short History of 'llmul Usul, ISP, 1984).

[anajmi]

The link states

These are the Islamic Laws according to the Fatawa of Ayatullah al Uzama Syed Ali al-Husaini Seestani.

I was looking for fatwas of the Ahlul Bayt. Do you consider this Ayatullah to be Ahlul Bayt?

[humble_servant_us]

Ayatullah's are mujtahids who are competent enough to deduce precise inferences regarding the commandments from the holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the holy Prophet by the process of Ijtihad.

A mujtahid strives for deriving the laws of the shariah from its sources which are:

1. the Quraan;
2. the sunnah which mean the traditions (ahadees) and the practice of the Prophet and the Imaams of ahlul bait(as)
3. reasoning (aql);
4. consensus of the mujtahids (ijmaa).

A valuable link to understand The Role of Ijtihad in Legislation
http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/ijtih ... lation.htm

[anajmi]

I would appreciate it if you give me all the links at the same time. I have a lot of time on my hands to go through these dozens of links with hundreds of books each to find out answers to simple questions. No wonder people cannot figure out how they follow the Ahlul Bayt.

[humble_servant_us]

The shia school of thought has a treasure of knowledge which is nowadays easily available on the net. I understand you have some mind set of shias for which probably you do not want to appreciate their literature. I would appreciate if you have time you can go through the books written by shia scholars on various topics and if it appeals to your intellect accept it and if not you can just leave it.

[sixfeetunder]

If you stop feigning amnesia, you will notice that I have posted a link which enumerates all Shii'te source books.

So I am suppose to read all these books to figure out how Ahle Bait lead Shia today?

The Prophet and his Ahlul bayt are the cornerstone of knowledge for Shii'tes, just as The Prophet and his companions are the cornerstone for the Sunnis. Is it that hard to understand?

Is one supposed to read everything written by the Muhaddith and Four imams of the Ahlul Sunnah to figure out how The Prophet and his companions lead the Sunnis today?!?!?

[Muslim First]

If you stop feigning amnesia, you will notice that I have posted a link which enumerates all Shii'te source books.

So I am suppose to read all these books to figure out how Ahle Bait lead Shia today?

The Prophet and his Ahlul bayt are the cornerstone of knowledge for Shii'tes,
can you quote Qur'anic command making A e B cornerstone?
just as The Prophet and his companions are the cornerstone for the Sunnis.
Is it that hard to understand?
If it was so simple we would not have endless debate for last 1400 or so years.

for Sunnis only Qur'an and Sunna count. Interpretations of Sahabas do not count if they are contrary to Qur'an and Sunna.
Is one supposed to read everything written by the Muhaddith and Four imams of the Ahlul Sunnah to figure out how The Prophet and his companions lead the Sunnis today?!?!?
Common Md. Joe does not need to to know taqleed of all 4. He only follows one. Example: Hanafi in India. For other religious issue in his life he seeks advice of local priest and usually no cost

[Muslim First]

Ayatullah's are mujtahids who are competent enough to deduce precise inferences regarding the commandments from the holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the holy Prophet by the process of Ijtihad.

A mujtahid strives for deriving the laws of the shariah from its sources which are:

1. the Quraan;
2. the sunnah which mean the traditions (ahadees) and the practice of the Prophet and the Imaams of ahlul bait(as)
3. reasoning (aql);
4. consensus of the mujtahids (ijmaa).

A valuable link to understand The Role of Ijtihad in Legislation
http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/ijtih ... lation.htm

So Sunna of Imams stopped after the rose of disappearance of 12 th. and now Ayatullas rule the 12vers, and Dais or pretenders of Imamat the rest of Shias!

What is the need for 1000+ year old Imam?

[sixfeetunder]

If you stop feigning amnesia, you will notice that I have posted a link which enumerates all Shii'te source books.

So I am suppose to read all these books to figure out how Ahle Bait lead Shia today?

The Prophet and his Ahlul bayt are the cornerstone of knowledge for Shii'tes,
can you quote Qur'anic command making A e B cornerstone?
just as The Prophet and his companions are the cornerstone for the Sunnis.
Is it that hard to understand?
If it was so simple we would not have endless debate for last 1400 or so years.

for Sunnis only Qur'an and Sunna count. Interpretations of Sahabas do not count if they are contrary to Qur'an and Sunna.
Is one supposed to read everything written by the Muhaddith and Four imams of the Ahlul Sunnah to figure out how The Prophet and his companions lead the Sunnis today?!?!?
Common Md. Joe does not need to to know taqleed of all 4. He only follows one. Example: Hanafi in India. For other religious issue in his life he seeks advice of local priest and usually no cost

There are various verses in the Quran which point towards the Ahlul Bayt. Quoting them here is a futile exercise as you and your brother will pounce upon them like mad wolves and start bickering. I have had experiences with people like you. You have no intention of fruitful dialogue. All you care about is cheap sectarianism. You have a preconceived notion about anything which has the word 'Ali' or 'Shia' in it. Come with an empty cup. Your cup is already full. It won't accept anything other than what is already in it.

If interpretations of Sahaba do not count, why is Triple Talaq valid in the Sunni world. Millions of Muslim women have been ravaged due to this Bedouin ruling (read bid'ah) of Umar ibn Al Khattab. So don't lie to yourself. There are various other interpretations which are squarely against the Quran and Sunnah but still 'count' among the Ahle Sunnah.

Just as Mr.Joe follows one dead sunni imam, Shias follow one living Mujtahid.

[anajmi]

Triple Talaq

What is the Ahlul Bayts method of Talaq. Can you post it over here or do I have to go through a thousand shia books?

There are various verses in the Quran which point towards the Ahlul Bayt. Quoting them here is a futile exercise as you and your brother will pounce upon them like mad wolves and start bickering.

You coward.

Anyway, I normally welcome the chance to post an ayah of the Quran. People shouldn't be afraid of what other people have to say about your faith and that too on any anonymous forum, unless ofcourse, you aren't sure about it in the first place.

Come with an empty cup. Your cup is already full. It won't accept anything other than what is already in it.

Ok. I am here with an empty cup. Please don't ask me to fill it up with a thousand books that I have to go through.

Shias follow one living Mujtahid.

I thought shias followed the Ahlul Bayt. Oh nevermind!!

[humble_servant_us]

What is the Ahlul Bayts method of Talaq. Can you post it over here or do I have to go through a thousand shia books?

Here you can get all the details of Divorce. http://www.al-islam.org/laws/divorce.html

You coward.
Anyway, I normally welcome the chance to post an ayah of the Quran. People shouldn't be afraid of what other people have to say about your faith and that too on any anonymous forum, unless ofcourse, you aren't sure about it in the first place.

This is not at all being coward, this is being wise. Shias have never shyed away from discussion and debating faith , it is some other sects which do not allow their followers to question or reason out their beliefs. We have always encouraged academic discussions.

We can easily list down ayats from quran but as quoted by SFU it is a futile exercise because the intention here is not to learn or know about shia islam but to insult our beliefs without any reason. As I said earlier if you are sincerely intrested in knowing about shia islam we can give you a list of books/lectures which will help you know why Ahlul bait(As) is important to us.

[anajmi]

humble servant,

I am not interested in going through your list of books. If I can insult your beliefs which are in a few ayahs of the Quran, imagine what I will do if I go through a 1000 shia books!!

[humble_servant_us]

I am not interested in going through your list of books.

That is a honest answer.

[anajmi]

Since you claim to have gone through the books (which I seriously doubt) can you give me the answers to the questions posted above about how the Ahlul Bayt have recommended talaq and iddah and the rest?

[humble_servant_us]

I have never claimed i have read all the books, there is a ocean of knowledge and it is not possible to know everything
I am just a simple student of islam who wants to learn, gather knowledge and move forward in a journey seeking closeness towards Allah(swt)

You can give me list of sunni books or lectures and I am open to read and hear them. I will not show dis-intrest in it like you have shown it for the shia literature.

Regarding divorce i have already given you a link which are rulings from a Mujtahid who practices Ijtehad based on conditions mentioned in earlier posting.

[anajmi]

Well, the conclusion is that you do not have a clue how you follow the Ahlul Bayt. You do not "follow" the Ahlul Bayt in anyway. The only thing you do is to say that you follow the Ahlul Bayt.

Look at these couple of items under divorce and iddah.

2507. * A man who divorces his wife must be adult and sane, but if a boy of ten years of age divorces his wife, precaution must be exercised.

2519. A wife who is under nine and who is in her menopause will not be required to observe any waiting period. It means that, even if the husband has had sexual intercourse with her, she can remarry immediately after being divorced.

2520. * If a wife who has completed nine years of her age and is not in menopause, is divorced by her husband after sexual intercourse, it is necessary for her to observe the waiting period of divorce. The waiting period of a free woman is that after her husband divorces her during her Pak period, she should wait till she sees Haidh twice and becomes Pak. Thereafter, as soon as she sees Haidh for the third time, her waiting period will be over and she can marry again. If, however, a husband divorces his wife before having sexual intercourse with her, there is no waiting period for her and she can marry another man immediately after being divorced, except if she finds traces of her husband's semen in her private part, then she should observe Iddah.

Can these be traced back to the Ahlul Bayt? That is what I am looking for.

[aliabbas_aa]

If you stop feigning amnesia, you will notice that I have posted a link which enumerates all Shii'te source books.

So I am suppose to read all these books to figure out how Ahle Bait lead Shia today?

The Prophet and his Ahlul bayt are the cornerstone of knowledge for Shii'tes, just as The Prophet and his companions are the cornerstone for the Sunnis. Is it that hard to understand?

Is one supposed to read everything written by the Muhaddith and Four imams of the Ahlul Sunnah to figure out how The Prophet and his companions lead the Sunnis today?!?!?

Its so ironical shias dont even have a tafseer of Quran from the ahlel bayt! at the same time many would claim that only ahlel bayt has its true interpretation!

[humble_servant_us]

Can these be traced back to the Ahlul Bayt? That is what I am looking for.

If this cannot be traced back to the Sunnah of the prophet(pbuh), it has no value. You can talk to his local representative and he should be able to provide you answers of how this ruling is made.

Personally I have put my trust on the knowledge of Ay. Sistani based on conditions required to select a Mujtahid (described in chapter of taqlid in islamic laws link), so for day to day religious duties i trust his rulings would be according to the quran and sunnah of the prophet(pbuh).

However for aqida which is basically the usool-e-deen we do not follow any mujtahid but we follow it by proofs, or References. This part of the religion should not be followed blindly but logical reasoning should be looked for, for example, if Allah is one, then one should search for logical reasons, why is allah one, not just blindly follow it.

Its so ironical shias dont even have a tafseer of Quran from the ahlel bayt! at the same time many would claim that only ahlel bayt has its true interpretation!

What is the irony in this.
One of the most popular tafseer is Al-Mizan . In the preface the author describes the method used in finding out the verses of Quran.

http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/

[aliabbas_aa]

Tafsir Al-Mizan
By the late Allamah Muhammad Hussain Tabatabai (WHOS THAT??)

AND NOT BY ANY AHLEBAYT OR IMAM!!

[anajmi]

humble servant

If this cannot be traced back to the Sunnah of the prophet(pbuh), it has no value. You can talk to his local representative and he should be able to provide you answers of how this ruling is made.

I am unable to trace this back to the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). Hence the link that you have given to me for divorce has no value. Thanks.

[humble_servant_us]

I am unable to trace this back to the Sunnah of the prophet (saw).

Fair enough. If you have researched enough to find out it is not from Sunnah of the prophet(pbuh), you should not follow it.