Just Wonder????

[anajmi]

They have just not got round to writing them.

They've been too busy making rotis and cakes for their idols.

What a bunch of useless slackers these Ali worshippers are!!

[zinger]

="humanbeing"]I don’t know about favoritism point, like man being favorite then angel kinda sounds childish. Angel served Allah much more than recently created man.

correct me if im wrong but i believe that Allah commanded all Angels to bow to Adam, saying that this is His greatest creations, hence, i believe that man was His favoured creation, i could of course be wrong on this

="humanbeing"] So adam disobeyed & punished to be sent on earth, which is surely a tough life as compared to heaven, yet Allah bestows Adam (mankind) with bounties of nature and elevated Adam as superior being and prophet.

Again, this is what i said earlier too, man elevated Adam to the status of prophet, not Allah, and that too because he was the first creation of God to walk the Earth. this is my understanding

="humanbeing"] Some put forward this argument, the difference is because after the disobedient act. Adam was regretful of his mistake, while Iblees remained arrogant. Allah being merciful rewarded adam with prophethood, and iblees’s arrogance punished with shaitaanhood ! well that makes sense !

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or you mean it, but yes, this seems to make most sense

[dawedaar]

Al-Noor - Each of Quran's ayats have several meanings as far as I know and hence we see several interpretations of Shariat/Quran today, each claiming to be the rightful interpreter. So you taking each word of Quran literally would be a stupid thing to do. There is always hidden meaning called Taawil which requires a dedicated approach to learning Hakikat and can't be discussed here or online. All of us go to schools and colleges to learn properly right? So if you need to learn Quran, you have to be dedicated and get knowledge from trusted sources whatever or whoever you trust on.

Brother Birader,

look I am shia of Ali but when it comes to tawil I personally prefer to stick with what Quran says no matter how childish it sounds.

if Quran says it was tree, its tree for me.

I dont need any extra explanation for any thing, my Imaan is on gaib and I love to be like that.

I dont want many adam and I dont want many avatars of Ali as ismailis loves to talk.

for me Ali was a khalifah and first Imaam and sucessor of Muhammed(s). nothing more nothing less.


and btw Iblis was not shaitaan until he denied to repent to ALLAH for his crime, neither Adam was obeying his wife, Adam ate seed of wheat (gandum) by his own will and when he realized he has wrong he repented for it.

[Al-Noor]

This ayat of Al Quran will satisfy all tawil lovers. I already said Quran has many meanings but its best right now in absense of Imam to carry the meaning in literal way.

Chapter (54) sūrat l-qamar (The Moon)

Sahih International: And We have certainly made the Qur'an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?

Pickthall: And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?

Yusuf Ali: And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

Shakir: And certainly We have made the Quran easy for remembrance, but is there anyone who will mind?

Muhammad Sarwar: We have made the Quran easy to understand, but is there anyone who would pay attention?

Mohsin Khan: And We have indeed made the Quran easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?

Arberry: Now We have made the Koran easy for Remembrance. Is there any that will remember?

[dawedaar]

If Quran was easy to understand, you wouldn't see the conditions of muslims and muslim world as it is today! There wouldn't be radical muslims ready to kill themselves at the drop of a hat!

This ayat of Al Quran will satisfy all tawil lovers. I already said Quran has many meanings but its best right now in absense of Imam to carry the meaning in literal way.

Chapter (54) sūrat l-qamar (The Moon)

Sahih International: And We have certainly made the Qur'an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?

Pickthall: And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?

Yusuf Ali: And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

Shakir: And certainly We have made the Quran easy for remembrance, but is there anyone who will mind?

Muhammad Sarwar: We have made the Quran easy to understand, but is there anyone who would pay attention?

Mohsin Khan: And We have indeed made the Quran easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?

Arberry: Now We have made the Koran easy for Remembrance. Is there any that will remember?

[Biradar]

This ayat of Al Quran will satisfy all tawil lovers. I already said Quran has many meanings but its best right now in absense of Imam to carry the meaning in literal way.

Chapter (54) sūrat l-qamar (The Moon)

Sahih International: And We have certainly made the Qur'an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?

I do not want to prolong this discussion much longer, as it seems pointless. However, just some thoughts.

First, the person who brought taweel is Ali bin Abi Taalib, based on the teachings of the prophet. The prophet himself revealed the taweel to his close companions, but his mission was to introduce Islam in the milieu of jaahiliyaat which existed in his time. Hence, the foundations of the taweel was left to Ali, who, as we recite every day after each namaaz, was the Aasas (foundation) of the imammat and the waasi of the prophet. Each prophet's waasi teaches the taaweel. Hence, "love of taweel" basically translates to love of Ali, which is a prerequisite for a Shia.

Now, it is fine if you say you will stick the zaahir meanings. However, that does not invalidate that such meanings exist. Incidentally, in the absence of the imam, the da'i al mutlaq sits in his place, and for all practical purposes is the imam, and holds the same authority to teach the taweel as does the imam.

Now, coming to the ayaat you quoted. (Q 54:17). The word "lildhik'ri" needs to be first understood correctly, before trying to figure out what this ayaat means.

Again, the story of Aadam is not what is appears to be at first sight. The Quran often hints through symbols of concepts which are on a different level of reality than the physical material world we live in. Also, when the Quran hints to real events, the meaning may be different than that is obvious. For example, the Surat Yusuf. In Q 12:23-25 it seems on first sight that when the woman tries to seduce Yusuf, he first says no, but then he expresses interest and then again stops. This is unseemly behavior for a prophet. In reality, this is really indicating something different.

In any case, my larger point is the following: those who think that the Quran is easy, simple straightforward, need to explain why a easy simple, straightforward book needed a prophet to explain, why 1400 years of commentary does not suffice, and why the Quran itself says that the words of Allah can never be exhausted even if the seas were turned to ink and all trees to pen, and the sea was exhausted and seven more seas were to replace it (Q 31:27, Q 18:109, etc).

Finally, those who keep asking "where is taweel?" are like those blind people who are dying of thirst in front of a well of water. When pointed out to them that they can drink from the water, they shake their head denying it even exists. They will die of thirst. Pointless going on further.

[Al-Noor]

If Quran was easy to understand, you wouldn't see the conditions of muslims and muslim world as it is today! There wouldn't be radical muslims ready to kill themselves at the drop of a hat!

there was a jhahiliyat in people even in the era of Muhammed(s) time and also people were killing each other even in the presence of Muhammed(s) this doesnt means they were not understanding Al Quran. people are of different levels even few mullah who claims to know all tawil and haqiqat doesn't feel shy to extort money from poor. understanding of Quran has nothing to do with it.

[Al-Noor]

if tawil was really this important Imaam Ali would have wrote it and distributed it among people, truth is there is no single copy available which says " this is tawil of Quran"....


Actually tawil is revealed upon the mehboob banda of ALLAH and it doesn't requires any degree and diplomas.

[Biradar]

if tawil was really this important Imaam Ali would have wrote it and distributed it among people, truth is there is no single copy available which says " this is tawil of Quran"....


Actually tawil is revealed upon the mehboob banda of ALLAH and it doesn't requires any degree and diplomas.

There are several (count in hundreds) of books on taweel and haqiqaat. Some are from Ismaili/Fatimid/Tayabees, some from Sufis, some from Shias. There are many orations of Ali which explicate the concepts behind taweel and haqiqaat. They may not be found in the standard canonical collections, but that is because the standard jaahil mullah found them hard to digest, and wanted the aashiq of Allah, the prophet and Ali to be killed. Hence, for most part, this literature has remained out of sight from the masses. Does not mean it is not available.

Also, you mentioned money. It has nothing to with it. Even if some mad mullah type says pay me, pay me, does not make the reality of the Quranic meanings false. Just like some mad baboon mullah running around cutting off heads and burning people does not invalidate the essentially egalitarian message of Islam.

[anajmi]

For example, the Surat Yusuf. In Q 12:23-25 it seems on first sight that when the woman tries to seduce Yusuf, he first says no, but then he expresses interest and then again stops. This is unseemly behavior for a prophet. In reality, this is really indicating something different.

Actually, this ayah is a great example. When understood correctly it helps us humans to strive to become of great character like the prophets. It shows us how the prophets kept their temptations in check because of their faith and fear of Allah. Idol worshippers on the other hand cannot digest the fact that their idols can fall into temptation and so they need to create taawil to continue languishing in shirk!

[Al-Noor]

if tawil was really this important Imaam Ali would have wrote it and distributed it among people, truth is there is no single copy available which says " this is tawil of Quran"....


Actually tawil is revealed upon the mehboob banda of ALLAH and it doesn't requires any degree and diplomas.

There are several (count in hundreds) of books on taweel and haqiqaat. Some are from Ismaili/Fatimid/Tayabees, some from Sufis, some from Shias. There are many orations of Ali which explicate the concepts behind taweel and haqiqaat. They may not be found in the standard canonical collections, but that is because the standard jaahil mullah found them hard to digest, and wanted the aashiq of Allah, the prophet and Ali to be killed. Hence, for most part, this literature has remained out of sight from the masses. Does not mean it is not available.

Also, you mentioned money. It has nothing to with it. Even if some mad mullah type says pay me, pay me, does not make the reality of the Quranic meanings false. Just like some mad baboon mullah running around cutting off heads and burning people does not invalidate the essentially egalitarian message of Islam.

sorry to say this but you are a liar.

1) there is no single copy of tawil or any such thing available from Imam Ali himself.
2) there was no mad mullah available in time of Imam Ali who was trying to kill Imam Ali, concept of Mullah came after a long time.
3)tawil can be a really a good toy for present ismaili to fit ayat on each other and prove them self correct so its best to stick with literal meaning of Quran. those who think literal meaning of Quran is childish should have a thorough check up of their brain from some good doctor.

[dawedaar]

One consequence of taking Quran literally is the catastrophic interpretation of word 'Jihad' which many radicals have used as a means to kill non muslims. See for yourself where interpreting Quran's word literally can take you!

This ayat of Al Quran will satisfy all tawil lovers. I already said Quran has many meanings but its best right now in absense of Imam to carry the meaning in literal way.

Chapter (54) sūrat l-qamar (The Moon)

Sahih International: And We have certainly made the Qur'an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?

Pickthall: And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?

Yusuf Ali: And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

Shakir: And certainly We have made the Quran easy for remembrance, but is there anyone who will mind?

Muhammad Sarwar: We have made the Quran easy to understand, but is there anyone who would pay attention?

Mohsin Khan: And We have indeed made the Quran easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?

Arberry: Now We have made the Koran easy for Remembrance. Is there any that will remember?

[Al-Noor]

jihad is perfectly explained in Quran even as literal meaning, Quran explicitly literally denounces any kind of killing. only idiots would think Quran promotes violence of any kind. no tawil is needed to understand that islam promotes peace.

[Biradar]

sorry to say this but you are a liar.

1) there is no single copy of tawil or any such thing available from Imam Ali himself.
2) there was no mad mullah available in time of Imam Ali who was trying to kill Imam Ali, concept of Mullah came after a long time.
3)tawil can be a really a good toy for present ismaili to fit ayat on each other and prove them self correct so its best to stick with literal meaning of Quran. those who think literal meaning of Quran is childish should have a thorough check up of their brain from some good doctor.

I am trying to be patient with you. However, you seem adamant on being like the blind, Yazid loving goat on this board, and his awaal cheela. You claim that you love the Ahle-bait and that you are a Shia. However, you are unable to see the key role of Ali.

Also, you seem to be unaware that the mad mullahs during the time of Ali were called One, Two, Three, Muaawiya, and then the Khaarjiietes, one of whom, Ibn Muljim, who killed Ali. Who were these if not mad mullahs? Or you don't even know basics of Islamic history?

There are a huge number of sermons of Ali which are essentially expositions of taweel and haqiqaat ideas. You need to look in the right places. Thats all from me. You can persist in your childish and infantile ideas, or grow up. Its up to you. As I said, there is a well of water in front of you. You can drink from it, or deny it exists and die of thirst. Your choice.

[Al-Noor]

Quran is enough for believers.
nothing is enough for those who are doubtful.


"Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." - Muhammed(s)

In the book "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Saeed Al-Khudry said,
" I asked the messenger of God a permission to write his hadiths, but he refused to give me a permission."

[Biradar]

Quran is enough for believers.
nothing is enough for those who are doubtful.


"Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." - Muhammed(s)

In the book "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Saeed Al-Khudry said,
" I asked the messenger of God a permission to write his hadiths, but he refused to give me a permission."

Wow. You know who you sound like? Umar. When the prophet was on his death bed and asked for something to write with, Umar said 'Verily, the illness has now fully possessed the prophet, and you have the Qur'an, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us." Then Umar prevented the prophet from writing down what he wanted.

In reality, the Prophet has left behind the Qu'ran and his progeny. Hence, the Qu'ran is not enough. One needs his progeny to interpret the Qur'anic message for us.

[Al-Noor]

Quran is enough for believers.
nothing is enough for those who are doubtful.


"Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." - Muhammed(s)

In the book "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Saeed Al-Khudry said,
" I asked the messenger of God a permission to write his hadiths, but he refused to give me a permission."

Wow. You know who you sound like? Umar. When the prophet was on his death bed and asked for something to write with, Umar said 'Verily, the illness has now fully possessed the prophet, and you have the Qur'an, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us." Then Umar prevented the prophet from writing down what he wanted.

In reality, the Prophet has left behind the Qu'ran and his progeny. Hence, the Qu'ran is not enough. One needs his progeny to interpret the Qur'anic message for us.

was you standing beside bed of prophet Muhammed(s) to witness all this?

why would prophet Muhammed(s) wait for his last moment to write something? he could have wrote in his entire life? Muhammed(s) did not even wrote Quran which was most important message of his life time.

btw right now Imam is absent so its best to just stick with Al Quran, unless for you KQ or Muffy are rightful dai.(we already know their amaal well).

you are a lost case and ismailism has made you ismaili but not muslim.