Kuchh Ajeeb Manners , Tameez That I Remarked

[Al Zulfiqar]

Brother you said its confirmed by Kothar, i have never come across any such announcement. if you have any thing which can prove the same kindly provide as this will provide me something of substance to refute my Aamil/source claim of 12 lac Dawoodi Bohra's. and regarding the downfall in numbers from Europe USA and Parts of Maharashtra again some irrefutable document will be much appreciated other wise people whom i will ask will deny as off course you will understand

can YOU or the amil provide any such irrefutable document for the claim of 12 lacs? if neither side can provide such documents, then whose word should we go by? ask yrself why we are wrestling with such a silly issue today. is it not due to the deliberate policies of the kothar to hide facts, obfuscate details and make false claims? what are they hiding and why?

[Omega]

by Al Zulfiqar

can YOU or the amil provide any such irrefutable document for the claim of 12 lacs? if neither side can provide such documents, then whose word should we go by? ask yrself why we are wrestling with such a silly issue today. is it not due to the deliberate policies of the kothar to hide facts, obfuscate details and make false claims? what are they hiding and why?


@ Al Zulfiqar

Brother Kothar has never made any such claim. Like Brother Merchant786 was referring to population equaling to 6 lacs i asked some people and they gave me a figure of 12 now to refute their claim i had asked for some document as i was sure Merchant786 would have some thing.

as i deduce from your statement that no such document is available then we both will stick to our data you with 6 lac and i with 12. either side can provide any thing of substance whenever they lay their Hands on.

OK might be Kothar is hiding facts as mentioned by you, but you can at least verify the data on Reformists numbers with some substantial neutrally verifiable proof of course

[master.b00t]

what the main shariyat of shiya and shiya ke hissab se hame kaise rehna chahiye kya ye shiyaism , kothar alag alag he to khothar walo ne jo bhi jod diya he wo kya kya galat he ? aur agar as a shiya hum rehna chahe to is kothar se kaise alag padenge kya ye salaam , raza, grow beard,zakaat and other things ye kothar ki "Ghar Ni Dhoraji" chhe to as a shiya hume kaise rehna chahiye , ya to hum as a shiya hi rehne lage to kya koi dikkat he ? kyonki hum shiyaism ka to paalan kar chuke to baki aur kuchh zaroori nahi he, is par thoda light daalne ki taklif le .

[Al Zulfiqar]

@ Al Zulfiqar

Brother Kothar has never made any such claim.

omega,

you contradict yourself. this is what you said earlier: "as this will provide me something of substance to refute my Aamil/source claim of 12 lac Dawoodi Bohra's. do you see the word 'amil' there? where do you think the amil's claims come from, the kothar or narendra modi? or are you naive enough to believe that amils are free to say whatever they like??

[Omega]

@Al Zulfiqar,

Brother it was off the record remark, thats why i asked if you can provide me something which can refute his claim. other wise i take it on face value

[Humsafar]

Not a single act of the prophet was without the permission of Allah or something that Allah did not like.

And you know that how exactly? And the questions is not rhetorical!

[anajmi]

This is when a little study of the quran and the sunnah of the prophet would come in handy. Allah says in the quran to obey him and obey the prophet. So if the prophet has asked you to do something, then it is from Allah or with the premission of Allah or what Allah has preferred.

[Humsafar]

Yes, the problem is "little" study. And if you're going to resolve every question by "Allah said so" then there's nothing much to be said. Allah seems to be your handy cop-out!

[anajmi]

Yes, the problem is "little" study.

I was actually talking about you. If you had done a little study of the quran and the sunnah it would've come in handy. But I am sure you already knew that.

And if you're going to resolve every question by "Allah said so" then there's nothing much to be said.

What did you expect? Stephen Hawking said so? Now will you learn to shup up while talking about religion?

[seeker110]

Allah says in the quran to obey him and obey the prophet.

If prophet does what Allah wants,then it is sufficient to say obey Allah.

[anajmi]

seeker,

I do not expect you to understand the quran and Islam anymore than Humsafar does, but you could at least pretend to understand it by not saying anything.

If it was sufficient to say obey Allah, then there would be idiots questioning every act of the prophet and they would've required the quran to tell them about how and when to shave their beards.

[Humsafar]

What did you expect? Stephen Hawking said so? Now will you learn to shup up while talking about religion?

.. we're getting hot under the collar, aren't we? Actually I was talking about your "little" knowledge which compels you to resort to Allah and Quran when cornered.

[Al Zulfiqar]

@Al Zulfiqar,

Brother it was off the record remark, thats why i asked if you can provide me something which can refute his claim. other wise i take it on face value

omega,

seems that you are suffering from 'foot-in-the-mouth disease'.. you said you needed documented proof to refute your AMIL and some other un-named sources. this statement is here in your own words in black and white. how can you now claim that it "was off the record remark"??

that is the problem with indoctrinated people like you. you can take any crap at face value if it comes from the tyrant clergy, but will not give another thought to the truth coming from others. that is what is precisely described as 'kibr' in islam.

[anajmi]

which compels you to resort to Allah and Quran when cornered.

Again, a completely redundant point. Allah and his quran is not my last resort. It is my only resort. Are you just figuring that out? Hopefully, you won't let me make that same remark about you.

[porus]

Allah and his quran is not my last resort. It is my only resort.

Please correct yourself. It is one of the Quran's translations in English that is your only resort.

[anajmi]

porus,

I am still waiting for those hadith and the evidence of different qurans with different words and ayahs that you said you had. And no, I wasn't referring to the translations. I was referring to the actual message of Allah. And unless you have the "authentic interpretation", you are simply wasting your time. An arabic translation is just as good as an english translation.

[SBM]

Br. Anjami
HUMBLE REQUEST PLEASE TAKE ALL YOUR POSTS REGARDING RELIGION TO "ISLAM TODAY" AND LEAVE THIS FORUM FOR BOHRA DISCUSION
ADMINSTRATION, PLEASE ANYTIME THE ORIGINAL THREAD CHANGES TO RELIGION OF ANJAMI AND OTHERS COULD YOU BE KIND ENOUGH TO DIVERT IT TO ISLAM TODAY
thank you for your understanding.

[anajmi]

Sister Oma (you might keep pretending you are not but you are a sister),

I DON'T CARE WHERE THE THREAD IS TO RESPOND. I DON'T CARE IF ADMIN MOVES IT AROUND. THERE IS A LINK CALLED "NEW POSTS" ON THE TOP. THAT IS THE ONE THAT I USE TO OPEN NEW THREADS AND NOT THE BOHRA INDEX. SO THE PROBLEM IS YOURS AND NOT MINE. SEND A PM TO ADMIN TO FIX THIS. I CANNOT AND DON'T CARE.

[porus]

anajmi,

I agree with Oma. Take any discussion which is off-topic from Bohras and Reform to one of the other fora. For your pet subjects of Quran, Islam Today is the most relevant. Bohras generally do not participate in the discussion of the Quran, which you will have noticed. For this, they should be totally ashamed.

For your information the link 'New Topic' appears on the top of each forum. Please use it.

Regarding seven ahruf, the following is okay, but not an entirely satisfactory, link. However, it is not bad for start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%27at#cite_note-tab-5

Please bear in mind that Samuel Green and Adrian Brocket who are cited in the references tend to be Anti-Muslim polemicists. You may wish to read them with a view to challenging them. Other Muslim have admirably done this.

[seeker110]

Anajmi, bro you march to the tune of diff drummer,it is your right.I follow instincts and conscience.You may think its wrong.This is all Allah gave me to play with.Let him be the judge.Its not your responsibility to correct people.Stop barking.

[anajmi]

porus,

As you may have noticed, I do not create a lot of topics. I simply respond. So the use of the New Topic link would be counter productive as it would tend to go off in a tangent and hence loose the current context. I think all this needs to be managed by the admin. The admin can move threads around to different forums. When the discussion tends to go towards Islam, then move the thread to Islam and then when it goes back to discussing bohras then the admin should move it back. Or there should be some kind of an algorithm that detects the word "Dai" in the post and moves the thread to Bohras and Reforms and when it detects words like "Islam", "quran", "sunnah", "hadith" move it away from bohras and reform. As I do not believe one has anything to do with the other.

Now as far as reciting the quran is concerned, I have already conceded that there are different ways of reciting the quran. For eg. in surah fatiha, you can read "ihdinas siratal" or you can read "uhdinas siratal" based upon whether you are taking a break after the previous ayah or not. You can also read Maaliki Yaumuddin or you can read Maliki Yaumuddin. Also, Dhalika in arabic is pronounced with an alif but written without an alif. There are many other such variations.

On the wikipedia article (I didn't think you would be referring to wikipedia) the section that I was most interested in, was "Difference Between Ahruf & Qira'at". However, when I went through it, I still wasn't able to figure out the difference. I couldn't find anything that would lead me to believe that there were different qurans (different words and ayahs).


seeker,

I follow instincts and conscience.

Please do that. Do not suggest what the prophet or Allah should or shouldn't do.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Anajmi, Stop barking.

[accountability]

omega wrote

@ Saif

Salaam

dont you think in the first instance that Mulla saheb would have thought you are some government dignitary and has come to pay his respect, and as its customary and out of respect for local tradition that our politicians and some government officials wear our Topi when they come to our place, so a benefit of doubt should be given. and you have only mentioned that you were attired in a western dress and were in CM's car.


for second instance:

when you have gone to Ziyarat, didnt you knew that Saya kurta is necessary, and why will any one lend you thiers when every one is in hurry to rush to their job

salaam Omega

Welcome to this forum. it is heart warming to see some one from the administration side discussing logically and in cultured way.

if I may reply to your above post. First Bohras are not sub human species, so they can be treated however a mullah, sheikh, amil or a shahzada like. one should also bear in mind that dawat e hadiyah is run with the funds entirely donated by bohras. so in my opinion ordinary bohras should be given atleast as much respect as to one getting out of CM's car ( who ever he might be). it is rather cruel to say OK to humiliting treatment meted out by a mulla, whose salary in an indirect way being paid by the very person who he is misbehaing. In this era if a government personal misbehaves we all say that he should remember that he is paid by our taxes, so is the case with all dawat e hadiya or jamat employes.

It is also oxymoron to regulate such hitler style regulations regarding every thing. I have never seen or experienced at any other mazar or dargah any dress code. If one wants to pay homage to mazar one should be allowed. As a show of respect one may be asked to cover head (though it should not be mandatory) otherwise asking people to dress in uniform does not make much sense, otherwise if the motive is to make every one submit. One more thing a zair(visitor) should be treated in the same way as any other from even syedna saheb's family. If they are off springs of syedna tahir saifuddin genetically we are his spritual off springs, shouldn't all adam's sons be teated alike.

[Omega]

Brother Accountability,

Salaam,

You are correct when you say that a common Dawoodi bohra is no way inferior to any of the Mulla or Sheikh, its just that due to large number of people sometimes these Mulla or Sheikh are given privilege on the basis of first among equal, which you will agree is very much practical in the circumstances of large gatherings.

Brother when you talk about other Mazaar, I infer it’s not a dawoodi Bohra Mazaar.

yes all should be treated equally as we all are same in the eye of Allah subhanau tala and as mentioned by you offspring’s of Adam (as). the only problem is that sometimes people from the Tanzeem or volunteers behave irresponsibly towards common Dawoodi Bohra's and believe me this can easily be rectified if you just have a word with their supervisor. I have done the same in some cases and found it worked to near perfection.

[Smart]

@Al Zulfiqar,

Brother it was off the record remark, thats why i asked if you can provide me something which can refute his claim. other wise i take it on face value

What is on record among bohras? Even the Syedna's mohurram vawz is off the record. Can you provide any record of any vaez? Either a verbatim transcription or a video? It is all nudge-nudge, wink-wink matter. The establishment and their head have learnt to their dismay that records are dangerous and can be quoted, so a deliberate attempt is made to avoid all records. Some time back, somebody on this forum provided a link to a picture where an envelope of money was being handed over at the time of salaam and questions were asked about it. This picture was removed pronto.

If the you are so keen on evidence for everything said here, which you should be, IMHO, you should apply the same standards when any claim is made in your vaez and majlis. While you are asking for evidence for the 6 lakh population, you are willing to accept the 12 lakh contention without evidence. Doesn't that smack of hypocrisy and double standards?

Do you think amils work on a higher standard of truth and probity than those posting here?

[accountability]

Omega: why should everything dawoodi bohra be so inhumanely different.
I have quite opposite experience regarding complaining to any higher up. First they will treat you with utter disgust, and second 99% of time they will try to make a liar out of you. if compaining to higher up had ever worked our culture of behaviour would be quite different from what it is now.
I dont like these titles, who are doled out to wealthy one who could show off their wealth by giving ostentatious banquets (ziafat) and in return they are given titles to make them superior. most of the time these title holders are bigger sinners than us ordinary beings. we dont have much to sin. If you wnat proof I can give you names, but that will be mudslinging.

Syenda saheb's family has become isolated from common bohras. Whenever or wherever shazada visit he is accompanied by the same amil and jamat members against whom one may have complaint. Either he is attending zaifat or visiting (qadam) houses for a minute or two alongwith jamat members. You cannot compain to Bawa saheb directly, though he has invited everyone to go to him. but you will concur it is not at all easy to see him, and if you do he is accompanied by so many people around him that you cannot say anything or they will not let you do that. so now we are back to square one.

[ghulam muhammed]

Like Brother Merchant786 was referring to population equaling to 6 lacs i asked some people and they gave me a figure of 12 now to refute their claim i had asked for some document as i was sure Merchant786 would have some thing.

The total Da‘udi Bohra population of the world is said to exceed 700,000 with more than half living in Gujarat, India.
http://www.dawoodibohra.co.uk/who-where-and-how-many/