Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

[badrijanab]

And of course Mola Ali a.s. and Prophet s.a.w.w. are more knowledgeable and intelligent and thoroughly understand human body than all in all times!

Bro badrijanab,

Every right minded Muslim will agree to your above quote as the credibility of these great souls cannot be doubted at all. They were more knowledgeable and intelligent and thougroughly understood not only the human body but even the human mind. But what about the ones who attribute quotes to these great souls ? They too may be of an impeccable character but then the narrations attributed to them have been spelled out in some book which has been printed and reprinted a number of times over a span of centuries. How could someone vouch on its authenticity as the ORIGINAL text is not to be seen anywhere ? How can someone assure that the text have not been corrupted over a period of time by vested interests ?

Bhai GM sahab,

Very good question.

The answer is: Unlike all other sects, in Bohra Shia - all Hadees of Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. is coming from Mola Ameer-al-mumineen Ali a.s. who have grasped everything that Prophet said to him which need not necessarily was heard by others, but Mola Ali a.s. heard all hadees that Prophet said to others. So, Bohra Shia collection of the only true Hadees is the comprehensive collection than all sects. Mola Ali a.s. passed his "Ilmi wirasat" to his Fatimi Tayyebi Imams who all are masoom i.e. flawless - when Fatimi huqumat was established risala's & marsiya's of Imam Zainul Abedeen, Imam Sadik, Imam Bakir, etc were revealed - world saw its first university (like that of present) in form of Al Azhar University established by Fatimi Imam, all authentic books got published and distributed to every place under Fatimi Saltanat like: Saudi Arabia (in Mecca and Medina during Jumma Khutba name of Fatimi Imam was recited), Syria, Jordan, Philisteen, Tunisia, Sudan, Morocco, Israil, Italy, Malta, etc. All important books got distributed to all these places. After concealment of Imam the mission was established by their representative called 'Dai Mutlaq', they preserved and further distributed the authentic religious work. This is how the true original work i.e. true Hadees and rivayat are preserved within Bohra Shia literature.

Analogy: The water at Gangotri is 'amrut' (elixir) for life - the same water when travels through UP, Bihar and finally reach Calcutta get so much polluted that it is refered as "Hugli" (meaning dirty). If one want same water - it can be done - if a pipeline is establised, water is pumped at Gangotri, it is preserved in pipe, from which ever place & time you open the tap you will get same pristine water that was at Gangotri. Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. is Gangotri - Mola Ali a.s. pumped water into the pipe of Fatimi Imamat - whoever will tap Fatimi Imam will get same Elixir (amrit) quality of water that was at point of Prophet s.a.w.w.

Sunni & alike aur Ithna Asheri ne ghaat-ghaat se pani liya, har ghaat ki gandagi unki Siha-Sitta aur Usul-a-Kafi me samai he! Sunni's Bukhari and Ithna Asheri's Kulayni begged Hadees from people in different places - masses have poor memory - TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY YEARS after Prophet is too long time for Hadees to travel from mouth of people over TEN GENERATIONS! So, when Bukhari and Kulayni collected they got water of "Hughli"!

Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawood, Ithana Asheri's - Kulayni: they all are not masoom, they all are prone to human errors! One cannot figure which Hadees they collected is right or wrong! Should one follow their quoted Hadees - should that be incorrect then public acted honestly but with wrong belief! So, the core of Sunni and Ithna Asheri Shariyat is filled with "SHAQ" (doubts) - no one knows which Hadees of theirs is authentic and which otherwise! And remeber 'Shaq' in reference to religion is synonym to Satan.

[ghulam muhammed]

TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY YEARS after Prophet is too long time for Hadees to travel from mouth of people over TEN GENERATIONS! So, when Bukhari and Kulayni collected they got water of "Hughli"!

So how many years did it take for bohra hadees to travel ???

[badrijanab]

TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY YEARS after Prophet is too long time for Hadees to travel from mouth of people over TEN GENERATIONS! So, when Bukhari and Kulayni collected they got water of "Hughli"!

So how many years did it take for bohra hadees to travel ???

Bhai, Fatimi Imamat ki pipeline se aap 63rd Hijri me pani lijiye ya 250 Hj me ya 1400 Hj year me - jo pani Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. roopi Gangotri se pump hoova tha wohi shudh wa swach paani Fatimi Dawat ki pipeline me chal rahe he - kisi bhi saal me open karo aapko Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. ka amrit (ilm/knowledge) hi milega.

Hughli (Bukhari aur Kulayni) ka paani peene wala bimar ho jata he! Isiliye sare faaltu rishte todo aur fitrat Allah ki taraf badho, Kothar ko minus kar do aur fir Bohra Shia mazhab ko dekho - GM bhai, asli roohani sukoon milega, Inshallah.

[anajmi]

Oxford aur Webster saath laana nahin bhoolna warna roohani sukoon ki jagah aag ka tandoor milega.

[ghulam muhammed]

GM bhai, asli roohani sukoon milega, Inshallah.

Roohani sukoon to usi waqt se mil gaya jab yeh samajh main aaya ki Mola Ali (a.s.) ko hi Roohani Khilafat mili hai aur yeh baat 1400 saal ke baad bhi logo ko samajh main nahi aayi jiska natija yeh hai ki aaj bhi khilafat ke mudde par befuzool ladh rahe hai !! Yeh jumla samajhne me shayad der lage gi kyun ki yeh hi asal roohaniyat hai !!

[porus]

Porus bhai, you have omitted to write following categorical text, "रसूले खुदा से रिवायत है: खतना करना फितरत है। आपने फरमाया कि इसलाम मे कोइ शखस बगैर खतना के न रहने पाये।"

I did not omit the text. I have quoted what I believe to be the original Arabic text of Daimul Islam. If you compare it with the Mulla Yunus's Hindi translation, you will notice that the Hindi translation is not completely accurate, because the translation omits some words.

Here is my quote again:

Daimul Islam quotes Prophet as saying: الختان الفطرة . That is, "male circumcision is natural".

Prophet further states: لا يترك الأقلف في الإسلام حتى يختتن و لو بلغ ثمانين سنة . That is, "Foreskin should not be left in Islam even if (male) circumcision has to be performed at 80 years of age."

[*]The Arabic text translated in year 1964 by Mulla Yunus Shakeeb Mubarakpuri translation says, "Mola Ali a.s. says, ऐ औरतौं कि जमाअत जब तुम अपनी बेटियों का खतना करो तो थोङा सा हिससा बाकि रखो..... याद रखो कि सात साल से पहले किसी भि लङकि का खतना न होना चाहिये।"

[*] The word "IF" is mistranslated by you.

Again, I have quoted the original Arabic which differs from Mulla Yunus's translation. The latter again is not completely accurate. Here is the original.

Daimul Islam quotes Ali as saying: يا معشر النساء إذا خفضتن بناتكن فبقين من ذلك شيئا فإنه أنقى لألوانهن و أحظى لهن عند أزواجهن

Ali says ":idha khafiDtunna'". This clearly is a conditional phrase (in Arabic grammar, it is called 'shart'). It starts with conditional particle ':idha' normally translated as "IF". It is followed by a verb in the past tense.

Mulla Yunus uses the Hindi word 'jab' which is not the translation of :idha followed by a verb in past tense. Daimul Islam would use another word such as 'andama' = 'when', not ':idha"='if' for it to be translated as 'jab'.

Naturally, a firm believer in Prophet and Ali will consider their opinions as commands. That is a matter for individual. They are not Fard (commands of Allah) but may be considered to be Sunnah.

However, both Fard and Sunnah are a matter for individuals. Each individual is answerable to Allah alone. They can never be matters for a society to legislate what is a very private choice for each individual. Reformists should privately encourage non-observance of this practice. As Humsafar pointed out, it is not an issue with which Reformists should formally be concerned with.

[ozmujaheed]

Can the male viewers ever imagine the pain and humiliation of the girl child.. Never..The crime of fgm is in the same class as child abuse, rape.

Let us not get carried away.

Anajmi really you think calling it anything but rape or child abuse is getting carried away ! Wait I will do this to you and you comeback and repeat your statement .

I hope you do not have daughters and God help them if you have plans to do this act on them!

By your inclination of support from you and if you live in a western society i or any law abiding citizen is obliged to report you to local police to track you down for further investigation. It is very easy to track you down if we want to!

It is rape and abuse in the same context as child abuse in the catholic clergy because it is done against the will of a child, is morally wrong, harmful and for sexual nature. In our case it is also by its nature institutionalised and systemic abuse of the girl child. The Bohra issue should also be discussed in the same inquiry as it is not only a catholic issue but all religions have some form of abuse read this

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/no ... hild-abuse

On details of fgm research

Read this

http://www.ag.gov.au/Documents/FGM%2019 ... %20rtf.pdf

Note it is professionally researched and Daudi are mentioned and were on the authorities radar.

Others stop hiding behind convoluted hadiths and made up rituals. It has been proven long and hard in much reliable Islamic jurisprudence that this is a minor cultural issue and can be dropped . No one will go to hell if they do not practise it. The pro fgm is more an arrogant way of opposing modernisation of our religion and score points. Bohras have a history of being deviant and making up ideology as they go along.

However, both Fard and Sunnah are a matter for individuals. Each individual is answerable to Allah alone. They can never be matters for a society to legislate what is a very private choice for each individual. Reformists should privately encourage non-observance of this practice. As Humsafar pointed out, it is not an issue with which Reformists should formally be concerned with.

This point highlights the hypocracy of the pdb movement as it stands today and weakens its moral authority of all the Bohra society issues. I am disappointed like many new generation resistance fighters that our issues are more than what PDb are interested in. We need to expand the pdb movement , replace its leadership or create a new movement that truly aspires to be the future direction. For convenience we may be allies now but once we replace the dia and achieve what we may agree on as battles won we will part ways and the war of total reform continues, if you as pdb get in our way you will be the new target of the revolt.

[porus]

ozmujaheed,

It should be clearly understood that Daim ul Islam is a highly revered book for Bohras. Reformists should respect it and not be seen to be going against the advice of Prophet, Ali and Imams, as it is related in the book.

There is room, however, for a more enlightened interpretation of the book which is what I am attempting to put forward.

[anajmi]

oz,

Let us not get carried away. My views on FGM are well known on this board and if you do not know them, then there is no cure for ignorance. I have a daughter and have no plans to subject her to FGM. But to go to these idiotic extremes is ...well... idiotic. With all your brouhaha, have you actually done anything to make a difference amongst the Dawoodi Bohra community other than threatening people? What then is the difference between you and the mafia clergy which also works on threats?

[badrijanab]

FAO: Porus bhai

Every Mumin agrees that Mola Ali a.s. is the more intelligent than all doctors of all time put together. Quoting your (Porus bhai's) translation: "Mola Ali a.s. says, that Girl Khatna is good for her health/beauty as well as it will give more pleasure to her" - for any sane human no further argument is required in favor of Khatna - those who are opposing female khatna should read Mola Ali a.s. words that FGM brings good health, beauty and pleasure to girl.

[porus]

FAO: Porus bhai

Every Mumin agrees that Mola Ali a.s. is the more intelligent than all doctors of all time put together. Quoting your (Porus bhai's) translation: "Mola Ali a.s. says, that Girl Khatna is good for her health/beauty as well as it will give more pleasure to her" - for any sane human no further argument is required in favor of Khatna - those who are opposing female khatna should read Mola Ali a.s. words that FGM brings good health, beauty and pleasure to girl.

This is my translation:

Daimul Islam quotes Ali as saying: يا معشر النساء إذا خفضتن بناتكن فبقين من ذلك شيئا فإنه أنقى لألوانهن و أحظى لهن عند أزواجهن That is, "O women, if you circumcise your daughters, leave a bit therefrom. This is better for their color (health?) and they will be more appealing to their husbands."

It is not clear whether Ali is saying that 'khifD (FGM) Is good for the girl and her husband' or that 'leaving a bit is good for her and her husband'. And why should he mention 'husband' at all?

Regardless, if accurately reported, I would consider this a Sunnah of Ali. Just like the Sunnah of Prophet, following it should be a matter for individuals.

[anajmi]

Scientifically, there is no evidence that FGM brings health, beauty and pleasure to a girl. It is hogwash. So either Hz Ali was wrong or he has been misinterpreted.

[anajmi]

Every Mumin agrees that Mola Ali a.s. is the more intelligent than all doctors of all time put together.

Who gave you this idea? Is there any evidence for Mola Ali having recommended or performed open heart surgery? How about penicillin? Did he invent it? Let us not make idiotic statements in praise of humans to elevate them to the status of deities. Hz Ali had the best knowledge of Islam from what was taught to him by the prophet (saw). Attributing anything divine to him is shirk!!

[ozmujaheed]

With all your brouhaha, have you actually done anything to make a difference amongst the Dawoodi Bohra community other than threatening people? What

You ask me what I have contributed , There is no self glorification required....what is important that as many as possible Bohra girls can not ever experience the cut and feel safe from social pressure and protected by the best laws and law enforcement agencies ....it is with the alliance of law enforcement and enlightened clerics we will eradicate this evil as we have eradicated Islamic extremism .

This bohra and fgm outcry is now globally known ..mr engineer was approached by the media in India with the words "bohras known infamously for fgm...." we have this bad brand...sooner or later it will be uncomfortable to be hounded as profgm and something will need to move...

A Bohra lady had the courage to come on media to explain her experiences who would have Imagined this possible 1 year ago. Keep abreast with the court proceedings in Australia , people are charged and cases are ongoing...who else would dare perform fgm in such an environment. Yes at least with the help of authorities bohras will not dare perform this procedure...if they do and get caught they will be arrested and charged. There is sufficient media outrage so ignorance of the law is no excuse.

I have a daughter and have no plans to subject her to FGM.

This is very gracious of you thank you ..can you explain why ? Is it because you think it is immoral or you found fault in our religious ideology?

What are you doing to protect your nieces, your daughters friends, your grand daughters ? Join me in this fight to the end the more we are the stronger and effective the change..

I cannot claim that I have the best method but it is what I have expertise in and end justify the means.

[Bohra spring]

Ozm where does the buck stops....make sure the real raza na sahib mansoos is made to answer why he has permitted the abuse to go on if he is the controller of all actions.

Make sure the court makes him respond and make his position on this practise known publicly ...he has been consciously silent. He might ban it to avoid further damage to brand dawoodi.

The robust debate between the 2 prog and resistance fighter is a sign of healthy democracy may it prosper and make the spring brighter. I like it ..no ass licking like in the abde tyranny. Notice the silence from Abdes foolishly hopefully not celebrating thinking this will crack the movement...not really it makes it stronger as the best of both views are expressed and the most effective attack plan is produced .

[anajmi]

This is very gracious of you thank you ..can you explain why ? Is it because you think it is immoral or you found fault in our religious ideology?

Read my posts on the subject. They are available on this very thread. But the primary reason is, I got scared when you threatened reporting me!!

Most of my family members are now outside of the bohra fold. FGM isn't our primary concern. It is the true deen of Islam. People who get threatened by people like you will perform FGM behind closed doors and there is jack shit that you can do about it. Unfortunately, we cannot count on people like you to explain that FGM isn't a part of the deen of Islam. That is what is needed to be taught. Threatening people will only push it underground. And comparing it with child abuse and rape leads no where as people stop believing you even more. Heck, I am against FGM and even I don't agree with you!!

[Bohra spring]

Anajmi ozmujaheed is right...fgm is legally regarded as child abuse and a form of rape it has jail upto 14 years and is investigated by sex crime branches and those investigating pedophiles

Yes one needs to be scared shit if associated with it...no Hubble bubble soft soft approach

If people do not believe it is illegal wait when Bohris end up serving long jail terms...it is matter of time sooner or later in uk, Canada, USA or Australia some one will be jailed...then people can start risking it at their own peril.

Female genital mutilation and UK law

Information about the Government’s work to prevent and tackle Female Genital Mutilation can be found on the Home Office website.
In the UK, it is estimated that up to 24,000 girls under the age of 15 are at risk of female genital mutilation (FGM). Across government work is taking place to tackle this cruel and brutal practice. You can find information here about FGM and also advice on what to do if you are worried that you or someone you know is at risk.

Girls are at particular risk of FGM during school summer holidays. This is the time when families may take their children abroad for the procedure. Many girls may not be aware that they may be at risk of undergoing FGM.

If you suspect that someone you know is at risk of being subjected to any form of FGM, you should take action to report it immediately. Time counts so please act as soon as you suspect that a girl may be at risk of FGM.

If you are concerned that a British national may be taken overseas for the purpose of FGM please call the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on 020 7008 1500.

You should also call -
your local Children’s Services or Local Safeguarding Children’s Board
your local Police Child Protection Unit
the NSPCC on 0808 800 5000
FORWARD on 0208 960 4000
FGM – The facts
Female genital mutilation (FGM) includes procedures that intentionally alter or injure female genital organs for non-medical reasons.
The procedure has no health benefits for girls and women.
Procedures can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later, potential childbirth complications and newborn deaths.
An estimated 100 to 140 million girls and women worldwide are currently living with the consequences of FGM.
It is mostly carried out on young girls sometime between infancy and age 15 years.
In Africa an estimated 92 million girls from 10 years of age and above have undergone FGM.
FGM is internationally recognized as a violation of the human rights of girls and women.
It is illegal to practice FGM in the UK
The Law
The Female Genital Mutilation Act was introduced in 2003 and came into effect in March 2004.
The Act:
Makes it illegal to practice FGM in the UK;
Makes it illegal to take girls who are British nationals or permanent residents of the UK abroad for FGM whether or not it is lawful in that country;
Makes it illegal to aid, abet, counsel or procure the carrying out of FGM abroad;
Has a penalty of up to 14 years in prison and/or a fine
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37

Other countries and specific penalties where it is illegal ..bohras take notice

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/population/fgm/fgm.htm

12.11.08 - What is FGM?
Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) is the collective name given to a number of cultural practices that involve the partial or total cutting of female genitals. FGM can be performed as early as infancy and as late as age thirty. However, most commonly, girls experience FGM between four and twelve years of age. The origins of FGM remain unclear.
FGM is a Human Rights Violation
FGM violates a number of human rights of women and girls. Since FGM involves the removal of healthy sexual organs without medical necessity and is usually performed on adolescents and girls, often with harmful physical and psychological consequences, it violates the rights to non-discrimination, health, and bodily integrity. Although FGM is not undertaken with the intention of inflicting harm, its damaging physical, sexual, and psychological effects make it an act of violence against women and children. Finally, FGM sometimes threatens the lives of girls and women, thereby violating their human rights to life, liberty, and security of the person.
The Convention on the Rights of the Child, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women and Protocol to the African Charter on Human and People's Rights on the Rights of Women in Africa explicitly recognize that practices harmful to women such as FGM are violations of human rights.
Harmful Effects of FGM
Short-term complications include severe pain and risk of hemorrhage that can lead to shock and death. In addition, there is a very high risk for local and systemic infections, with documented reports of abscesses, ulcers, delayed healing, septicemia, tetanus, and gangrene. Long-term complications include urine retention resulting in repeated urinary infections; obstruction of menstrual flow leading to frequent reproductive tract infections and infertility; and prolonged and obstructed labor. In addition to the physical complications, there are psychological and sexual effects.
Legal Measures to Eliminate FGM
Many governments in Africa and elsewhere have taken steps to eliminate the practice of FGM in their countries. These steps include laws criminalizing FGM, education and outreach programs, and the use of civil remedies and administrative regulations to prevent the practice.
African Nations
Eighteen countries—Benin, Burkina Faso, Central African Republic, Chad, Côte d’Ivoire, Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Ghana, Guinea, Kenya, Mauritania, Niger, Senegal, South Africa, Tanzania, and Togo—have enacted laws criminalizing FGM. The penalties range from a minimum of three months to a maximum of life in prison. Several countries also impose monetary fines.
There have been reports of prosecutions or arrests in cases involving FGM in several African countries, including Burkina Faso, Egypt, Ghana, Senegal, and Sierra Leone.
Industrialized Nations
Twelve industrialized countries that receive immigrants from countries where FGM is practiced—Australia, Belgium, Canada, Cyprus, Denmark, Italy, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom, and United States—have passed laws criminalizing the practice. In Australia, six out of eight states have passed laws against FGM. In the United States, the federal government and 17 states have criminalized the practice.
One country—France—has relied on existing criminal legislation to prosecute both practitioners of FGM and parents procuring the service for their daughters.
Prevalence of FGM
It is estimated that about 100 - 140 million women worldwide have undergone FGM, with an additional three million girls and women undergoing the procedure every year. FGM is prevalent in about 28 African countries and among a few minority groups in Asia. Prevalence varies significantly from one country to another. For example, the prevalence rate is 92% in Mali, compared to 28% in Senegal. In addition, there are many immigrant women in Europe, Canada, and the United States who have undergone FGM. It is estimated that 15% of all circumcised women have undergone the most severe form of FGM—infibulation, which involves the stitching and narrowing of the vaginal opening. However, approximately 80% to 90% of all circumcisions in Djibouti, Somalia and Sudan are of this type.





National Efforts to Eliminate FGM
Criminal Legislation/Decree (year enacted)
African Nations:
Benin (2003)
Burkina Faso (1996)
Central African Republic (1966)
Chad (2003)
Côte d'Ivoire (1998)
Djibouti (1994)
Egypt (2008)
Eritrea (2007)
Ethiopia (2004)
Ghana (1994)
Guinea (1965, 2000)
Kenya (2001)
Mauritania (2005)
Niger (2003)
Senegal (1999)
South Africa (2005)
Tanzania (1998)
Togo (1998)
Nigeria (multiple states, 1999-2002)
Industrialized Nations:
Australia (6 of 8 states, 1994-97)
Belgium (2000)
Canada (1997)
Cyprus (2003)
Denmark (2003)
Italy (2005)
New Zealand (1995)
Norway (1995)
Spain (2003)
Sweden (1982, 1998)
United Kingdom (1985)
United States (Federal law, 1996; 17 of 50 states, 1994-2006)

[anajmi]

Anajmi ozmujaheed is right...fgm is legally regarded as child abuse and a form of rape it has jail upto 14 years and is investigated by sex crime branches and those investigating pedophiles

Legally, sex outside of marriage is regarded as recreational in most countries, doesn't mean it is right.

[ozmujaheed]

Muffy mansoos I cannot believe he risks his abdes going to jail . How can a person who claims complete control over an Abdes destiny be so aloof with such dangerous practise and be silent and goes about his own business as if nothing has happened.

He has one simple choice and I know his jesters read this website....open your mouth and ban this practise and apologise to the society that he and his predecessors made a mistake not to have known it was illegal. No more FGM in Bohra a real revolution!

Australia is reviewing laws because of the Bohra arrests and making the jail sentence longer to 20 years. I will be very surprised if a Bohra in Australia will risk 20 years of jail to keep his diai happy and fulfil the rasm!

Anyone with orthodox mentality wants to try ! Whatever your ideological argument to defend the practise go ahead and risk jail! They have Internet access in Australian jails..we can continue the debate on this forum and you can tell us how good the life behind the bars is ...the guy with earring has other abuse ideas on his mind make sure he is always in front of you. !

[Bohra spring]

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... 93#p106293

[Bohra spring]

J'ai entendu des informations il ya eu un cas en France, où a été capturé par Amil avoir mis en cause dans la maltraitance des enfants et le Jamaat massivement corrompu leur chemin et le amil a pris son envol dans un pressé

ce que quelqu'un a tout complément d'information que mes sources ont indiqué qu'il était plus lileky être arrivé à Paris. quiconque de Madagascar ou Paris bohra communauté s'il vous plaît commentaire

[badrijanab]

Muffy mansoos I cannot believe he risks his abdes going to jail . How can a person who claims complete control over an Abdes destiny be so aloof with such dangerous practise and be silent and goes about his own business as if nothing has happened.

He has one simple choice and I know his jesters read this website....open your mouth and ban this practise and apologise to the society that he and his predecessors made a mistake not to have known it was illegal. No more FGM in Bohra a real revolution!

Australia is reviewing laws because of the Bohra arrests and making the jail sentence longer to 20 years. I will be very surprised if a Bohra in Australia will risk 20 years of jail to keep his diai happy and fulfil the rasm!

Anyone with orthodox mentality wants to try ! Whatever your ideological argument to defend the practise go ahead and risk jail! They have Internet access in Australian jails..we can continue the debate on this forum and you can tell us how good the life behind the bars is ...the guy with earring has other abuse ideas on his mind make sure he is always in front of you. !

In India, Pakistan, Kuwait, UAE, Srilanka, Africa, etc were majority of Bohra mumineen resides - they will keep alive the Sunnat of Ahle Bayt to have male and female khatna. Inshallah.

[badrijanab]

@OZ Mujahid,

Of the total Bohra mumineen, those residing in Australia and alike countries may be under 0.1% , rest 99.9% mumineen will continue practicing sunnat of male & female khatna openly.

Common mumineen in above bracket 0.1%; in their heart have not abondon or developed anti against Khatna, they are stopped by the government and not by their inner free will. And as all know where there is will there is way - I hope you can read the unspoken meaning of this idom.

So, you have not revolutionized anything in Dawoodi Bohra community! Come out of your self knitted fool's paradise.

[ozmujaheed]

Badrijanab...

Let me share examples

Our shariat allows girls as young as 13 can be married, our history has plenty examples, Modernity made society to make laws and ensure child marriages are illegal, Now I dare you to find an abde in Africa , India , Pakistan to try getting married to a girl under the age. If he does it publicly he has committed a crime.

Same thing with slavery , Islamic history is full of it and was not the one that banned it, I mean the labour type and not abde mental slavery! Can you try keeping slaves for work .? Who initially banned it , the west and it spread globally!

So what is happening in Australia will spread initially to all western countries and then developing nations where 99% live. Don't underestimate the rate of change it is just a few months ago that the case came out and the government and UN actions have happened at rapid rate, laws are changing , UN resolutions were drafted, news channels are running around ...in 4-5 years we will see how many abdes continue this .

What is regrettable history books and law journals have recorded us Bohras as the prime culprits and the last to abondon the practise.

[anajmi]

It ensures pre-marital virginity and inhibits extra-marital sex, because it reduces women's libido.

Does it grow back after marriage to enhance the women's libido? If she is working on reduced libido even after marriage, it's going to be a problem for both husband and wife.

Also, does it create a barrier that only the husband can break through by displaying the marriage certificate at the entrance?

[ozmujaheed]

Mumindb next time read and make sure you paste credible facts

What infections
So these 2 doctors of unknown credibility make such casual remarks and no one checked if their comments are psychologically or biologically possible

Also when the UNO enforces, government passes laws they would have ignored medical benefits just to make an issue with religious fanatics ?

Do you not see the statements are chauvinistic

Any way go ahead as you suggested the more fools like you get arrested the better for to the message to get through

Is as a consequence if these child abuses our women are so submissive to the clergy that they cannot fight for their right of choice in so many other oppressive practises

By your logic the heart liver and balls gets problems because of over use and 2 mithans


Why not nick those too !

[think]

bohri women with f.g. are clean with no sexual deseases then what about the rest of the women of the world without f.g.m. ? with or without f.g.m. if you keep yourself clean you please allah. cleanliness next to godliness.

[badrijanab]

Also when the UNO enforces, government passes laws they would have ignored medical benefits just to make an issue with religious fanatics ?

Oz M,

Same "governments" also bans wearing hijaab for women - so by above token "governments" are correct and Shariyat is incorrect?!!!

Governments ruling may not always be correct. Your arguing that because government has banned FGM so it is sin for anyone to practice it - is a weak argument indeed.

[Conscíous]

Below is a piece of information for all those educated idiots who needs reason to talk against religion:

Female Circumcision is considered by its practitioners to be an essential part of raising a girl properly—girls are regarded as having been cleansed by the removal of "male" body parts. It ensures pre-marital virginity and inhibits extra-marital sex, because it reduces women's libido.

Female circumcision has not been prescribed for no reason, rather there is wisdom behind it and it brings many benefits.

Mentioning some of these benefits, Dr. Haamid al-Ghawaabi says:
1. The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.

2. Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.

3. Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.
4. Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.
5. It takes away excessive libido from women
6. It prevents unpleasant odours which result from foul secretions beneath the prepuce.
7. It reduces the incidence of urinary tract infections
8. It reduces the incidence of infections of the reproductive system.

I totally agree with the above and according to it, we can safely say, Allah did a pretty lousy job while creating this female creature.. They are so imperfect and we should modify them even more as we evolve.. Yes, I'm thinking about the tongue and while we are at it, we could sew the whole God damn mouth !!!

[ozmujaheed]

The program can be viewed on the link below

http://www.sbs.com.au/insight/episode/w ... /Clear-Cut

You will notice Bohras are not mentioned or seen in the program that went to air as the matter is in court, only a slight mention to the case. What was really interesting the commentary by the Islamic priest or scholar which sums it all...if the negatives outweigh the positives and it is not written in the Quran to perform it do not do it and do not blame the religion for your rituals.

.. if bohras have taken this FGM matter lightly ..think again the case continues..

.FGM is still being practised or promoted around the world by Bohras ...they do so at their own risk.