HAQIQAT AND TAWILL

[Humsafar]

anajmi, beyond ridicule you do not have the capacity to develop this conversation. It is typical of people with easy certainties. And yes I believe in nothing, now go figure!

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

There is a reason to why I ridicule. And that is because I never get any straight answers from either you or porus. Just rhetorical bull.

For eg. you said many people after the prophet have received divine grace but never have you once mentioned the name of such a person or what he received.

Then, you always talk about Quranic interpretations and how I follow a misguided one, but not once, after asking dozens of times, have you been able to provide the interpretation of the Quran that you follow.

All you can come up with is "literal interpretation"!!

These are just a couple of examples. I can provide many more. Consider the questions I have asked porus. Pointed and straight to the point. But what answers has he given me?

I cannot develop a conversation even if I want to. Both you and porus will whine and then run. So I might as well have some fun with whatever I can get out of you guys.

And yes I believe in nothing, now go figure!

Don't need to go and figure. I've always known that.

[anajmi]

I thought you believed that we were just an incredible accident!! How and when did you start learning about sophisticated philosophical systems concerning the origin of the Universe and the purpose of life? Or may be, after you studied these sophisticated systems, you came to the conclusion that we are just an incredible accident?

This is something else that I posted earlier as a question to you. How am I ridiculing you over here? It should be very easy for you to provide the answer as to which sophisticated philosophical system you have studied and what have you learned about the origin of the Universe and the purpose of life. But will you? What is the purpose of life? I promise you that I will not ridicule if the answer is anything other than - we are an incredible accident. Let us see if we can have a conversation.

[porus]

anajmi,

First accept that you are full of shit. That is clearly on display by the sort of questions you ask. Like I said before, your intention is ridicule. That is because you full of Abdul Wahhab and his shit.

God says in the Quran that He created humans for one purpose and that is that they should worship Him. He also says in it that human should recognize the ‘calamity’ of their existence and should remember that they are on their journey back to God (inna ilayhi raji’oon).

Wahhabi Lite keeps telling us that all God wants is to observe the five pillars and that is the purpose and goal of every Muslim. (The Wahhabi goal to cleanse ‘Islam’ by killing non-Wahhabi Muslims is in Wahhabi metaphysics!)

Some idiots like those scholars that S. Insaf mentioned were not clearly satisfied by that literal interpretation and sought to dig deeper and ask inconvenient questions like, where was God before he created the Universe? He was not ‘here’ as ‘here’ did not exist. Why is there a universe at all? Why is there something rather than nothing? What is soul?

These questions have been asked all over the world by mystics and scholars since time immemorial and they have speculated various answers into existence. Amongst a number of philosophies that asked these questions were those of Pythagoras, Plato, Plotinus and others. These influenced thinkers during the Fatimid age and they produced their own contribution by using the ideas in earlier philosophies to explain what they considered were mysteries of the Quran. That is Ismaili metaphysics.

(I am well aware what you and Wahhabi Lite have to say about mysteries of the Quran. Your answer is that there are no mysteries. Even if there were, God has said not to understand them. Hence all Ismaili metaphysics is bullshit and the last refuge of the scoundrels).

Asking questions like how Neo-Platonism explains this, that or the other is very silly when our objective is to understand what Ismaili metaphysics have to say about all this. Surely, Neo-Platonism has its own answers and there are hundreds of books which elucidate its principles in any level of depth you care to get into.
People like you already have their answers as Humsafar has so eloquently stated and you, a fanatic to the core, are not going to budge from your views. Your intention is to ridicule me, Humsafar and others who bring in sensible discussions. There are no pat answers to your silly questions. They are silly even if they appear intelligent to you. Tomes have been written on Ismaili metaphysics from the middle ages down to the present day.

Now get back into that Wahhabi hole and fester there.

[seeker110]

There are many wars in the kingdom of God.Peace is never the intention.

[anajmi]

A well written post by porus which doesn't answer a single question that I have asked time and time again and I am the one full of shit.

For eg.

My question

How and why is Taawil different from jurisprudence which can be used to explain the real meaning behind the law? For eg. the law of divorce. What does Taawil have to say about this Law? What about the Law of cutting hands when a person steals. What does Taawil have to say about it? If these are not the laws that Taawil explains, then which Laws does Taawil explain and what is that explanation. One or two examples would suffice. Is it surprising that even after so much discussion on Taawil, I am still asking the most basic questions. I must've missed quite a bit. Please help me over here porus.

We heard from porus about how those great scholars that S. Insaf mentioned were not satisifed with the answers provided by the Quran and hence sought to seek out the answers. Did they find those answers? Hunderds of books have been written about what they discovered, but did they find the answers to the 2 questions that I have posted above?

This is another question I had asked

Where or from whom did the Sufis get their Taawil?

No answer.

Then I asked

What idea from neoplatonism was used to explain the fall of adam and what is that explanation? Similarly, what idea from neoplatonism was used to explain the purpose of creation and what is that purpose?

The purpose of life for these great scholars was to discover answers to the questions not answered by the Quran. They found these answers in Greek Philosophy, neo-platonism etc. What were these answers?

Here are some other questions that these scholars have asked

where was God before he created the Universe? Did they find the answer? I guess we will have to go through those hundreds of books to find the answer.
He was not ‘here’ as ‘here’ did not exist. Did "there" exist? Could he have been "there"? Did they provide the answers? Or just more questions?
Why is there a universe at all? Did they find the answer?
Why is there something rather than nothing? What is the answer to that?
What is soul? Well? What is it?

It is ok for porus to say that he has no clue. Hundreds of books have been written by these great scholars, but just like porus has hunderds of posts but yet to answer these simple questions so also may be the case with these scholars. They wrote hunderds of books, but couldn't find or provide any answers. Or atleast, porus is yet to find them.

They are silly even if they appear intelligent to you.

Some people become great scholars by asking questions and some people are full of shit when they ask questions.

After all this, I accept that I am the one full of shit. These great scholars asked questions. anajmi is asking questions. Anyone, who is not full shit, care to answer?

[porus]

There are no answers, you silly. There are only questions. The world is waiting for you.

There is taawil in that. You need to learn to ask the question. What was Einstein's question which led him to the Theory of Relativity?

What does Quran mean by light? What does Plato mean by light? What does Einstein mean by light? What does Stephen Hawking mean by light? They all have different questions and profound speculative answers. But the mystery remains. What is light?

[anajmi]

boo hoo hoo hoo, mummy mummy porus is ridiculing my questions boo hoo hoo.

By the way, you are right. There are no answers. Just questions. The Quran has challenged anyone to produce a single ayah like it. After hundreds of books referencing dozens of philosophies, these scholars are still searching for answers that the Quran provides in its ayahs!!

[porus]

these scholars are still searching for answers that the Quran provides in its ayahs!!

Good. Now that you have your answers, please take a vacation from this board.

[anajmi]

You need to learn to ask the question.

After all the questions that I have asked for which porus has no answers, he wants me to learn to ask questions. And then he whines about being ridiculed!!

What does Quran mean by light?

The Quran is pretty clear about what it means by light. The problem is with people. Either people are too stupid to understand it or people have a problem with the explanation. For eg. porus might have a problem paying zakat, so even though the Quran tells repeatedly to pay zakat, porus is still trying to figure out if it has been made mandatory or not. Same is the case with Salah. Praying 5 times a day might be a problem, so people are looking for wiggle room. They write hundreds of books to avoid praying salah. These people will always be looking for answers. And that is because they do not like the answers that are staring at them. It doesn't mean they are great scholars. Just means that they are weasels. At least some of them that I know are!!

[porus]

The Quran is pretty clear about what it means by light.

Can you clearly tell us what Quran means by 'light'?

[anajmi]

What do we have over here? porus is asking questions? Should I provide answers? Do you think porus will ridicule the answer that I provide? Should I be afraid or porus' ridicule? Am I such a coward that I am afraid of ridicule even on an anonymous board? Are my answers so ridiculous that I need to be scared of ridicule everytime someone asks a question?

[Humsafar]

anajmi, the quesions we are dealing with here are mostly prerennial in nature - the imponderables - the origin of the universe, puropose of life etc. You'll never find answers to them because there are no fixed answsers. Just speculation. If I say that the purpose of life is to find your true self, as many saints and seers have reported, it would not make sense to you unless you're intellectually and "sipiritually" orientated towards such a state of mind. Suffice is to say that all metaphysics, all philolophies are just approximation of Reality. All creeds and religions too are no more than just approximations, an attempt at understanding Reality. Whoever tells you this is THE answer is lying. My issue - and porus's too, i guess - with you is that you believe one particular creed provides answers to all the mysteries of life and universe. From this fallacy other fallacies come easy - chief among them being a fixed meaning of scriptures making no allowance for history, culture and evolution of human knowledge.

The question is not what is the Ismaili (or Marxist or Neoplatonic) interpretation of this or that ayat. The question is whether diverse interpretations are even possible. Yes they are possible. Are they even allowed? No. That is your answer. And that is the core issue we are dealing with here.

Regarding divine grace, you know about the great initiates that predate prophet Mohammed like Krishna, Buddha, Lao Tsu, Jesus and many more, and those who followed him would be Mansur al Hallaj, Rabia Basri, Rumi, Nizzamuddin Awlia, Shabaz Qalanda, Meister Ekhart, Sir Aubindo, Kabir, Ramana Maharishi, and countless HIndu, Crhistian, Muslims saints - the list would actually be endless. And that would be just known people. The point is that every self-conscious being has the potential to see the Light. It could be you too, who knows!!!!

[anajmi]

The question is whether diverse interpretations are even possible.

Yes they are possible. Are they even allowed? Ofcourse they are allowed. Did I prevent you from interpreting that worshipping Shiva's lingam is the same as praying namaz? Who stopped you? I am just asking you for your interpretation. Asking you doesn't mean I am preventing you. The problem is not that I won't let you interpret differently. The problem is that you won't let me interpret differently.

Krishna, Buddha, Lao Tsu, Jesus etc etc.

You also mentioned that they are all Liars didn't you? Otherwise, you'd be either a hindu, a buddhist, a tsunamian (pun intended) or a christian. But you are a disbeliever. I have said this before. You don't believe they are all right. You believe they are all wrong and that is how you want me to believe too!!

You'll never find answers to them because there are no fixed answsers. Just speculation.

Actually, I have the answers to them and have provided the same many times on this board. Infact the answers that I have were mentioned by porus earlier on this very thread. These are fixed answers and I believe them to be the truth. You can prove me wrong if you want to. But I don't think you can.

you believe one particular creed provides answers to all the mysteries of life and universe.

Again, it is very easy to prove me wrong. Just answer the questions that I have asked. Give me the answers provided by other creeds.

[porus]

Actually, I have the answers to them and have provided the same many times on this board. Infact the answers that I have were mentioned by porus earlier on this very thread. These are fixed answers and I believe them to be the truth. You can prove me wrong if you want to. But I don't think you can.

O great one! O one who knows the truth!

You are greater even than the Sunni mufasseer, ibn Katheer.

So throw us some crumbs of knowledge.

Who were Idris, Dhul Kifl and Dhul Qarnayn?

Who is Khidr? Actually, this one is not mentioned in the Quran?

What was Isra, mentioned in the Quran and Meraj, not mentioned in the Quran? Why do Muslims believe in the latter, a myth? Did Muhammad meet all those prophets, literally? Was he actually, physically transported from Makkah to Jerusalem. And was a masjid, now known as al-aqsa, there? Oh, hadith, of course. But isn't Quran sufficient like the great lord Umar ibn al-Khattab, kept reminding true Muslims?

What is nafs? What is ruh? What is the difference between them?

What is an angel? What is a jinn? What is Shaytan?

What is good and what is evil?

What is heaven and what is hell?

What is light? ( I asked that before, O great one!). Now, what is time? How did the world begin? How will it end?

How did Jews end up in Egypt during the reign of the Pharaoh Ramses? (HInt: Monotheism was adopted by Pharaoh Akhenaten, Who inspired Akhenaten? He was there befor Ramses). Did Musa actually talk to God? Is the story of Bani Israel just a historical story in the Quran with no taawil in it? Who was Musa's teacher mentioned in Surat al-Kahf?

O learned one, metaphysicists of old failed to give us all satisfactory answers, only their speculations. You, O great master. are the one the world is waiting for. Quran speaks only to you. So, please enlighten Muslims. Tell us what you learned from Shaykh al-Akbar, Abdul Wahhab's teachings too while you are at it.

You may wish to compare Abdul Wahhab's teachings on tawheed with those of ibn Arabi or Mohyuddin Shirazi, the two mushriks whose teachings are misleading Muslims away from Quran?

What is tawheed anyway? That God is one? Is that it? He is here and He is there. Is He like air which is everywhere, or like vacuum which exists everywhere?

I know it won't take you more than a few seconds to pen down your answers as you have learned it all from Yusufali translation of the Quran? Thank you.

[anajmi]

porus,

I suggest you do a search with "anajmi" in the author's field. Do not put anything in the keywords field. You will get thousands of posts from me. Please go through them. You will get the answers.

[anajmi]

Sorry, I meant to say that you should do an Advanced Search. It is available on the top right corner of this page.

[anajmi]

This is from wikipedia about ibn Arabi.

In the year 586, Ibn ‘Arabī had a rare vision in Cordoba, in which he met all the Prophets from the time of Adam to Muḥammad in their spiritual reality. Hūd spoke to him and explained him the reason for their gathering. We can trace what Hūd told him in Rūḥ al-Quds when Abū Muḥammad Makhlūf al-Qabā’ili – a saint of Cordoba – died, the Prophet Hūd said: “We came to visit Abū Muḥammad Makhlūf al-Qabā’ili” (Ibn ‘Arabī, “Rūh al-Quds” 116). According to a tradition among the direct disciples of Ibn ‘Arabī, Hūd explained that the real reason for their gathering was to welcome him (Ibn ‘Arabī) as the Seal of Muhammadan Sainthood (khatm al-wilāya al-muḥammadiyya), the supreme heir (Addas 76).

in 594 AH at the age of 33, Ibn ‘Arabī was taken on one of the most extraordinary journeys of all: the ascension (al-mi’rāj). Ibn ‘Arabī wrote a book named Kitāb al-Isrā (Book of the Night Journey) immediately after this spiritual experience. Some sections of Futūḥāt and Risālat al-Anwār (Epistle of Light) also elaborate the hidden meaning of these ascensions. It is quite interesting that Ibn ‘Arabī’s (the Muhammadan heir) ascension is an exact and faithful replication of the Prophet Muhammad's ascension; while the Prophet’s ascension took place bodily, his ascension was a dream, vision of a heart or the vision of forms. These divine events are determining the way forward for his ultimate role as the Seal of Muhmmadian Sainthood.

In the year 599 AH during circumambulating the Ka‘ba, he encountered the son of Caliph Hārūn al-Rashīd, who had been dead for four centuries and was famous for choosing Saturday for work to gather food for rest of the week. Ibn ‘Arabī asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am al-Sabtī ibn Hārūn al-Rashīd.” Later Ibn ‘Arabī asked him: “What was the reason of choosing Saturday for work?” He replied: “As God has made this universe in six days from Sunday to Friday, and he rested on Saturday so I, as His servant worked on Saturday and devoted myself to worshipping Lord for the rest of the week.”

Seriously?

And porus got his tawheed education from him!!

[Humsafar]

anajmi, the sarcasm porus pours in his post seems to be only appropriate response to your presumptuous know-all rigidity. Please understand that in the matters of belief there is no wrong or right. Things can be proved right/wrong, ture/false on the basis of certain empirical criteria. It is a domain of science and logic. The question of proving any creed wrong or right is ludicurous. If you have fixed answers and believe them to be true then good for you. I've not interest in proving them wrong.

Regarding interpretation, Ismailis, Sufis, Ahamedias etc. have a different approachs to Islam. You and salafi brotherhood declare them as deviants and unislamic. Clearly you do not allow different interpretations.

The great mystics are not liars because they have never given absolute commandments, they did not give fixed answers nor create a dogma saying believe in what we have discovered or you are doomed. They have all merely hinted at reality leaving it to each individual to discover it for themselves.

What are the answers of other creeds is not important, what is important is to know right off the bat is that they are only true so far as you believe in them.

[anajmi]

Regarding interpretation, Ismailis, Sufis, Ahamedias etc. have a different approachs to Islam. You and salafi brotherhood declare them as deviants and unislamic. Clearly you do not allow different interpretations.

Oh I allow different interpretations. As long as I can find out what they are!! I've been beating my head against a wall the last couple of days trying to figure out these interpretations.

The great mystics are not liars because they have never given absolute commandments,

Do you even know what Krishna and Jesus have taught? Or do you just like throwing names around like porus?

What are the answers of other creeds is not important, what is important is to know right off the bat is that they are only true so far as you believe in them.

And you still want me to take what you say seriously? No answers to give and no truth to believe in and you are the one that I am supposed to listen to?

[porus]

Seriously?

And porus got his tawheed education from him!!

!جاهل واحد

Fundamental idea that Ismaili metaphysics has borrowed from Neo-Platonism is that of the process of 'emanation'.

In Arabic, it is the verb إنبعث
Participle is منبعث

The words are inba'atha and munba'ith, pronounced imba'atha and mumba'ith. You will sometimes hear your Aamil involking waseela of al-mumba'ith. This is equated to al-aql al-awwal.

The root ba'atha should me familiar to Bohras. In their tashahud, they say "wa al-ba'atha haqqun", meaning Resurrection is certain.

Emanation and return are the themes which are replicated in relationship of a human to Allah along the hierarchy which proceeds from a seeker of knowledge (a mustajeeb) through to Imam in strict steps making sure each step is thoroughly mastered.

There is no room here for Satanic arrogance of Abdul Wahhab and his followers.

There are no answers. There is only journey. Ever heard of "Parliament of Birds" by Fariduddin Attar, a Sufi classic? Birds went on a journey to discover the fabulous Simurgh, a land of spiritual knowledge, milk and honey. After devastating difficulties in which many birds perished, 30 surviving birds reached fabulous Simurgh.

Outside of themselves they did not find anything. No knowledge, no milk no honey. Hudud, the bird which had accompanied Suleiman in his fabled voyages, was the leader of the birds and he asked the thirty to sit in a circle and look at one another and then inside themselves.

Simurgh in Farsi means thirty birds.

Truth is inside you as Prophet said, "man arafa nafsa-hu, fa arafa rabba-hu".

من عرف نفسه فعرف ربه

[anajmi]

This is what I have gathered from the discussion that we've had so far.

Taawil, according to both Humsafar and porus is bull. It is a khichdi of different philosophies created by people who were either not satisifed with the obvious explanations in the Quran or were playing the part of sycophants for the Imams of their times.

According to Humsafar's interpretation of the Quran, woshipping shiva's lingam is the same as praying namaz. I can say with confidence that none of the 1.2 billion or so muslims actually consider that interpretation to be anything other than junk. And neither do the close to 1 billion Hindus!! The interpretations that Humsafar and porus want us to follow are extremely difficult to come by. You will need to go through hundreds of books and dozens of philosophies to find simple answers which you might still not find. The intrepretation followed by most muslims on earth are easily available in book stores or on the internet in concise forms. Humsafar and porus want us to believe in "The Cloud". Where things are not clear but murky. Ye bhi chalega aur woh bhi chalega as long as you don't get bogged down with fasts, salah, zakat, hajj etc. If we believe in everything and everyone, then we actually have to follow nothing and no one

[porus]

If we believe in everything and everyone, then we actually have to follow nothing and no one

Take the first part of the sentence out and leave "we actually have to follow nothing and no one". That is a good lesson to learn. If you have learned that, you do not have to go to any mystic.

[anajmi]

Emanation and return are the themes which are replicated in relationship of a human to Allah along the hierarchy which proceeds from a seeker of knowledge (a mustajeeb) through to Imam in strict steps making sure each step is thoroughly mastered.

According to the Quran, everyone will return to Allah whether he is a seeker of knowledge or not, whether he is a righteous person or an evil doer. You do not need to go to the Imam to return to Allah.

Truth is inside you as Prophet said, "man arafa nafsa-hu, fa arafa rabba-hu".

According to porus, as soon as the Prophet said that, everything else that he had said, about salah, zakat, hajj, fasting and pretty much everything taught in the Quran was now invalid and obsolete!!

[porus]

The intrepretation followed by most muslims on earth are easily available in book stores or on the internet in concise forms.

With the result that entire Muslim civilization is in tatters bridled with corruption, ignorance, poverty and internecine quarrels and killings!

[porus]

According to the Quran, everyone will return to Allah whether he is a seeker of knowledge or not, whether he is a righteous person or an evil doer. You do not need to go to the Imam to return to Allah.

Everyone will return but most will return without His recognition which is what is meant in Ismaili metaphysics. The word is 'ma'arefat'، معرفة

Hence the quote from Prophet.

[porus]

I will take a break from throwing pearls at swine.

Not that the swine will recognize the pearls!

[anajmi]

Everyone will return but most will return without His recognition which is what is meant in Ismaili metaphysics.

Again, according to the Quran, you do not need the Imam's recognition. As you have said before, Ismaili metaphysics, quite possibly, was the creation of sycophants seeking to impress the Imam. Let me remind you of what you had said earlier

However, I personally suspect that Ismaili metaphysics is a collective effort of these scholars which was perhaps 'rubber-stamped' by Imams who were too busy with the task of establishing and governing the Fatimid state.

You seriously still think that these are pearls you are throwing around?

Take the first part of the sentence out and leave "we actually have to follow nothing and no one". That is a good lesson to learn. If you have learned that, you do not have to go to any mystic.

If I were to follow nothing and no one, then I am afraid on the one hand I might end up following Abdul Wahhab who followed nothing and no one but his own interpretation and on the other hand I might end up following you or Humsafar. I don't think either of those two is a good choice.

With the result that entire Muslim civilization is in tatters bridled with corruption, ignorance, poverty and internecine quarrels and killings!

And your esoteric interpretation, which might be a fabrication according to your own account and which is not available anywhere, would've prevented this from happening? Unfortunately, with your above statement, you have just disgraced yourself down to the level of fa_t bank.

Please take a break before you do yourself more damage.

[anajmi]

Again, according to the Quran, you do not need the Imam's recognition.

I am not sure if you were talking about the Imam's recognition or Allah's recognition. If you meant Allah's recognition, then you do not need Ismaili metaphysics to tell you that. Allah's recognition would be for those that follow Allah's command, live their lives as taught by the Quran and Allah's messenger, and this is spelled out clearly in the Quran, in an interpretation that is easily available.

[Al Zulfiqar]

to the protagonists on both sides,

"the east is east, and west is west, and ne'er the twain shall meet"...

we have been over all this ad nauseum, lekin phir bhi dilli bahot door hai.