Awareness of Imamate Concept

[fayyaaz]

May I request to get over your obsession with anajmi and disgust with wahabis and focus on your opinions on concept of imamate under Fatimid belief.
...........
Please assume anajmi and wahabi out of this discussion ! for a moment keep your disgust aside and present your opinions keeping in mind everyone else.

I would gladly do that if the twit does not follow every post of mine with his "enlightening" comment latching on to unintended 'meanings", taking them out of context and then countering with the Najdi fanatical views. This forum is his personal domain and most active participants are his followers and supporters. So it is difficult to ignore him.

As far as Imamat is concerned, I believe that I have adequately commented on it. I will make further comment to clarify. But Adam is probably a better person to explain the "Bohra Official" view. Here is a quick reply. You should consider it a "draft" only.

You should not worry about spreading the Bohra views to non-Bohras just like, I assume, you are not concerned with spreading the dogmas of Falun Gong. If you are a parent, you will transmit your views to your children. If you value Bohra views, you will enroll them in a Bohra Madrassa and let them participate in Bohra social circles, including attendance in majlises. This is the default behavior of all parents in all social groups among mankind.

By default you have given responsibility to teach the Bohra religion to teachers of Madrassa. They do not have God-given responsibility to teach your children, That responsibility is given to them by you.

Dai is at the apex of the Bohra organization. You have given him the responsibility to teach Imamat and all the rest to you and your children. Did God give him that responsibility? No. He just assumed it as part of a historical process that Bohras value. He may say he is authorized by the Prophet and hence God to assume that responsibility. But that is just a dogma. You may take it or not. It is entirely up to you. If you give him the responsibility then you should accept it, warts and all.

So the Bohra view is that the Prophet and hence God has given that responsibility to the Dai. If you accept the view, then the responsibility of transmitting whatever goes with it, such as Imamat, falls squarely on you. As far as you are concerned, it is you alone who is responsible.

As I said , accepting the authority of your social group is the default behavior. Of course, many question the authority and hence the existence of forums like this. But you cannot escape the fact that you alone are responsible for your continued participation in your social group.

If you do not accept that responsibility then you can start your own religion. If you live in the West, you can do that without fear.

[humanbeing]

You should not worry about spreading the Bohra views to non-Bohras ……………… If you live in the West, you can do that without fear.

Thanks ! your response was very similar to the sabaks and abde muallims I have discussed with. What I understand is, if you want to be a bohra, believe whatever is said to you the way it is said. Such theories hold true and divine for those who are in it ..... For rest (non-bohras) it is a hogwash ! similarly the other’s beleifs are hogwash for bohras !

This understanding or mentality actually applies on each and every religious believer !

Quiet amusing ! everyone is self righteous in their own intrepretations !


Let the war go on … !!

[SBM]

^
Atleast Sabak Mualims do not lie that they are Atheists and change their identities

[humanbeing]

Fayyaz

According to Fatimid bohra belief, you too is doomed to hell ! unless you are SMS or SKQ follower and have paid your dues and you do not object any act of the Dais whatsoever ! and have given misaaq and if you have given misaaaq and defaulted you must be punished and looted, divorced and boycotted, abandoned and humiliated !


How does that sound for a belief, would you like to defend it !


I do not agree with any beleifs that propagate violence and humiliation ! keep me out of wahabi/salafi taunts !

[fayyaaz]

^
Atleast Sabak Mualims do not lie that they are Atheists and change their identities

An out of context comment by the intellectually-challenged who cannot come up with one lucid argument in many moons.

[fayyaaz]

Fayyaz

According to Fatimid bohra belief, you too is doomed to hell ! unless you are SMS or SKQ follower and have paid your dues and you do not object any act of the Dais whatsoever ! and have given misaaq and if you have given misaaaq and defaulted you must be punished and looted, divorced and boycotted, abandoned and humiliated !


How does that sound for a belief, would you like to defend it !


I do not agree with any beleifs that propagate violence and humiliation ! keep me out of wahabi/salafi taunts !

I will defend your right to hold that belief. I may not agree with it but that is not the issue. I do not agree with Scientologists either but would hate to see them being attacked for their views as long as they do not harm any non-Scientologist.

I would also let the followers of the Najdi fanatic alone, if they left others alone. They should become like Bohras. Hold majlises for their groups and then go home.

[anajmi]

Consider a community where the leader is taking advantage of the community members. One member of the community, decides to quit the community and expose the community leader of his crimes and corruption.

Now enter a coward like fayyaaz. What will he say? Leave the community alone to be robbed. Do not interfere in the affairs of the community. Fortunately these people are cowards, when push comes to shove, they won't be fighting on either side but simply hiding from both. So they do not really matter.

[SBM]

^
No he is not COWARD but a PAID LACKEY of the Kothari Goons of SMS gang, a subservient to Adam

[fayyaaz]

Consider a community where the leader is taking advantage of the community members. One member of the community, decides to quit the community and expose the community leader of his crimes and corruption.

Now enter a coward like fayyaaz. What will he say? Leave the community alone to be robbed. Do not interfere in the affairs of the community. Fortunately these people are cowards, when push comes to shove, they won't be fighting on either side but simply hiding from both. So they do not really matter.

Former members exposing corruption is OK. If that member then says that their entire belief system is based on lies, is anti-Muslim and the so-called duped followers must be branded non-Muslims and anti-Muslims, and must be rescued with heavy dose of the teachings of the Najdi fanatic, that is not OK.

I will no longer directly comment on your input. Because it takes too much of my time.

I will still make my comments and respond to others.

[anajmi]

And the other thing to point out is that this community leader is cheating people in the name of Islam. Hence it is incumbent upon those who know even a little bit of the truth to let it be known. The corrupt leader has to be exposed. The only way to do that is to show the community members that what he is claiming is false. If he says that sajda to him is wajib according to Islam, then show it to the community that it is not. If he says that a hidden Imam is a requirement of Islam, then show it to the community that it is not.

This is a duty of all those who actually care about those who are being robbed, persecuted and humiliated in the name of Islam.

[anajmi]

I will no longer directly comment on your input.

Yeah, I knew this was bound to happen within a couple of days. You have been hammered one more time. Your argument just slapped you on your face.

[SBM]

^
Watch him to appear under new Identity..
Since he is now exposed as a LACKEY of the current occupants of Saify Mahal, he could not defend the rights of SKQ to visit Raudat Tahera but can defend the Pomp of SMS riding on high horses during the solemn month of Muharrum

[humanbeing]

I will defend your right to hold that belief. I may not agree with it but that is not the issue. I do not agree with Scientologists either but would hate to see them being attacked for their views as long as they do not harm any non-Scientologist. …..I would also let the followers of the Najdi fanatic alone, if they left others alone. They should become like Bohras. Hold majlises for their groups and then go home.

Your stand is subjective to the limit of your knowledge or intentions. The Fatimid Belief and specific to Misaaq conditions promote violence against those who chose to opt out of the belief, plus there is a whole theory of non –bohra being doomed to hell if they do follow the DAI. Such philosophies are common amongst all religious beliefs, including the wahabi belief you hate and Fatimid belief you defend. So why such pick and choose and not denounce any such belief that harms humanity in general.

[humanbeing]

Fayyaz
Corruption is not an issue
Opulence is not an issue
Opression of bohra’s civil rights are not an issue
Corruption of Islamic belief is not an issue

Then what exactly are you defending ? your objection with wahabi belief is that, they are violent murderers when someone does not agree to their definition of Islam. You are right in denouncing these fanatics. They act violent from the inspiration from a set of belief they have chosen to believe in. Similarly is Fatimid belief, or any other religious belief.

Your another point was, that because this is a shia/bohra forum and you want to defend the bohra belief system under the freedom of expression. Then the belief that you are defending is a prime tool in the hands of these leaders to suppress the very freedom of expression you claim to defend.

In my opinion, you are not actually defending the Fatimid belief, but defending the corrupt leaders who are exploiting the Fatimid belief. You argument is, if the bohras are happy to be exploited then why call it bad !

Make up your mind, what exactly you want to defend, your arguments would make more sense if you were an abde ! but you claim to be an atheist ! correct ?

[fayyaaz]

I will defend your right to hold that belief. I may not agree with it but that is not the issue. I do not agree with Scientologists either but would hate to see them being attacked for their views as long as they do not harm any non-Scientologist. …..I would also let the followers of the Najdi fanatic alone, if they left others alone. They should become like Bohras. Hold majlises for their groups and then go home.

Your stand is subjective to the limit of your knowledge or intentions. The Fatimid Belief and specific to Misaaq conditions promote violence against those who chose to opt out of the belief, plus there is a whole theory of non –bohra being doomed to hell if they do follow the DAI. Such philosophies are common amongst all religious beliefs, including the wahabi belief you hate and Fatimid belief you defend. So why such pick and choose and not denounce any such belief that harms humanity in general.

Let us separate Fatmid components of Fatimid faith, such as the seven pillars, from the actions of the fanatics, who, by definition, are not well-grounded in that faith. Some Bohras are violent towards other Bohras who they believe have betrayed their faith. That is not Fatimid faith in operation although some leaders may use it for their own irreligious aims, primarily having to do with strengthening tribal affiliation and their hold on their followers.

Bohras do not have as their article of faith to attack others holding alternative views on Islam. That cannot be said of the faith of the followers of the Najdi fanatic. They empower them to unleash violence against those whose faith differ from theirs.

I do not defend Fatimid faith but defend the right of its followers hold and practice their faith. It is my view that unthinking adherence to Faith harms individuals. However I do not translate that view into action that bars the choice which they have freely made or are adhering to faith for their own reasons.

That is unlike the view of Richard Dawkins, an evangelical' atheist, who believes that Religion is harmful to people because it is always unthinking and thrust onto children at impressionable age. He would ban religion if he was a dictator, but he is too wise to pursue that course of action.

[fayyaaz]

I have already addressed the issue of pomp and riding in an ac-equipped buggy. Anyone can do that. He is wasting money and resources, not mine though. And he and his followers love it. I do not care about that.

I defend the right of anyone to go and visit graves. But why do it if it is occupied by hoodlums who are going to attack you. You have the right to walk at midnight in the gang-infested and gang-controlled areas of Los Angeles. You know that you are likely to be attacked. So why put yourself in danger? Hey, but I will defend your right to go there if you so wish. Only, I will not accompany you.

Taking a wider view, why go to a grave at all? Do you want to show respect or be seen to be showing respect? It is a silly notion. The dead is in no position to respond. I think the sons of SKQ would better spend their time visiting sick people in hospitals and show them that they care. A living sick person's smile and prayers are worth more than your prayers for the departed. Visiting the poor and old people in very poor neighborhoods, feeding orphans etc. is a better use of your service to your faith.

Religions are very good in enforcing obedience. What purpose does it serve to go for Hajj or perform deedar of Sayedna? Religions tell you that is to serve God. It is old notion. Have you been to Makka during Hajj to be with a dirty, overcrowded mass of humanity with inadequate toilet facilities? All you are doing is shunting yourself from one place to another mouthing words in a foreign language. Always looking over your shoulder to see if the followers of the Najdi fanatic are around to harass you. But hey, you will pretend that you had an enlightening experience! I know most of you are pretenders when it comes to that experience.

I say build a Kaaba in your heart and make a regular visit there to calm yourself. You will be nearer God there than in a thousand journeys to Makka. That is the teaching of age old spiritual disciplines such as Yoga and also the teaching of those who looked deeply into the inner nature of Islam such as Rumi.

[anajmi]

humanbeing,

Why does this coward care about people suffering during hajj but not care about people suffering during moharrum, when Hajj is the worship of Allah and moharrum is the worship of humans? Why do bohras go to karbala? What is the point? It is a silly notion after all. The dead is in no position to respond. Besides Hajj is a command of the prophet (saw) for worship of a God whereas Karbala is the worship of dead humans. I guess every single person going to karbala is a pretender too. Cause there may be a God giving your heart solace but there is definitely no dead human giving solace to your heart!!

Build karbala in your hearts you bohras and celebrate moharram at home. Listen to you hidden Imam who is going to be around for a couple more days before he goes back into hiding.

First let me tell you why bohras do not indulge in violence. Because first and foremost, they are cowards like fayyaaz and not because their Dai has taught them to be non-violent. Bohras normally indulge in violence against those that are weaker. There are many instances of bohra violence against the progressives. Fortunately, too much bending in front of humans has put the fear of humans in the heart of the bohras. Fayyaaz over here hates wahhabis cause he got slapped around by one right here on this forum. That is why he hates their violence. Cause he got violated over here on this forum. It is as simple as that. His self righteous bull shit about defending other people's beliefs is just a facade.

[fayyaaz]

Religion is not just beliefs but comes bundled with social organization. For most Bohras this social organization is extremely important and beliefs have almost no importance. They just take good (organization) with beliefs, about which most don't much care about and pay just lip-service.

So when you express a wish for Bohras to leave that organization, you have to propose an alternative. Identical social set-up with different people at the helm. They now have that choice. SKQ vs SMS vs Progressives. SMS has an advantage of powerful organization. SKQ is a distant second. And Progressives just plain out of water. There you are.

[fayyaaz]

Some Bohras are violent towards other Bohras who they believe have betrayed their faith. That is not Fatimid faith in operation although some leaders may use it for their own irreligious aims, primarily having to do with strengthening tribal affiliation and their hold on their followers.

[fayyaaz]

I put Makka, Karbala, Deedar, Kumbh Mela, all in the same category. No point in visiting them at all.

But I will defend your right to visit them though, if you so wish.

[anajmi]

Aw shut the f* up you fool. You are not defending the right of people to do something after spitting on what it is that they are doing. Keep telling yourself you are more but you are nothing more than dog shit coming out of your masters.

[SBM]

Fayyaz
Who made you the defender? You are self appointed TRULY BIASED defender paid by Kothari Goons of Saify Mahal.
You have not answered how come you did not defend the rights of SKQ family to visit Raudat Tahera and visit any of the Masjid which belongs to Dawoodi Bohra Community.
For an self proclaimed Atheist turned self appointed Defender of his choosing has no credibility so shut up you Adam and Kothari A-- Kisser.
So when are appearing under new id of Kothari/Adam a--kisser

[fayyaaz]

I defend the right of anyone to go and visit graves. But why do it if it is occupied by hoodlums who are going to attack you. You have the right to walk at midnight in the gang-infested and gang-controlled areas of Los Angeles. You know that you are likely to be attacked. So why put yourself in danger? Hey, but I will defend your right to go there if you so wish. Only, I will not accompany you.

[fayyaaz]

Canadian.

What do you have to say about the language used by your Mawlas like these:

Aw shut the f* up you fool. You are not defending the right of people to do something after spitting on what it is that they are doing. Keep telling yourself you are more but you are nothing more than dog shit coming out of your masters.

Fayyaz

For an self proclaimed Atheist turned self appointed Defender of his choosing has no credibility so shut up you Adam and Kothari A-- Kisser.
So when are appearing under new id of Kothari/Adam a--kisser

I have liked the above posts. Did you wonder what issues I was addressing or did they escape your notice too?

To remind you, this is what you posted previously:

From the following extracts from bhai fayyaz’s above posts, you can make out who uses gutter language:

“You crass, asinine, ignorant, philistine, supercillious, egotistic, vainglorious, contemptible idiot
Go kiss anajmi's a***!
I was asking if what the imbecile said was true
Why did you, like that imbecile, draw any conclusions about my opinion on the issue. Or like the idiot anajmi,
How did you come to that conclusion, you imbecile? I was putting forward my point of view, borrowing an aspect from St. Anslem. effin' idiot”.

[humanbeing]

Some Bohras are violent towards other Bohras who they believe have betrayed their faith. That is not Fatimid faith in operation although some leaders may use it for their own irreligious aims, primarily having to do with strengthening tribal affiliation and their hold on their followers.

How do you conclude that the violence is not promoted in the belief, have you read the misaaq conditions ?
Fayyaz to cut my argument short. Every religious belief denounces the other one and promotes violence. Wahabi or Fatimid, hindu or Christians are no different. My concern was with your biased and twisted justifications. Your arguments are further confusing or biased when you claim to be an atheist, and believe that religion altogether is just a thought and that eventually promotes violence.

[anajmi]

I have liked the above posts.

Let me repeat something I told bro Biradar. A couple of decades ago, Pooja Bedi from bollywood made a comment that caused an uproar in India. If there is nothing that you can when you are getting rapped, lie back and enjoy it. Well, that is what you seem to be doing.

[anajmi]

How do you conclude that the violence is not promoted in the belief, have you read the misaaq conditions ?

Check out this non-violent Fatimid doctrine following bohra Amil.

Amil_saheb_mumbai_jamaat.m4a

(1.01 MiB) Downloaded 497 times

[fayyaaz]

Fayyaz to cut my argument short. Every religious belief denounces the other one and promotes violence. Wahabi or Fatimid, hindu or Christians are no different. My concern was with your biased and twisted justifications. Your arguments are further confusing or biased when you claim to be an atheist, and believe that religion altogether is just a thought and that eventually promotes violence.

It would be better to say that every religious belief, except Christian, has provisions for self-defense. Extremist Wahabis along with extremists of all religions, including extremist Bohras, promote violence and may also justify it from their scriptures. Unscrupulous 'politicians', not much known for their piety, may also use religion for their own ends thus justifying violence in the name of religion.

Everyone, including me, operates under bias and seeks confirmation of that bias in their learning about the world.

Biased and twisted justification? Give me specific examples and I will respond.

[humanbeing]

Biased and twisted justification? Give me specific examples and I will respond.

Glaring example is your total defense of Fatimid belief preachers and resultant behaviors of their followers. I again emphasize, your defense would make more sense if you are an ABDE, but as an atheist least we expect a neutral outlook towards any such beliefs that promote violence, superstitions and fairy tales.. You have been hellbent on denouncing wahabi beleifs, but ignoring or brushing off fragments of violence in Fatimid belief. However you do seem to come around and put forward a little logical arguments here and there.


Personally what I understand of you is, you are really pissed off at wahabis ideaologies and its enforcement on others, in your hatred/dislike everything else seem less evil or less violent or less dangerous in the face of wahabi beleifs. I understand your compassion towards freedom of expression of one’s choices. But Surprised to read your arguments in favour of bohra clergy, which surpresses such freedoms in deceptive ways.

[qutub_mamajiwala]

the main difference is bohra clergy dont enforce it on others.
if u choose to opt out, they leave u alone with ur beleif.
even gale lagao sometimes.
that is not the case with followers of umayyads version of islam.
they forcefully enforce it on you even if ur not muslims or follow their view of islam.