Who are we praying to?

[SAJJAD]

Why do Bohris pray namaz with pictures of Burhanuddin on their masallah?

I have seen Bohris bring the usual fanfare such as Burhanuddin key chains, wallet-sized pictures, and even picture frames that are placed on their side.

Placing pictures of anyone when you're praying namaz is un-Islamic. Are Bohris praying to GOD or to Burhanuddin? The distinction is hard to make one when sees this practice in action.

[babu]

Dont like it ?

OK try this
http://www.jeffrey-david.com/jd_aum.asp

[khan19922001]

Dear Babu

I fail to understand your reply. Do you mean to say that since Bohris are basically Hindus, it is their culture to keep pictures etc. Reference to site that has Aum necklaces etc is not understood.

Regards

[babu]

If one doesn't like the photographs I suggested an alternate
VELLY CHHIMPLE YAAL

[tahir]

here is a better alternate:
THE 53rd DAI

[babu]

Reformist's Dai Click here

And in this page he hold a !!! dont mind he is reformist

[JC]

Tahir,

sorry man i was not able to reply to some of ur postings. I do not need to take permission or justify of what i am and what i believe, though i have the right to discuss and argue.

For PHOTOS....

Photo of Burhan is MUST.
Tasweer-e-Burhan and Burhani Sundas ...
and
here you go to Jannat...!!!!!

[spot]

this is truly sad.

if you ever noticed...many bohra masalahs have a picture of Sayenda Burhandin...yes this is true...have you noticed what the picture is on.

obviously not.

the picture is the cover of a dua/marithya book used for supplication during the salat.

and it is not a far stretch to say a large minority (maybe 30%) actually have one with their masallahs.

i'm all for setting things straight..but lets get our facts straight first.

[anajmi]

That is one of the reasons why pictures are a big no no in Islam. People mistakenly believe the person in the picture to be the deity. Well, then again, in case of the Bohras.. who knows.

[porus]

Contradiction in Bukhari?

See the last one. Prophet dreaming of pictures of Ayesha? That should be a no, no!! Oh, Really?

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 450:

Narrated Salim's father:

Once Gabriel promised the Prophet (that he would visit him, but Gabriel did not come) and later on he said, "We, angels, do not enter a house which contains a picture or a dog."

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 570:

Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The Prophet entered the Ka'ba and found in it the pictures of (Prophet) Abraham and Mary. On that he said' "What is the matter with them ( i.e. Quraish)? They have already heard that angels do not enter a house in which there are pictures; yet this is the picture of Abraham. And why is he depicted as practicing divination by arrows?"

Volume 5, Book 58, Number 235:

Narrated 'Aisha:

That the Prophet said to her, "You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and some-one said (to me). 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done."

[anajmi]

porus,

I am surprised you do not see the differences in the ayahs that you have quoted. There is no contradiction. You probably did a search on "picture" and were so joyous when you found this ayah that you didn't even bother to understand it.

[anajmi]

It should be hadith instead of "ayah". Sorry about that.

[spot]

anajmi,
since you are an avid fatwa researcher..here is your fatwa for the day:

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/englis ... aID=100939

[spot]

anajmi,
you are correct in the analogy of OTHER people thinking we are worshipping the photograph. this is the intentions of the ayahs and hadith that have been referenced. however, the same applies to all the photos of the kabah and the kabah itself as considered an object of worship. we as muslims do not worship the kabah, but use as a common point of worship for Allah. just as i don't worship imam husain, but have a taziah in my home for remembering and honoring the "purified five" (khamsah athar).

[Muslim First]

---just as i don't worship imam husain, but have a taziah in my home for remembering and honoring the "purified five" (khamsah athar)---.

And where in Quran or Sunnah of Prophet it is recommended that you have this TAZIAH in house to remind and honor "PURIFIED FIVE"?

Do you really need this to worship Allah SWT?

.

[anajmi]

spot,

thank you for the information. Everything you said about the taziyah and kaaba pictures and all that has nothing to do with what the prophet ordered. It is simply your interpretation/ analysis of your own conveniences.

There is no harm in removing the pictures of the kaaba from the walls of your houses. I have a lot of pictures of my family too, but no one will ever be mistaken in believing that I worship them.

And as far as the taziah is concerned, I don't have any in my house and I still remember him and what he did and I still honor whoever needs to be honored Islamically.

[spot]

muslimfirst and anajmi,

unfortunately your limiting your understanding of the intention of the command to just literally. the intention of the prophet was so people didn't worship the picture they created...the moral is that the human doesn't have the ability to bring something to life...that is to Allah.

the hadiths referenced any type of symbolism..be it an animal, person, or idol.

if we just limit the defintion to symbols or pictures of any kind, than in fact the kabah and pictures of it and mosques and other religious symbolism apply.

regarding the taziyah, i use them as references for how a muslim should act.

and by your definition, why will no one think you are not worshipping your family by having pictures of them?

at this point, you are inferring what you consider "islamic".

[spot]

just as an example of the same,
the dai ordered that bohra should not keep decorative statues of elephants, as a person may think you are hindu worship ganish.

but back to originally dilema...pictures of family, leaders, and others are not haram, so the idea of having a picture of the dai is not haram either.

just as you assume a picture of your family is not automatic for worship..so too would apply for a picture of the dai.

[porus]

Actually, according to several ahadith, portraits and portrait-makers of all humans and animals have been condemned by Nabi Muhammad.

In a hadith, Nabi says that those who paint pictures of humans and animals (this would include photographs and any other representation nof human or anomal form) will be asked by Allah to instil life into these pictures on the Day of Hundgement. Since they will not be able to do it, they will be condemned to hell.

Literally, then, whether you have the intention to worship the painting or not, painting is forbidden. That is why Islam only accepts paintings of inanimate nature. Plant life is included for some reason I cannot fathom. Muslims have yet to see plants that move and have purposeful behavior.

That link of Fatwa by Spot is totally against the hadith.

[Muslim First]

.
Fatwa on Photography
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/englis ... waID=69010

Keeping Framed Pictures
http://www.islam-online.net/fatwa/engli ... waID=84082

.

[spot]

several issues here.

the ayahs and hadiths that are referenced refer with the intention that the image created will possibly be worshipped. this is the reason for their condemnation. hadiths clearly state that the pictures would become things of worship or created for that purpose.

the thing that must be remembered is that many of the so called sahih hadiths are flawwed in content and/or transmission. the quran clearly refers only to images that would be used for worship.

this is why the fatwa makers say that pictures in and of themselves are not haram...but the use of them could be.

its still pretty muddy!

[porus]

MF's fatwa links again display fatwa-writers' skills at second-guessing Nabi's reasons for his condemnation of pictures of humans and animals.

It would be nice if these people actually quoted Muhammad's stated reasons for his condemnation.

These fatwas are against the ahadith.

If you guys want to use and keep pictures, images, photos, films etc., then do so. Just know that Muhammad is against it. And you would then not be entitled to call yourselves Muslims.

The way out is simply to junk Hadith altogether as untrue fabrications of ego-maniacal writers who wrote them to boost their ego among unlearnerd populace.

[anajmi]

MF's fatwa links again display fatwa-writers' skills at second-guessing Nabi's reasons for his condemnation of pictures of humans and animals.

It would be nice if these people actually quoted Muhammad's stated reasons for his condemnation.

Well, they obviously do not know the stated reasons and neither do you. They are trying to figure out what he may have meant and how to apply it in the light of the quran. Your solution is to junk the hadith. I think I will stick with those that are thinking.

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:
Your solution is to junk the hadith. I think I will stick with those that are thinking.

Not MY definitive solution. But, a solution.

What is there to think about? Nabi has condemned without giving reason and that is that.

It is like Quran forbidding the eating of pig meat. One can think up all sorts of perfectly 'reasonable' reasons for the ban. That would be second-guessing Allah and these thinkers would come up with 'circumstances' where pig meat could be eaten. I mean, they could! That would not be kosher, um, halal!!

[spot]

my solution is we reference the hadiths..but obey what the quran says and its intent. the quran clearly refers only to images that would be used for worship.

[anajmi]

porus,

If you had understood the difference between the quran and the hadith, you would've understood the difference between the two. But to you they are both the same. So it is easy for you to do what are doing. As Allah says in the quran and the prophet in his hadith, the road to hell is easy.

[anajmi]

As far as pig meat and circumstances under which it can be eaten is concerned again, I am sure you have come up with a lot of circumstances under which you can justify eating, I haven't been able to come up with any.

And have you ever wondered that why did Allah prohibit pig meat? It could be the most delicious and the most healthy and well prepared meat on earth and it could be halal too?

May be it is just a test to see if you are a true believer or not!!

[porus]

anajmi,

No. Quran and Hadith are not the same to me. That is why I suggest junking Hadith. I would never do that for Quran.

[porus]

You can speculate all you like. No matter what the circumstance, if you ate pig meat, you would go against Allah's command. I have read that some fatwa-writers allow eating pig meat if that is all that stands between life and death. I disagree.

[porus]

And there is a historical precedent for junking Hadith. A large number of ahadith have actually been junked by 'scholars'.