Question for Muslim First (aka wahabism vs. Sunni Mahdab

[GodBless]

November 2002 you asked of me,

Could you define Wahabism?

Then I will tell you whether I am Wahabi or not.

My answer,

It is my understanding that Wahabis are those that take the Quran literally, and a very rigid interpretation of the Quran and Hadith rules every aspect of their lives. My apologies in advance, if I have misunderstood your posts.

No answer from you, while you trouble yourself with whether a coin who buried by an ignorant Bohra saysKalimah of Allah or in God we trust, or whether he/she performs mataam, or dances during a party.

Point being, unless you finally respond to a more important, non-bohra-bashing political crisis that confronts all of , the world will continue to be convinced that people of your rigid faith are inciting terrorism while harmless, ignorant acts such as burying coins, mataam, kadam bosi, preoccupy your mind. It needs to be noted that this perception of Islam, for right or wrong, was caused by the Wahabi belief, but is affecting us all; unlike mataam or Kadam Bosi.

I am trying to understand your point so I have to finally hold you accountable for shouting "shirk".

Is quoting from Hadiths, polishing shoes to meet virgins, prior to killing civilians not Shirk ? Is allowing young girls to die in SA because they were not dressed appropriately not Shirk ? Is stoning a woman to death for committing adultery not shirk ? Is executing women in public stadiums in Afghanistan not shirk ? Is gassing civilians not shirk ? Please provide quotes from Hadiths to prove the above IS shirkous behavior. Please, will you ?

What is a more important and a deadly violation of religious beliefs to you ? The Dai, or what I have quoted above.

Please answer with respect to your earlier post regarding differences between Wahabism as opposed to Islam taught by Sunni Madhab

[Muslim First]

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Brother GodBless

I have read your question. I am not an expert on Wahabism if such sm exists.

For Saudi thinking on Islam I suggest you get hold of 3 booklets which were given as Hadiyah to departing Hajis when I went for Hujj.

They are

1 THE FUNDAMENTALS OF ISLAM
FOLLOWED BY FOUR RULES
BY: Muhammad bi Sulaiman at-Tamimi
Translation by: Manomoud bin Ridha Murad

2 THE RELIGION OF TRUTH
BY:Abdul Rahman Ben Hammad Al-Omar

3. ESTABLISHING THE PROOFS REGARDING THE RULES OF THOSE WHO SEEK HELP OF OTHERS THEN ALLAH OR THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN SOOTHSAYERS AND FORTUNE TELLERS

By: His Eminence Shekh Abdul Aziz Bin Abdullah Bin Baz, Translated by Dr. Syed Muhammad Munnawar Nainar

They are all published by
Ministrary of Islamic Affairs Endowments
Dawah and Guidance at the cost of
Ibrahim Bin Abdul Azziz Al-Brahim Welfare Est., Saudi Arabia.

I will be galad to copy those for you and mail it to you. You may send me your mailing address by sending me private message.

Wasalaam

.

[Muslim First]

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Br. GodBless

This does not mean I will not answer some of question you raised, I need some time to study your question and respond to it

Wasalaam

.

[GodBless]

Muslim First,

You need some time to study my question ?

I simply asked What is a more important and a deadly violation of religious beliefs to you ? The Dai, or what I have quoted above.

With all due respect I am appalled by that. It is evident that the solution is not to read more Islamic books.

Quite the contrary.....

[Muslim First]

Is quoting from Hadiths, polishing shoes to meet virgins, prior to killing civilians not Shirk ? Is allowing young girls to die in SA because they were not dressed appropriately not Shirk ? Is stoning a woman to death for committing adultery not shirk ? Is executing women in public stadiums in Afghanistan not shirk ? Is gassing civilians not shirk ? Please provide quotes from Hadiths to prove the above IS shirkous behavior. Please, will you ?

Shirk applies only to joining other gods with Allah.

*** quoting from Hadith is not shirk
*** polishing shoes to meet virgins,prior to killing civilians not Shirk ?-Plese expalain.
Killing civilians under any circustances is sin and punishable by existing laws.
***Is allowing young girls to die in SA because they were not dressed appropriately not Shirk ?
-One cannot use word Shirk for this horrible ,stupid act by SA authorities. Whoever responsible for not comming to aid of these sisters should be punished. True Islam values life and life has to be saved at any cost.
***Is executing women in public stadiums in Afghanistan not shirk ?
-Once again I question use of word Shirk. Punishment of Adultrary as per Quran is Lashing. Ther is some evidance in Sunnah for stoning .I Do not expect ignorant people led by ognorant Mullahs to do do ritht things?

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Allah Says:

"And we did send to every nation a Messenger preaching: 'Worship Allah and shun the Taghoot" [Q16:36]

Taghoot is whatever man worships instead , or to the exclusion of Allah.

It is also any human being that man transgresses by exceeding the limets of obaying, worshipping or following him.

There are many types of Taghoot for example

Iblis, the accursed by Allah
One who approves of being worshipped
One who calls people to worship him
One who claims the knowledge of unseen
One who rules by laws other then those sent down by Allah.

Please think. Do you see Taghoot in some of people Bohras worship?

Shirk only applies to Associateing or worshipping some one other then Allah.

Wasalaam

.

[porus]

Why abdicate self-responsibility to define beliefs in accordance with your experience? I have looked at my beliefs and decided that none of these relate to my personal experience. They have been drummed into me and made me into a robot. I have therefore denied the very gift of life that has been given to me by Almighty God. And that is the real ingratitude.

I like to interpret Surat al-Ikhlaas to declare that there is only Allah and nothing else besides. We therefore partake of the divine consciousness that in its indvisibility we would call Allah. Shirk is denying that unity.

If a human being kills, then he is most definitely involved in Shirk because he does violence to the divine essence of Almighty God. He associates a conscious, sentient life with someone other than Allah.

Jesus said: You shall not kill, period. No ifs and no buts.

That is why the world's scriptures which has war and blood as their central core are to be seriously questioned and, at the very least, re-interpreted.

[GodBless]

Do you see Taghoot in some of people Bohras worship?
Absolutely, it is a no-brainer.

Going back to my original question, of which acts being more harmful to all muslims in general.

Shirk applies only to joining other gods with Allah.

Then it also applies when Man takes into his own hands, acts and powers attributed to Allah. Muslims (and most others) attribute life and death to God.

So if one takes a life acting on behalf (in spite ?) of God, then it is Shirk.

[anajmi]

Can someone tell me if there is a word in the english language which would mean "playing with words"?

[Abdulla]

Taghut
In the Islamic and Quranic context, it basically means anything that is made to stand as an opposition to Allah, or any Shaitaan or any of his manifestations by which he seduces people to commit the unforgiveable sin of shirk.

Iblis is taghut

Syedna is a taghut!
Budha is taghut

Anything that is an object of worship other than Allah is a taghut!

[Abdulla]

‘ ‘Shirk’ or associating another in God-head with Allah, has three parts:

1. Shirk in Allah’s person

2. Shirk in Allah’s Attributes

3. Shirk in Allah’s Rights

[qiyam]

Originally posted by Abdulla:
Taghut
In the Islamic and Quranic context, it basically means anything that is made to stand as an opposition to Allah, or any Shaitaan or any of his manifestations by which he seduces people to commit the unforgiveable sin of shirk.

Iblis is taghut

Syedna is a taghut!
Budha is taghut

Anything that is an object of worship other than Allah is a taghut!

Bohras do not worship Sayedna..nor does Sayedna claim to have any power of Allah; Budha did not nor taught in belief in any God...so both references don't apply to your argument.

[Khairan]

> Bohras do not worship Sayedna..nor does Sayedna claim to have any power of Allah

qiyam,

Though I think you are certainly correct in asserting that Bohras do not worship syedna, I think it is not a matter of quality but a matter of degrees that separates the role of syedna in Islam/bohraism from the role of an idol in polytheism.

Ultimately, both forms of worship require the intermediary, be it syedna or the idol, to reach God. A personal relationship with God without the action of such an intermediary is not possible. At least, this is my understanding of the Bohra view of the imamat and dawat. What is the difference between thinking that asking for syedna's intercession is a path to Allah and thinking that an idol's intercession is a path to Allah?

Your comments would be appreciated.
salaam

[GodBless]

Ultimately, both forms of worship require the intermediary, be it syedna or the idol, to reach God

I agree. It has already been established that Bohra's worship Syedna and trust him to be the intermediary.

However, this thread is intended to highlight the fact that those who rightfully and vehemently oppose the Bohra belief (Muslim First, et al) also have an intermediary to reaching God in the form of written words and various interpretations and opinions (and interpretations thereof) in the form of Hadiths, and even Prophet Muhammad

[Muslim First]

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br qiyam wrote:
Bohras do not worship Sayedna..nor does Sayedna claim to have any power of Allah

Br. qiyam don't you see spectale of Bohra lining up to kiss his feet?

All the speeches made by him that he will lead his flock to Jannah?

Yours was just a proforma denial. In reality he is Godhea of Bohras including yours.

Wasalaam.

[qiyam]

Dear Khairan, Godbless, and MuslimFirst,
Ultimately, both forms of worship require the intermediary, be it syedna or the idol, to reach God.

This is partially incorrect and what make all three of your statement completely false. Sayedna is an intermidary like the Prophets and Imam and other Dais are/were. All have rights that if you follow the shariat of Allah by their interpretation you will be grantee Jannah. Of course this is the caviot.

What is the difference between thinking that asking for syedna's intercession is a path to Allah and thinking that an idol's intercession is a path to Allah?

An idol was not place on this earth to guide the muminin towards worshipping Allah. The human may create and use the idol as a directive of faith...but in essensce the human has also created the directive the idol represents. The person of the Prophet, Imam, and Dai were created by Allah and their directive is from Allah.

Br. qiyam don't you see specticale of Bohra lining up to kiss his feet?

Yes, as the muminin lined up to see the Prophets and Imam and Dai of before. We've discussed this before and I have with your own hadiths proven the autheticity of qadam bosi.

[Muslim First]

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Br. qiyam wrote

I have with your own hadiths proven the autheticity of qadam bosi.

We will have to revisit Kadm bosi again, Inshah Allah.

Wasalaam

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[Muddai]

Qiyam,

An idol was not place on this earth to guide the muminin towards worshipping Allah.

Neither was the Dai, he was selected by his Daddy .

The person of the Prophet, Imam, and Dai were created by Allah and their directive is from Allah.

The person of Imam was created by Imam, and the person of Dai was created by Dai. I could be mistaken of course but I do not recall the Imam or the Dai being mentioned in the Quran.

Now back to Wahabism vs. Sunni Mahdab, what's the difference, I too am curious ?

[porus]

http://saudhouse.virtualave.net/history.html

The link is an interesting take on the Saud family by a "conspiracy theorist".

House of Saud is Jewish and the founder of Wahabism, MOHAMMAD BIN ABDUL WAHAB, was also a Turkish Jew. He fell foul of Sheikh SALEH SALMAN ABDULLA AL TAMIMI. The latter was a genuine Sunni but Abdul Wahab had him murdered and later propogated his own version of false doctrines which came to be called Wahabism. Wahabis believed that all those who do not follow their corrupt doctrine are not Muslims and are fair game for killing and looting. The notion was given vibrant life when Westerners found oil and helped them drill it. The belief that Allah was a Wahabi took root.

This gives a lie to general notion that Wahab was a student of Tamimi. Curious!!

So, according to this, Sunnis are genuine followers of the traditions whereas Wahabis have their own messianic and imperial, but corrupt, take on ahadith.

[qiyam]

Dear Muddai,
You "don't recall" yet make statement as though you have an idea what your writing about...when you don't.

Maulana Ali was the first Dai of the Prophet before wasiyat. Both were Imams of the ummah.

[porus]

Qiyam,

A distinction must be made between the use of the word Imam meaning leader and Imam in Shia theology. The latter has a very specific connotation.

Same applies to the word Dai. Dai-al-Mutlaq has very specific meaning.

Quran mentions both the Dai and Imam. But their contexts are significantly different from what they are currently understood to mean by the Bohras.

[qiyam]

Dear Porus,
When I say Imam and Dai...I was refering to the Shia use of the words (Imamate and Dawat). The Prophet was first an Imam and in addition a Prophet and Rasul. Maulana Ali was an Imam an the wasi of the Prophet...just as Aaron was the wasi of Musa. Both were Imams.

The Imams (as well as Prophet) had many Dais tranmitting the ilm of Ahle Muhammad as taught by the current Imam to the various areas with the authority of the Imam.

So when I say Maulana Ali was the Dai of the Prophet...he was in fact the Dai of the Imam az'Zaman (the Prophet).

[Muddai]

Qiyam,

yet make statement as though you have an idea what your writing about...when you don't.

You may [arguably] be right....but then again you speak of Safai Chitti, Kadam Bosi, and other Bohri rituals as though you have an idea what your writing about

...when you don't.

[qiyam]

Dear Muddai,
I speak of the other things quoting from the actions and traditions of our Aimmah for those things as well. When you guys are able to defeat my evidences I will unargably concede.

[Muddai]

Qiyam,

You quotes are completely irrelevant to the actual enforcement of the Safai Chitti in the real world.

You have been unable to provide evidence to the contrary.

[qiyam]

Dear Muddai,
we've had this discussion...and none of your opinion support the actual facts of how and when safai chitti is used and not.

[Muddai]

Qiyam,

If you relegate my real world facts (see other posts) into "opinions" and you elevate your opinions to "actual facts" then this discussion with you has once again ended like all the others.

Have a good day....

[qiyam]

Dear Muddai,
If I stated my opinion like you have...then that is one thing...I asked before in another thread what the basis of opinions are. I have stated before stating something as a fact the basis of what I claim. I have been to major cities where bohras live...America, UK, Mumbai, Karachi, Surat, Nairobi, etc. I have family and friends who live in these cities and countries. I know how they live and relations with masjid and communities. Some are shiekhs and mullah..the vast majority are common people.

Based on this background I can honestly say...if the safai chitti, beard, ridha,kurta/siya,etc were enforced as YOU ALL claim...than 90% of the bohras in the world would NOT get one or would be in the red color classification.

I didn't say your opinion was not creditable or that you were lying....but when I compare it to the place and people I have experienced...I can only conclude that your opinion is based on a limited experience.

So for you to claim the thing you have is therefore disingenuine.

[Muddai]

Qiyam,

Sorry to embarrass you here, but the truth must be told. For those who may be so inclined to read this interchange between Qiyam and I, some quotes from Qiyam regarding the same topic {claiming to have "actual facts"}

8/13/2001
it is used for say at hostels of ziyarat, religious actions like burial and daris

9/16/2002
(1) this is required to make sure your financial requirements to the mosque and jamat (sabil) are complete.

(2) This has nothing to do with your practice of Islam outside of the Masjid/Markez.

11/17/2002

it is a letter of introduction from your jamat to the place your going (that your sabil is paid)...and is usually only needed when staying at the musafir khanna.

2/28/2003
A safai chitti is regarding religious items like paying sabil, wajibat, etc....and it is only good for religious institutions.

[qiyam]

Dear Muddai,
I have never stated anything beside what you have posted. I never stated it didn't affect your relations with the jamat or religious institutions. I said it doesn't effect your life outside the religious institutions. But what I did claim is the degree of toleration that IS there, versus the tyranny YOU say exists. If every bohra's safai chitti was solely based on requiring to wear kurta/siyo or ridha outside the masjid/markez or have a beard...than 90% of the bohras wouldn't get one.

What are you embarassing me with?