Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

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Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby jinx on Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:54 am

Okay folks, I would like to have some background information on some of the rasm on pehli raat of muharram when we have this elaborate sumptuous dinner. Proof from Al-Quran, Sunnah and hadith is not required. As this deals with bohri religion anything goes. Feel free to quote from mahabrata or Vedas if it helps :)

1) What is the significant of having this dinner on the night of first Muharram? As we know Imam Hussein and his family members where already in danger and in difficult circumstances, starting from 1st of Muharram so I am asking again, what is there to celebrate and eat all you can?

2) Usually there is certain number of dishes to be placed in thal, something like 6, 9 or 13. Is there any particular number or just as much as you can and the minimum number be 6?

3) We place a Quran, sophari(no idea what it is called in English), betel leaves and coconut in the thal. Why those things? And why do we take the coconut and circle it around the thal 7 times. I am very sure that I have seen my Hindu friend doing Poja with coconut but what the heck are we doing circling the coconut around the thall? Are we doing some sort of bohri poja? or is this some leftover tradition that we inherited from the olden days when all of us were still Hindus including high and mighty burhanuddin and his mafia(khotar)?

4) This questions is regarding the dishes itself. We start the dinner with eating fish and then we have choba(white rice, plus ghee and sugar), sugee, lachka, wheat with sugar and ghee, samosa, kabab, patties, fried chicken, dal chawal and palidu, dessert, fruits. And the next day we have chana batata. My question

i)Why it is a must to have fish on this day? And why do we start the dinner with fish? And we have a little bit fish for the breakfast and lunch for the next day.

ii) Any significant of all the dishes and cuisine I mentioned above?

thanks
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Muslim First on Wed Mar 05, 2003 11:52 am

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Sophari = Beatle Nut

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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Muslim First on Wed Mar 05, 2003 11:56 am

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Sister Jinx

Answer from qiyam would go something like this:

Dear MuslimFirst and Humsafar,
I am tried of your methods of questioning. If YOU haven't heard of something...it must be an innovation. Well my friend...from our discussions...you know little about the sunni version of the sunnah...let alone the shiah version of it. So let's leave it at that.
Wasalaam

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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby ponga bhori on Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:19 pm

"And we have a little bit fish for the breakfast and lunch for the next day."

And everything else as Leftovers, lots of others too.
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Anwar on Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:03 pm

jinx inquired/asked a question, about the tradition/custom that we follow on the first of muharram, and MF has already an answer as to what Br Qiyam is to give and PB has to make fun of it.I do not think its fair to blame the kothar if we follow certain customs or shall I say richuals.Do not mistake me to be a member of kothar or qiyam fan club.Just be fair, sometimes even the reformists can be wrong/misled,
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Aleem on Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:09 am

Sis Jinx:

There is little, most likely no religius reason at all for the thal/coconut/beetle nut (a narcotic substance now banned in bombay) etc.... on pehli raat. (My assumption)

This is just a cultural tradition upheld by our forefathers and I think it is fine so long as it is not put out of context and forced on us as a "RELIGIOUS" ceremony out of faith.

Much like thanksgiving in the USA i suppose.
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Muslim First on Thu Mar 06, 2003 8:39 pm

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Br. Aleem

Then you explain this:

A house of Bohra Friend of mine was being constructed here. He put some qurters (25 Cents) in one corner of the house where slab was going to be poured. He invoked name of Ali (Ya Ali) while burying 'qurters'.

When asked his answer was "Ammara maa Rivaj che'.

To me it was pure act of superstition and also act of Shirk when he invoked anybody's name instead of Allah.

How do you explain it?

Wasalaam

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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Aleem on Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:06 pm

Muslim First:

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my post, or perhaps you misunderstood me.

I say that these things, if out of pure "cultural tradition" - then there is nothhing wrong with them. All cultures/ nationalities/ races/villages/ townahips have there own little cultural tidbits

However , if they are justified as religious acts or requirements of faith - then yes, as you say it can be shirk/ superstition.

With your bohra friends act - I am not familirar with this and am not sure why you are asking me to explain. Perhaps someone else can?
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby GodBless on Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:10 am

A lot of what Jinx pointed is just that, tradition All religions and societies have traditions that dictate types of foods, etc.

To answer your question, yes I am also aware of Nazar Mukkaman money ($1.25 etc.), Taaviz, Dai's Picture, etc. being posted in certain places in a particular direction, when building/buying a new home, or moving into a new one.
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby jinx on Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:16 am

Originally posted by Muslim First:
A house of Bohra Friend of mine was being constructed here. He put some qurters (25 Cents) in one corner of the house where slab was going to be poured. He invoked name of Ali (Ya Ali) while burying 'qurters'.

When asked his answer was "Ammara maa Rivaj che'.
Burying quarters does sound weird. What is the purpose and significant of such actions?

What he means when he say this is wajib for us? I have never heard of such thing. Giving money for charities is good but burying the money sounds strange.

I guess this just go to show that bohras has no clue about their belief.
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby ponga bhori on Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:50 pm

May be these coins may reveal Bhora Civilization when unearthed centuries latter. Useful time capsule those foundations.
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Muslim First on Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:48 pm

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What he means when he say this is wajib for us? I have never heard of such thing. Giving money for charities is good but burying the money sounds strange
No he did not say it is Wajib but said 'Rivaj' that is Custum.

One must not foget that Prophet forbade Pagan customs.

Where is brothe quyam? May be he has some Shia Hadith about burying coins.

Wasalaam

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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby qiyam on Fri Mar 07, 2003 3:36 pm

Instead of first condemning the action as paganistic or shirk you should have researched or asked. I pointed it out before and am doing it now. Just because YOU have never of it or don't understand it...it must BIDAT or SHIRK or PAGAN RITUAL. I am glad that Jinx has changed her ways in this.

The money is a nazr, nazr maqam, and is for the duah of the Imam az'Zaman to Allah to watch over and take care of the event(in MuslimFirst case..the construction of his friend's house). It is no different than putting the pieya of a lamb sacrificed as sadaqa. This is a tradition of the Prophet.
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Abdulla on Fri Mar 07, 2003 3:48 pm

Respected Mulla Qiyam,

As salaam alei kum

================================================
Your quotation: The money is a nazr, nazr maqam, and is for the duah of the Imam az'Zaman to Allah to watch over ================================================

Is the above authentic of the prophetic sunnah?
Is there any mention in the Quran Al- Majid?
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Abdulla on Fri Mar 07, 2003 3:52 pm

What is the difference between thaal wadhawanu and the act the Hindus do as "aarti"
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby qiyam on Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:58 pm

Dear Abdulla,
It is prophetic sunnah...as well as sunnah of the Imams. The method is not described in the Quran..but the intent is.
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Abdulla on Fri Mar 07, 2003 5:51 pm

Respected Brother Qiyam,

Can you quote the proof from the sunnah please.
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Muslim on Fri Mar 07, 2003 7:06 pm

MF has told us this story of his 'friend and the 5 quarters' before, almost exactly a year ago, (maybe he is running out of stories?) but back then the riwayat was a little different, there is no mention of his supposed friend saying 'Ya Ali' - I wonder why?

http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgibin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000504

He also said to me then:

My brother I sincerely thank you for educating me about this custom of yours and next time I see him I will certainly educate him (even thoug it is not my call).

So, MF, I am assuming you have met your friend in the past whole year and educated him. Maybe you should meet him again and ask him to remind you what you taught him in the first place so that you don't have to come back next year to ask everyone about a modified version of the same story?
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Muslim on Fri Mar 07, 2003 7:28 pm

One must not foget that Prophet forbade Pagan customs.
Not quite. Pilgrimage to Mecca, circumambulating the Kaaba and sacrificing a sheep when a child is born are just some of the pagan customs that the Prophet incorporated into Islam.
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby qiyam on Fri Mar 07, 2003 7:44 pm

Imam Jaffer Sadiq (a.s.): "Cure your sick by giving sadaqa or charity, and remove troubles and mishaps by giving charity, and increase sustenance with charity. Charity banishes seventy shaitans from what is within one's beard, and charity goes unto the hand of Allah (s.w.t) before it goes unto the hand of the needy". (BIHAR VOL 96 PAGE 129)

This sadaqa is through the tawassal of Imam az'Zaman...and in the case of MuslimFirst's friend..through the tawassul of Maulana Ali. This is also similar to wearing a tawiz, reciting tasbih, ruqyah with water (karizyo), etc.
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby asif on Sat Mar 08, 2003 7:02 am

Muslim First,
It seems that U just want to show ur superiority by challenging each & every custom/tradition of Bohras & just ridiculing Quiyam on evry aspect.

You posted something like

///
A house of Bohra Friend of mine was being constructed here. He put some qurters (25 Cents) in one corner of the house where slab was going to be poured. He invoked name of Ali (Ya Ali) while burying 'qurters'.

When asked his answer was "Ammara maa Rivaj che'.

To me it was pure act of superstition and also act of Shirk when he invoked anybody's name instead of Allah. ///

Well, I say that Ur belief in Allah itself is superstition. Prove whatever is mentioned in Quaran .
Jinx etal fine that we all condemn Syedna for all his misdeeds etc ,but it seems U ,Mohd. Hussain etc are just ganging up with the sole intention of arguing anything which Quiyam says.
I mean, common guys , all of us have our own custom. If my ancestors are from India I am bound to follow Indian traditions , Why shouldl I follow what Arab tribes do/or did ? Arguing like pehli raat's thaal etc is strange & all such things is taking Ur progressiveness to a little ridiculous length. Don't take religion too seriously !!!!. If u don't want to follow the customs then don't do it ,Y making such a big issue abt it?
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Muslim First on Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:41 pm

This sadaqa is through the tawassal of Imam az'Zaman...and in the case of MuslimFirst's friend..through the tawassul of Maulana Ali. This is also similar to wearing a tawiz, reciting tasbih, ruqyah with water (karizyo), etc.
I would have understood if he had given 5 qurters in charity. Br. qiyam he buried it in the foundation. Are those qurters now usefull to anybody?

What kind of charity is this, Brother qyyam.

Admit it that it was incorrect and Pagan tradition.

Wasalaam

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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Abdulla on Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:05 pm

Not quite. Pilgrimage to Mecca, circumambulating the Kaaba and sacrificing a sheep when a child is born are just some of the pagan customs that the Prophet incorporated into Islam

Dear Brother the above is the sunnah of the prophet Ibrahim (Peace be upon him) and is mentioned in the Quran.. The pagans have copied the ritual to worship the 360 idols in Kaaba.

Quran Chapter 37 Surah Saaffat verses 99-111
Ibrahim said, “I shall go to my Lord. He will guide me. O my Lord! Grant me a son who shall be righteous.” (In answer to this prayer), We gave him the good news of a gentle and clement son (Prophet Ismail). When the boy reached the age to work with him, (one day) Ibrahim said to him, “My son! I have dreamt that I am sacrificing you. Now tell me what you think of it.” He (Ismail) said, “My dear father, do as you are being commanded. You will find me, if Allah so wills, of the patient.” At last, when the two of them had submitted themselves (to Allah), and Ibrahim had flung his son down on his brow, We called out: “O Ibrahim! You have indeed fulfilled your vision.” Thus do we reward the righteous. This was indeed a manifest trial. And We ransomed his son for a great sacrifice (a ram), and left for him praise among posterity for ever. Peace is upon Ibrahim. Thus do We reward the righteous. Indeed, he was one of Our Believing Slaves.
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Abdulla on Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:13 pm

If nazr mukam could be spent as commanded by the prophet saws
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 4.11 A man asked the Prophet (saws), "O Allah's Apostle! What kind of charity is the best?" He (saws) replied. "To give in charity when you are healthy and greedy, hoping to be wealthy and afraid of becoming poor. Don't delay giving in charity till the time when you are on the death bed, when you say, 'Give so much to so-and-so and so much to so-and so,' and at that time the property is not (really) yours, but it belongs to so-and-so (i.e. your inheritors)."
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Muslim on Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:45 pm

Whatever the ultimate origins of the customs, they had clearly become pagan rituals - and Muhammad did not forbid them.

P.S. Whats that verse got to do with the sacrifice of aqeeqa?
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Abdulla on Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:55 pm

Brother,The verse was to prove that the sacrifice ritual is not a pagan ritual
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Muslim on Sun Mar 09, 2003 3:02 pm

I am talking about a particular ritual - sacrificing a sheep <B>when a child is born i.e. AQEEQA</B>, not just any sacrifice in general.
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby Abdulla on Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:00 am

The ‘Aqiqa’ or sacrifice at the birth of a new-born is not a ‘fard’ or obligatory duty in Islam; it is a voluntary deed and a recommended Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (saws).

And the above sunnah is definately not a pagan ritual.
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby humble_servant_us on Mon Mar 10, 2003 4:14 am

_________________________________________________
Abdulla says: What is the difference between thaal wadhawanu and the act the Hindus do as "aarti"

Qiyam replies: It is prophetic sunnah...as well as sunnah of the Imams. The method is not described in the Quran..but the intent is.
_________________________________________________

Well Br. Qiyam I object u on this...Why do u make statements on behalf of prophet(pbuh) and imams(as) without any proof....If u have an authentic proof abt this present it... But if u don't have one and if this statement is just made to support some ritual than i am sorry to say u r sacrificing Islam for the sake of some meaningless ritual...I understand that u have immense love for the Dai and all due respects to it but please do not be blind in the love to support anything which comes along...It is becoz of such baseless statements made by people Islam is looked down upon by other castes...Atleast kill ur egos when u speak something abt prophet(pbuh) , quran and imams(as)...U r not only insulting them but making Islam embarrased...May allah(swt) guide us all...

We all know that the bohras in India are converts frm Hindus so basically it is the rituals and customs of Hindus which has been carried forward and is till continuing among us...thaal wadhaawanu is also one similar custom....But just to justify it is correct we link it with prophet(pbuh), whom are we trying to convince.. our ownselves??

Br. its time when we start accepting the wrong things in us and i think there is no harm or embarrassment in accepting our shortcomings,we should try and improve ourselves to be better muslims , the way Allah(swt) want us to be so that our generations to come may prosper......
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

Unread postby jinx on Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:29 am

Originally posted by asif:
Jinx etal fine that we all condemn Syedna for all his misdeeds etc ,but it seems U ,Mohd. Hussain etc are just ganging up with the sole intention of arguing anything which Quiyam says.
I mean, common guys , all of us have our own custom. If my ancestors are from India I am bound to follow Indian traditions , Why shouldl I follow what Arab tribes do/or did ? Arguing like pehli raat's thaal etc is strange & all such things is taking Ur progressiveness to a little ridiculous length. Don't take religion too seriously !!!!. If u don't want to follow the customs then don't do it ,Y making such a big issue abt it?
Now just hang a sec Br asif..
If you look closely at the topic you will notice that I didn’t object to any pagan or Hindu custom. All I wanted to know is what is the significant of everything and this also on an educational purposes. As for Arab custom and non-Arab custom, I don’t think this is even an issue at least not from my side.
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