Dawoodi Bohra Forum

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Sabra should have been Sabr

Sorry
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Muslim First,

I think you made a typo.

"It is said in verse (12:18): "And Allah is He Whose help is to be sought against what you describe." There are two necessary conditions for seeking help from God: sabr (patience) and salâh (prayer) (2:45, 153). Sabr in ta'wil is the Messenger and salâh is the Imam. It is only through them the help of God can be sought. If it were possible to attain God's help by fulfilling external conditions only, then even the people of the Book would have done so." [Source: Tawil 809: A Thousand Wisdoms]"

Br. Kalim,

Is that the more "intellectual approach" to Islam that you talked about? where sabr is the messenger and salah is the Imam?

anajmi,

Since you have been asking for an Ismaili interpretation of Quran long time, I am posting an interpretation of part of ayat 47:15 by Sayedna Muhammad Burhanuddin. This is highly truncated portion of a waez which was almost 3 hours long during which each of the rivers is explored in considerable depth.

I am still searching for the interpretation of al-Fatiha.

You must remember that this is meant for the faithful. Just as it would not be appropriate to ask Nabi the source of his knowledge, a Bohra would consider unthinkable asking Dai for source of this knowledge. However, in the waez, Sayedna acknowledges debt to Qazi Noman, author of Daaimul Islam.

(Remember Sayedna uses both Arabic and Lisaanud Daawat in his waez)

*************

47:15 (My, almost literal,translation)

Paradise that has been promised for the devout (muttaqun) is like one in which there are rivers of water which never goes stale, rivers of milk whose taste never changes, rivers of wine which is delicious for the drinkers, rivers of purified honey...

**************

From Sayedna Muhammad Burhanuddin

The baatin of the four rivers mentioned in this ayat is that they refer to Nabi Muhammad, Wasi Ali, Imams and the Dais.

The first type of river refers to Nabi's Shariat, which is always fresh. Some people object and ask how 1400 years old shariat can be as fresh today. Nabi's sahriat will remain fresh till Qayamat. In our own time, Shariat is holding sway. That is because of all shariats, rasulullah's shariat is supreme. Just like his family (aal) is supreme, in that all the supreme beings (Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain) were present on earth at the same time. That is because Allah has declared these five pure. Those who do not follow these five are indeed in grave loss.

The second type of river, that of milk, refers to the knowledge of Wasi, Ali ibn Abi Talib. This is the knowledge of taawil. Tanzil (Quran) cannot be understood without taawil. Tanzil is zaahir and taawil is baatin. Sayedna Taher Saifuddin was asked if Imams were mentioned in the Quran. He pointed to ayat 'Kul shay ahshaynahu fi imamin mubeen'. People objected and said that means 'clear writing'. Sayedna asked what the original word in Arabic is. Ali is the repository of taawil

Once Rasulullah was seated amongst his companions, while Ali was cleaning his (Rasulullah's) shoes. He asked them if anyone among them could instruct taawil? Awwal (Abu Bakr), haughtily asked if it was him. Rasul said no. Thani (Umar) asked if it was him. Rasul again said no. The third (Usman), out of shame, did not ask if it was him but he asked Rasul to point out who it might be. Rasul said "It is he who cleans my shoes. It is Ali. Taawil in this is that Ali is the one who will uncover the inner meaning of tanzil (quran), which I have brought to you. Thus Muhammad without Ali and Ali without Muhammad canot be. Both Tanzil and taawil are essential."

The milk whose taste never changes also refers to steadfastness of Ali through innumerable tests which befell him during his life in order to protect Islam.

The third type of river is the river of seeds or source from which imbibers will experience bliss. (It does not mean any alcoholic drink. That would not be in the character of the Quran). The meaning of khamr is not wine, but khameerah, which means source. Source is Fatima and the river of source is the imams which came from her seed. In connection with this ayat, Rasulullah called Imam Husain "lazzatin lil-shabireen", one with the most delicious drink.

The fourth type of river is the river of Duaat Mutlaqeen. It is through them that Shariat of Rasululla is kept pure. The Dais are, in effect, mustawda Imams (Mustawda means appointed as trustee).

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Br. porus,

Thank you very much for taking the time to compile this information and posting it over here.

I have to tell you, the more I discuss with you and read this batini, taawil stuff from the bohras and the Ismailis, the more my faith increases, the more I realize that I have made the right choice.

I actually thought of a lot of funny things to post but I am trying to avoid that.

Thanks again.

I will appreciate it if you can find the interpretation/translation, baatin/taawil, literal/otherwise of the first surah.

porus,

Can you tell where I can get a copy of Daimul Islam from?

Muslim,

That page list The Pillars of Islam (Hardcover)
by Ismail Kurban Husein Poonawala. Is that the same as Daimul Islam by Qazi Noman? (a translation may be?)

Following are ISBN number for English translation of D'a'Im Al-Islam;

Vol. I: Ibadat: Acts of Devotion and Religious Observances: the Pillars of Islam D'a'Im Al-Islam of Al-Qadial Numan (Translated By Asaf Ali Asghar Fyzee)
by Ismail Kurban Husein Poonawala

ISBN: 0195655354

The Pillars of Islam: Vol. II Laws Pertaining to Human Intercourse D'a'Im Al-Islam of Al-Qadi Al-Numan
by Ismail Kurban Husein Poonawala, Asaf A A Fyzee

ISBN: 0195667840

Yes, thats the English translation of Qadi al-Numan's Daaimul Islam (Pillars of Islam). Asaf Fyzee was the original translator and Ismail Poonawala has edited the translation.

The link I posted was the first of two volumes. The second volume is this:
http://www.us.oup.com/us/catalog/genera ... 0195667840

Rasulullah called Imam Husain "lazzatin lil-shabireen", one with the most delicious drink.

There is typo in the above sentence from my earlier post. It should of course read lazzatin lil-sharibeen

To be fair to Sayedna, I have also omitted all the salutations from the above post after tne names of Rasulullah, Ali, Fatima and Imams. Sayedna always uses these salutations (like sallallahu alayhi wa-sallam etc.)

porus,

What does it mean when the prophet (saw) called Imam Hussein the one "with" the most delicious drink?

Porous: I have read and re read the interpretation of the surah. I was just wondering that how did syedna come by that interpretation. As you also mentioned that one should not ask the source of knowledge from dai. how are we to know, if this interpretation has any history behind it, and it is not merely an innovation by a jamea ustad. I have always noticed that syedna delivers sermons from takht, with the help of already prepared notes, i can safely assume that they are prepared by syedna's deewan, or some one in and from jamea. even in fatimid history this kind of interpretation is not present. this will also give quran entirely diffrent meaning, which will be far different from main stream islam. morever this interpratation will and cannot stand the scrutiny of logic. I have one example of syedna's hikayat. during last year or a year before in muharram waiz, syedna narrated one hikaya about karbala, that essa was with one of his apostle, and he was searching for some lindis, his apostle asked essa, what is he looking for, essa replied, that I am smelling these lindis, if they have fragrance in it, then this will be karbala, where hussain is to be martyred. this is far beyond the stretching of imagination. I can reasonably rest assured, that this narration does not have any historical back ground, let alone a solid historical refrence. this will also reveal the intlectuality of the whole doctrine.

.Br. Accountability, AS

Br. Anajmi has pointed out possible answer in important part of sura 3: Ayah 7

"But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings"

Wasalaam
.

MF,

That really is not a satisfactory answer for the following reasons:

1. How does one know which parts are allegorical? Quran is silent on this.

2. Bohras believe that there is baatin in every ayat, not just some of them?

3. ayat 3:7 is ambiguous. Is taawil known only to God? Or is it known also to rasikhoon? If it is known only to God, why would God want to include it in a message sent to mankind, which He claims is clear to all?

4. Rasikhoon are not "searching" for the inner meaning. The already know it.

5. Rasikhoon are excluded, by implication, from those with "perversity in their hearts".

6. Would you exclude Rasulullah from among rasikhoon? Ali? Pure Imams? Even the Dai? Why?

And who would you include among rasikhoon?

Do you know history of Muawiyah and his son Yazid? Would you say they had perversity in their hearts? Or just because they were Caliphs, would you number them among "rasikhoon fil ilm-il Quran"?

anajmi,

lazzatin lil-sharibeen

I think he meant that Imam Husain's specific knowledge of faith is/will be unsurpassed among Imams.

accountability,

All human knowledge is based on speculations by individual human beings. History also has heavy component of speculation, value-judgment and hypotheses. Saqme applies to scriptures.

I do not know if there is any ultimate 'truth'. The best attitude is to remain a detached observer and help individuals close to you who might have attached themselves to one version of "truth" as they see it and suffer pain because of it.

Originally posted by porus:

I do not know if there is any ultimate 'truth'. The best attitude is to remain a detached observer and help individuals close to you who might have attached themselves to one version of "truth" as they see it and suffer pain because of it.

This is very close to what 'Bhagvad Gita' preaches. The attitude of datachment inspite of being involved in worldly activities.

Karmanye Vadhikaraste Ma Phaleshu Kadachana,
Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangostva Akarmani

Meaning: Do your duty and be detached from its outcome, do not be driven by the end product, enjoy the process of getting there.

Tahir:

"Re:Karmanye Vadhikaraste Ma Phaleshu Kadachana,
Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangostva Akarmani

Meaning: Do your duty and be detached from its outcome, do not be driven by the end product, enjoy the process of getting there. "

Perhaps this adage cannot be applied to Project Management in general. If one does not have the focus to get to the end product, or the final result/outcome, doing ones duty and enjoying the process in getting there may lead to an astronomical overrun of not only the time but the cost of the project as well.

Just a thought!!

This saying applies to different kinds of people, for eg a rapist. He is not worried about the consequences of his actions. He is doing his duty and he enjoys the process of getting there.

Same can be said about a thief or a murderer.

And people who are worried about the consequences of rape, theft or murder, are the ones that do not usually commit these acts.

mbohra,
There is a difference between 'focus' and 'detachment'. One may be focussed at the result but still be detached from the same. He would maintain an equipoise and neither celebrate the success nor lament the failure since he believes that whatever happens is the will of God. So one should inculcate the spirit of detached karmas and keep doing his duties without expectation of results. In reality, it takes years to inculcate this spirit (and to understand it in the first place).

Actually, there are detailed and complex interpretetions of that shloka available on the net if you are interested. I just posted a layman's meaning in short.

anajmi,
Remember the importance of 'intention'!

tahir,

I am not sure what you are trying to say about intent but this is what the prophet has said about it -

If a person intends to do a bad deed and does not do it, a good deed is recorded for him, if a person intends to do a bad deed and does it then a bad deed is recorded for him.

If a person intends to do a good deed and does not do it, a good deed is recorded for him and if a person intends to do a good deed and does it, ten good deeds are recorded for him.

Is there any haqiaqa theology which explains
as to why was born to the family which i am born?
is there any theory which says that we had many
births before we accept the right imam and become
mumin.Do we have any haqiqa truths which explains
the metempsychosis i.e transmigration of souls
from one form of life to the another.eg a mineral
might be trnsformed to an animal and then an animal could take a form of a man and vice versa
based on the gravity of sind or darkness one is
plunged into.The ultimate and the final which
end this cycle of birth and death is by being
a MUMIN,after which heaven is our ultimate
destination

Can any one provide a refernce to where we can find a translation of Hazrat Ali's Najhat ul Balagah.

Regards

Peak of Eloquence - Nahjul Balaga
Sermons, Letters and Sayings of Hazrat Ali
By Islamic Seminary
is the best book I have come across so far.
Available at:

The Islamic Seminary
127, Liberty Rod, Englewood,
New Jersey, USA.

Habib Valiji,
268, Kilburn High Road,
London NW6

Bilal Muslim Mission
PO Box 46325,
Nairobi Kenya

The Islamic Seminary Pakistan,
PO Box 5425, Karachi

The Islamic Seminary India,
150 Sheriff Devji Street,
Mumbai - 400003

also available at amazon

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/searc ... words=Peak of Eloquence"> Peak of Eloquence</a>

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