How many imams do the Bohras believe in?

[Samadam]

As Salaam U Aleikum.

Unfortunately my first two posts didn't initiate any replies... hopefully this will.

I know that Bohras believe in 21 imams (or rather that the 21st went into occultation). However, is it the belief that the 21st Imam is still living today... or is it that he has passed on from this world and it is someone from his lineage. If it's the latter, then does anyone know how many imams have come and gone?

[Muslim]

The latter. And no, there is no way of knowing how many imams have gone.

[jinx]

Historically, Bohras had about 24 Imams(approx) in egypt. But the woman(ruler of yemen) fabricated a story about the last Imam being 21st. The concept of hidden Imam of bohras originated from The 12ver Shia.

[porus]

No, the concept of "Hidden Imam" originated with Ali. But first application was with Ismailies in that the son, grandson and great-grandson of Ismail went into occultation. Occultation ended with the appearance of Imam Mahdi, the first Fatimid Caliph, in Egypt.

[kabeer19922001]

Porus

Can you explain what you mean by "the concept of Hidden Imam started with Ali""

[Musafir]

Don't you think Imamat is still on with the present Aga Khan Karim al hussaini. He is the 49th Imam form the Nas of Hazrat Ali. The lineage is, 1-Mowlana Ali, 2-Mowlana Hussain, 3-Mowlana Zain Ul abedin, 4-Mowlana Mohd Baqir, 5-Mowlana Jaffer Sadiq, 6-Mowlana Ismail, 7-Mowlana Mohd. Ismail, 8-Mowlana Wafi Ahmed,9-Mowlana Taqi mohd, 10-Molana Raziuddin Abdulla, 11-Mowlana Mohd Mehdi, 12-Mowlana Qaim, 13-Mowlana Mansoor, 14-Mowlana Moez, 15-Molwana Aziz, 16-Mowlana Hakim Bi Amrillah, 17-Mowlana Zahir, 18-Mowlana Mustansirbillah, 19-Mowlana Nizar, 20-Mowlana Hadi, 21-Mowlana Mohtedi,22- Mowlana Qaim,
23- Mowlan Ala zikre salam, 24-Mowlana Alla mohd, 25-Mowlana Jalaudin hasan, 26-Mowlana allaudin mohd,27- Mowlana Rknudin Khair shah,28- Mowlana Sahmsuddin mohd, 29-Mowlana Qasim Shah,30- Mowlana Islam Shah, 31-Mowlana Mohd Ibne Islam shah,32-Mowlana Mustansir billah 33-Mowlana Abdus Salam,34-Mowlana Gharib Mirza,35- Mowlana Abuzar ali, 36-Mowlana Murad Mirza, 37-Mowlana Zulfiqar Ali,38- Mowlana Noordin Ali, 39-Mowlana Khalil ilahi ali,40- Mowlana Nizar, 41-Mowlana Syed Ali,42- Mowlana Hasan ali, 43Mowlana Qasim ali, 44-Mowlana abul hasan ali, 45-Mowlana Khalil lilah ali, 46-Mowlana Shah hasan ali, 47-Mowlana Shah Ali Shah, 48Mowlana Sultan Mohd Shah,49- Mowlana Shah Karim.

[porus]

The names in Musafir's Aga Khani list of Imams from 1 (Ali) to 18 (Mowlana Mustansirbillah) is shared with Bohras, except....

For Bohras, Ali is considered asas (foundation of Imamat and Wasi of Rasulullah. The first Imam of the Bohras is Imam Hasan.

Bohras and Aga Khanis followed the same system as the Fatimids until Aga Khan 3 eliminated Hasan from the list and made Ali the Imam. In this Aga Khan 3 probably followed his immediate ancestors, who according to Akbarally Meherally, were twelvers. His reason for eliminating Hasan was that he claimed Hasan to be mustawda, holiding Imamat in trust for Husain.

The reason or historical basis for the Aga Khan's claim that Hasan was mustawda is not clear.

[anajmi]

porus,

The reason or historical basis for the Aga Khan's claim that Hasan was mustawda is not clear.

Considering the fact that Aga Khan is the living Imam/Quran-e-natiq, does he need to have a reason or historical basis for anything that he might decide to claim or do?

[anajmi]

Besides according to scholars, this is an intellectual approach to religion.

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:
Considering the fact that Aga Khan is the living Imam/Quran-e-natiq, does he need to have a reason or historical basis for anything that he might decide to claim or do?

anajmi,

Even if Aga Khan has a reason for anything, his 'blind' followers are unlikely to seek it from him. However, he might feel compassionate towards people like me who have "intellectual approah to religion" and free us from our desperate need to know

[anajmi]

I don't think Aga Khan's intellectual approach to religion allows him to free you from your desperate need to know.

[anajmi]

Besides, people like yourself have killed the credibility of the label "blind followers"!! Everyone who believes in anything based upon faith becomes a blind follower.

Infact I now believe there is no such thing as a blind follower, there is only those who follow the truth and those who follow falsehood.

[Samadam]

As Salaam U Aleikum Wr Wb,

Brother Muslim, wouldn't the 'daii' know, how many imams have passed?

Furthermore, Rasool (saaws) has said that whoever doesn't know the imam of his time (or give him ba'yaa') wil die a death of ignorance. This is recorded not only in shia ahadith but also sunni. Thus, wouldn't that pose a problem, if you didn't know 'who' your imam was?

[Africawala]

Dear Porus,

Bohras and Aga Khanis followed the same system as the Fatimids until Aga Khan 3 eliminated Hasan from the list and made Ali the Imam. In this Aga Khan 3 probably followed his immediate ancestors, who according to Akbarally Meherally, were twelvers. His reason for eliminating Hasan was that he claimed Hasan to be mustawda, holiding Imamat in trust for Husain.

A.M. is not an authority on Ismailism. He is not even a scholar. Aga Khan III's mother was IthnaAsheri; she was an Iranian Princess by birth; there was persecution of Ismailis in Iran and the Ismailis practiced Taqqiya, but Aga III's ancestors were not Twelvers.

As regards Mustawada Imams, instead of A.M. who is not a scholar, read your own Bohora scholar's version of Mustawada Imams.

I believe Late Professor Dr. Zahid Ali wrote a book on Ismaili Mazhab and its Organization which is in Urdu - I do not know the exact title but Dr. Zahid Ali's book is very famous and he was one of the leading intellectuals. His whole collection of priceless Ismaili manuscripts inherited by his family was bequeathed to IIS.

In his book, the Bohra late Professor explains the doctrines of mustaqarr and mustawda Imams - He even stated that Hazrat Abu Talib was Imam-e-Mustaqar and Prophet Muhammad was Imam-e-Mustawda. I cannot tell you whether I accept this or not because I am not a scholar. To reach such a conclusion needs a lot of research. Unlike some people in this forum, I do not like to shoot my mouth off on sensitive religious doctrines. However, I believe he has addressed this subject at length.

Africawala

[anajmi]

I cannot tell you whether I accept this or not because I am not a scholar. To reach such a conclusion needs a lot of research. Unlike some people in this forum, I do not like to shoot my mouth off on sensitive religious doctrines.

No wonder you remain ignorant.

[Africawala]

No wonder you remain ignorant.

Look who is talking? If it is not the only "POtty mouth" on this forum. Didn't somebody say on this forum that "You are a waste on the screen". If you were so intelligent, people would not say so about you? Would they? Bavaji, isn't it time for you to go to bed as yet? And don't try to hijack the issue. If you have nothing sensible to say then retire to your bathroom! May be you will get some peace after that.

Africawala

Africawala

[anajmi]

Africawala,

Africawala,

stop thinking about anajmi anajmi anajmi.

anajmi

anajmi

[anajmi]

By the way, do I have to sign every post after I finish it?

anajmi

anajmi

anajmi

[porus]

Africawala,

Are you aware of Navali, an Aga Khani? He has written at length about Muhammad being Mustawda Imam and Ali being Mustaqar Imam. Maybe he got it from Zahid Ali.

This is a revisionist Ismaili dogma not shared by Bohras. It is certainly not of Fatimid origin.

A phrase is sometimes used by Bohras to describe the head of the community from Muhammad, Ali and all the Imams. That phrase is Sahebb-e-Daawat.

So Muhammad was Saheb-e-Daawat in his time , Ali in his time and so forth.

[Muslim]

Brother Muslim, wouldn't the 'daii' know, how many imams have passed?

Assuming the dai is a true representative of the imam, maybe he knows but as far as I know it has not been disclosed. It may be that that knowledge is 'hidden' just as the identity of the imam.


Furthermore, Rasool (saaws) has said that whoever doesn't know the imam of his time (or give him ba'yaa') wil die a death of ignorance. This is recorded not only in shia ahadith but also sunni. Thus, wouldn't that pose a problem, if you didn't know 'who' your imam was?

Suppose this hadith was correct. What do you then interpret 'knowing your imam' to mean?

Does it mean simply knowing the name of the imam? If so, how can it be that simply knowing a name of a person can somehow mean the difference between salvation and death of jahiliyya. Suppose an extreme evil-doer happens to know the name of the current imam - does that mean he is saved? Suppose a good person before the occultation of the al-Mahdi happened to live in an extremely remote area cut off from the rest of the world so he can't know the name of the current imam, why should he die a death of jahiliyya?

Could 'knowing' mean physically being in contact and personally knowing the imam? If so, neither the majority of Bohras nor that of Twelvers can claim to know their imam so they all fail the test.

Could 'knowing' mean believing and following the imam? Again Twelvers can't claim to know their imam, they don't actually know what their imam is telling them or how to follow him, except through traditions that have been handed down over a thousand years or through self-appointed mujtahids who have no direct contact with the imam. So in effect Twelvers obtain their guidance the same way as Sunnis - through traditions, and not through a living and guiding imam. Only the indoctrinated Bohras can possibly claim to 'know' their imam in this way because they claim the Dai is the true representative and he passes on the guidance from him. The Twelvers have no direct representative of the imam.

So you are left with two options - either the hadith is fabricated or 'knowing' should be interpreted in the loosest sense of the word.

Of course the Nizari Ismailis 'know' their imam however you look at it.

[anajmi]

Muslim,

serendipity comes to mind and what she would've posted in this case. She would've said - "You need to reach a certain level of humility to know the Imam. Once you attain that level of humility you will know the Imam and you will know what "knowing the Imam" means."