Since the month of Moharram is appraoching, it would be pertinent to raise the following questions:
a) why do we Bohri's have the "thal" rasam
b) what is the significance of "matam"
c) is doing "matam" one of the Pillars of Faith
d) what does the Quran say about the practice of "matam"
e) how far is it true that Sayedna has the authority to take all Bohra's to heaven. Is the statement applicable to all Bohra's including the rapists and sodomists who have now appeared in the Barkat e Haidery Jamaat in Karachi.
I would like some comments from my Bohra Brothers. Br. Abdullah your quotes are mainly from Isalmhelpline, which I have gone through in detail.
Moharram
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
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Al Bukhari recorded that Umm Atiyah said, "The Messenger of Allah SAW took our pledge and recited to us the Ayah 60.12 and forbade us to wail for the dead. thereupon, a lady withdrew her hand saying 'But such and such lady shared with me lamenting (over one of my relatives), so I must reward hers.' The Prophet SAW did not object ot that, so she went there and returned to the Prophet and accepted her pledge of allegiance. (Fath Al-Bari 8:506)
Also
Ibn Masud narrated that the Prophet said:
He who beats his face and tears his clothing, lamenting heis fate concerning misfortune, is dooing that which was done in the [pre-Islamic] period of ignorance and is not one of us.
[Related by la-Bukhari and Muslim]
.
Al Bukhari recorded that Umm Atiyah said, "The Messenger of Allah SAW took our pledge and recited to us the Ayah 60.12 and forbade us to wail for the dead. thereupon, a lady withdrew her hand saying 'But such and such lady shared with me lamenting (over one of my relatives), so I must reward hers.' The Prophet SAW did not object ot that, so she went there and returned to the Prophet and accepted her pledge of allegiance. (Fath Al-Bari 8:506)
Also
Ibn Masud narrated that the Prophet said:
He who beats his face and tears his clothing, lamenting heis fate concerning misfortune, is dooing that which was done in the [pre-Islamic] period of ignorance and is not one of us.
[Related by la-Bukhari and Muslim]
.
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Sajid Zafar
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:01 am
Re: Moharram
AoA WB,
a) why do we Bohri's have the "thal" rasam: Nothing wrong in eating in Thal. It is a personal choice. People can eat the way they like. There is nothing wrong in eating Thal provided personal hygien is maintained strictly.
b) what is the significance of "matam": Zero; only ones Aamals will be counted at the final day of judgment. It is very important.
c) is doing "matam" one of the Pillars of Faith: To my knowledge, no.
d) what does the Quran say about the practice of "matam": I have no knowledge of any mention of performing "Matam" for the reason we Bohras [& Twelvers & probably Druz & Alawaits] perform.
e) how far is it true that Sayedna has the authority to take all Bohra's to heaven. Is the statement applicable to all Bohra's including the rapists and sodomists who have now appeared in the Barkat e Haidery Jamaat in Karachi: Sayedna is human being, just a person of his own greed, serving his own purpose to accumulate more & more wealth & power. Our fellow Bohras has given him a place next to god. He considers himself as a "Fatimi Khalifa". He issues ferman with royal seal, which is received in the same way like Khalifa, & Shahs used to do. He distributes titles and khilats and accepts huge amount of money as Khalifa & Shahs used to do. I am sure he will be accounted at the final day of judgment for sins he has committed against his fellow community members, against muslim ummah and of coarse against humanity.
The fact is "Iswah-e-Husaini" has never been followed by muslim ummah. I don't think any rational minded muslim has any doubt in his mind about the purpose of Imam Husain sacrifices. It was the fight of "Just" against "Un-just". It is more important to follow his sunnah (which is the sunnah of prophet, PBUH) rather than to perform "Matem" every now & than as has been customized by Saydna and his stooges.
a) why do we Bohri's have the "thal" rasam: Nothing wrong in eating in Thal. It is a personal choice. People can eat the way they like. There is nothing wrong in eating Thal provided personal hygien is maintained strictly.
b) what is the significance of "matam": Zero; only ones Aamals will be counted at the final day of judgment. It is very important.
c) is doing "matam" one of the Pillars of Faith: To my knowledge, no.
d) what does the Quran say about the practice of "matam": I have no knowledge of any mention of performing "Matam" for the reason we Bohras [& Twelvers & probably Druz & Alawaits] perform.
e) how far is it true that Sayedna has the authority to take all Bohra's to heaven. Is the statement applicable to all Bohra's including the rapists and sodomists who have now appeared in the Barkat e Haidery Jamaat in Karachi: Sayedna is human being, just a person of his own greed, serving his own purpose to accumulate more & more wealth & power. Our fellow Bohras has given him a place next to god. He considers himself as a "Fatimi Khalifa". He issues ferman with royal seal, which is received in the same way like Khalifa, & Shahs used to do. He distributes titles and khilats and accepts huge amount of money as Khalifa & Shahs used to do. I am sure he will be accounted at the final day of judgment for sins he has committed against his fellow community members, against muslim ummah and of coarse against humanity.
The fact is "Iswah-e-Husaini" has never been followed by muslim ummah. I don't think any rational minded muslim has any doubt in his mind about the purpose of Imam Husain sacrifices. It was the fight of "Just" against "Un-just". It is more important to follow his sunnah (which is the sunnah of prophet, PBUH) rather than to perform "Matem" every now & than as has been customized by Saydna and his stooges.
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ponga bhori
- Posts: 410
- Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
Bros,
I guess by "a) why do we Bohri's have the "thal" rasam." answer is sought for the RASM (ritual) of the First Day Mohram THAL and not EATING at thal.
Everyhting is wrong with the RASM of thal, in some households it goes to AARTI wHADAVNOO WITH DIWA et al.....HINDU STYLE.
I guess by "a) why do we Bohri's have the "thal" rasam." answer is sought for the RASM (ritual) of the First Day Mohram THAL and not EATING at thal.
Everyhting is wrong with the RASM of thal, in some households it goes to AARTI wHADAVNOO WITH DIWA et al.....HINDU STYLE.
Re: Moharram
Re: The mourning for Imam Hussain, various arguments are presented here:
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/islam/0000103.php
Prophet Yakub is said to have cried until he lost his sight.
Matam has been a way of mourning since the time of the Prophet. It is not a pillar of faith, and it is not compulsory to do matam (but neither is it forbidden).
I'll quote one particular part from the above link:
Abbas narrates: "I heard Aisha saying "The Messenger of God died on my bosom during my turn, I did not wrong anyone in regard to him. It was because of my ignorance and youthfulness that the Messenger of God died while he was in my lap. Then I laid his head on a pillow and got up beating my chest and slapping my face along with the women". - al Tabari in History Volume 9 page 183
Having said that, Bohras have gone over top and now do matam on every single occasion. This wasn't the case in the past. My personal observation is that in many instances Bohras are doing matam not because of a feeling of mourning that is driving them, but rather because of pressure and brainwashing that has led them to think it will give them an automatic entry to paradise. As Sajid said, the emphasis should be on deeds, not on such rituals.
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Re: MF's post above,
A. Bohras neither beat their face nor tear their clothes.
B. part of it reads "The Prophet SAW did not object to that" - did you read THAT part? also, is the hadith regarding a particular event - or is it a universal law that he was setting? did you stop to think that?
C. it defies common sense that the Prophet would forbid wailing just as it would, for example, to say that the Prophet forbade laughing.
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/islam/0000103.php
Prophet Yakub is said to have cried until he lost his sight.
Matam has been a way of mourning since the time of the Prophet. It is not a pillar of faith, and it is not compulsory to do matam (but neither is it forbidden).
I'll quote one particular part from the above link:
Abbas narrates: "I heard Aisha saying "The Messenger of God died on my bosom during my turn, I did not wrong anyone in regard to him. It was because of my ignorance and youthfulness that the Messenger of God died while he was in my lap. Then I laid his head on a pillow and got up beating my chest and slapping my face along with the women". - al Tabari in History Volume 9 page 183
Having said that, Bohras have gone over top and now do matam on every single occasion. This wasn't the case in the past. My personal observation is that in many instances Bohras are doing matam not because of a feeling of mourning that is driving them, but rather because of pressure and brainwashing that has led them to think it will give them an automatic entry to paradise. As Sajid said, the emphasis should be on deeds, not on such rituals.
-----------
Re: MF's post above,
A. Bohras neither beat their face nor tear their clothes.
B. part of it reads "The Prophet SAW did not object to that" - did you read THAT part? also, is the hadith regarding a particular event - or is it a universal law that he was setting? did you stop to think that?
C. it defies common sense that the Prophet would forbid wailing just as it would, for example, to say that the Prophet forbade laughing.
Re: Moharram
Reading verse 60/12 it becomes clear how different the injunction is from mourning Imam Hussain. The mourners see the Imam's struggle as a victory, and consider martyrs not dead and forgotten, but symbolically very much alive. This is far from the despair that the Quran is talking about in 60/12.The Messenger of Allah SAW took our pledge and recited to us the Ayah 60.12
An additional link-
Reasons Behind the Commemoration of Imam al-Husain (AS)
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter5b/3.html
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khan19922001
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Moharram
Dear Brothers
I have gone to the Shia website via the link given by a Brother. The Article quotes numerous lines fron the Bible in support of matam and only one vague quote from the Holy Quran. When I say vague, I mean not the Quran Ayat but its interpretation. The ayats referred to Sarah AS beating herself on hearing that God would give her a son. This beating was more out of disbelief and surprise rather than out of mourning. As such I cannot beleive that this Ayat in any way condones the act of Matam as is being done now.
Regarding the various Hadith and narrations, nowhere it has been shown that the Prophet (PBUH) did matam. The fact that he did stop others cannot be interpreted as his approval.
DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY COMMENTS.
I have gone to the Shia website via the link given by a Brother. The Article quotes numerous lines fron the Bible in support of matam and only one vague quote from the Holy Quran. When I say vague, I mean not the Quran Ayat but its interpretation. The ayats referred to Sarah AS beating herself on hearing that God would give her a son. This beating was more out of disbelief and surprise rather than out of mourning. As such I cannot beleive that this Ayat in any way condones the act of Matam as is being done now.
Regarding the various Hadith and narrations, nowhere it has been shown that the Prophet (PBUH) did matam. The fact that he did stop others cannot be interpreted as his approval.
DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY COMMENTS.
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
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Br. Khan
I have qouted 2 Hadiths that prophet forbade people to wail after the dead. I am reposting both of the ahadith:
*********************
Al Bukhari recorded that Umm Atiyah said, "The Messenger of Allah SAW took our pledge and recited to us the Ayah 60.12 and forbade us to wail for the dead. thereupon, a lady withdrew her hand saying 'But such and such lady shared with me lamenting (over one of my relatives), so I must reward hers.' The Prophet SAW did not object ot that, so she went there and returned to the Prophet and accepted her pledge of allegiance. (Fath Al-Bari 8:506)
Also
Ibn Masud narrated that the Prophet said:
He who beats his face and tears his clothing, lamenting his fate concerning misfortune, is dooing that which was done in the [pre-Islamic] period of ignorance and is not one of us.
[Related by la-Bukhari and Muslim]
**************
First Hadith I encountered when I was reading Tafsir Ibn Khathir.[Volume 9 page 605] It is not material that it appeared in explaination of 60:12. What matters is that he forbade a group of ladies who wanted to pledge Bayah to him not to wail for the dead. When one Lady hasitated saying that she was obldged to reaturn a favour (Wail for soebody who had waied for her). So prophet was very considerate and let her fulfill her obligation.
In second Hadit which I copied from "A Treasury of Ahadith by Dr. Mazhar Kazi) clearly states that " He who beats his face and tears his clothing, lamenting his fate concerning misfortune etc." are not from us. " Are not from us " I understand as are not Muslim.
Br. Muslim claims that Bohras do not beat their face or tear their clothes. I say that is nit-picking.
Br. Muslim is quick to post a Hadit that Aisha RA beat her chest when prophet passed away. Now look at this. These are the same people who hate Aisha and wluld not even take a single Hadith from her but when it suites their purpose they will gladly qoute her. These kind of people are usually called 'Hypocrates'.
In general look at Shias, They make fool of themself on Mumarram. Ocaasion of Sorrow has turned into big 'Tamasha'. They get high by infilictiiong pain on themself. I have yet to see a rteligious support for this so called 'Maatam'
Wasalaam
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Br. Khan
I have qouted 2 Hadiths that prophet forbade people to wail after the dead. I am reposting both of the ahadith:
*********************
Al Bukhari recorded that Umm Atiyah said, "The Messenger of Allah SAW took our pledge and recited to us the Ayah 60.12 and forbade us to wail for the dead. thereupon, a lady withdrew her hand saying 'But such and such lady shared with me lamenting (over one of my relatives), so I must reward hers.' The Prophet SAW did not object ot that, so she went there and returned to the Prophet and accepted her pledge of allegiance. (Fath Al-Bari 8:506)
Also
Ibn Masud narrated that the Prophet said:
He who beats his face and tears his clothing, lamenting his fate concerning misfortune, is dooing that which was done in the [pre-Islamic] period of ignorance and is not one of us.
[Related by la-Bukhari and Muslim]
**************
First Hadith I encountered when I was reading Tafsir Ibn Khathir.[Volume 9 page 605] It is not material that it appeared in explaination of 60:12. What matters is that he forbade a group of ladies who wanted to pledge Bayah to him not to wail for the dead. When one Lady hasitated saying that she was obldged to reaturn a favour (Wail for soebody who had waied for her). So prophet was very considerate and let her fulfill her obligation.
In second Hadit which I copied from "A Treasury of Ahadith by Dr. Mazhar Kazi) clearly states that " He who beats his face and tears his clothing, lamenting his fate concerning misfortune etc." are not from us. " Are not from us " I understand as are not Muslim.
Br. Muslim claims that Bohras do not beat their face or tear their clothes. I say that is nit-picking.
Br. Muslim is quick to post a Hadit that Aisha RA beat her chest when prophet passed away. Now look at this. These are the same people who hate Aisha and wluld not even take a single Hadith from her but when it suites their purpose they will gladly qoute her. These kind of people are usually called 'Hypocrates'.
In general look at Shias, They make fool of themself on Mumarram. Ocaasion of Sorrow has turned into big 'Tamasha'. They get high by infilictiiong pain on themself. I have yet to see a rteligious support for this so called 'Maatam'
Wasalaam
.
Re: Moharram
Khan,
According to the Quran, if something has not been explicitly forbidden then it is allowed. If there is no proof that matam was forbidden, then it is allowed. In fact, we have evidence that matam at the loss of loved ones was the norm during the Prophet's time, and it continued to be the norm. This refutes the argument of matam being forbidden/bidah or any such nonsense.
Now, if you think that there is not enough support for matam, then its simple, DON'T DO IT. It is not compulsory, it is not a pillar of Islam, and nobody is forcing you to do it, but don't tell others who do it that it is forbidden because you would be lying. It should be the mourning of Imam Hussain that should lead you to do matam, not a religous injunction.
According to the Quran, if something has not been explicitly forbidden then it is allowed. If there is no proof that matam was forbidden, then it is allowed. In fact, we have evidence that matam at the loss of loved ones was the norm during the Prophet's time, and it continued to be the norm. This refutes the argument of matam being forbidden/bidah or any such nonsense.
Now, if you think that there is not enough support for matam, then its simple, DON'T DO IT. It is not compulsory, it is not a pillar of Islam, and nobody is forcing you to do it, but don't tell others who do it that it is forbidden because you would be lying. It should be the mourning of Imam Hussain that should lead you to do matam, not a religous injunction.
Re: Moharram
Again I must warn you, if you cannot refute my arguments, please do not resort to personal attacks. You are only lowering yourself.
Re: 1st hadith - the ayat is part of the hadith, you cannot twist the interpretation to suitsyou.
Re: "Bohras do not beat their face or tear their clothes. I say that is nit-picking." -- Okay maybe I should get Bohras to beat their faces to make you happy?
Re: hadith quoting Aisha is for your benefit, not mine. The article refutes the Sunni perspective using Sunni sources. Shia do not need Sunni sources.
Re: "I have yet to see a rteligious support for this so called 'Maatam'" -- the onus is on you to show it is forbidden and judging by what you have said so far, you are struggling very hard.
Re: 1st hadith - the ayat is part of the hadith, you cannot twist the interpretation to suitsyou.
Re: "Bohras do not beat their face or tear their clothes. I say that is nit-picking." -- Okay maybe I should get Bohras to beat their faces to make you happy?
Re: hadith quoting Aisha is for your benefit, not mine. The article refutes the Sunni perspective using Sunni sources. Shia do not need Sunni sources.
Re: "I have yet to see a rteligious support for this so called 'Maatam'" -- the onus is on you to show it is forbidden and judging by what you have said so far, you are struggling very hard.
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Sajid Zafar
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:01 am
Re: Moharram
You guys are completely out of track. It’s not worth arguing whether or not Islam permits to perform “Matam”. References quoted at Shia website, are kind of argument for sake of argument, it holds no substance.
The fact remains that for what reason it is performed for?
If it is performed for the purpose of remembering or commemorating nearer and dearer, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it unless it is not customized every now and than.
But if it is done for sake of getting “Swab” or “A Place in Haven” after death (that’s what Shias and we Bohra believe) than there is no room for it. How personal “Aamal” can be replaced with something else. For sake of argument if this logic is accepted than who will abide by the teaching of our religion. I have seen people at Mehfil-e-Shah-e-Khurasan (Shia Imam Bargah & mosque in Karachi, Pakistan) while working voluntarily for “Burhani Blood Bank” Shias performing Matam at “Shabe-Ashur” to write-off their sins. Does this make any sense?
The fact remains that for what reason it is performed for?
If it is performed for the purpose of remembering or commemorating nearer and dearer, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it unless it is not customized every now and than.
But if it is done for sake of getting “Swab” or “A Place in Haven” after death (that’s what Shias and we Bohra believe) than there is no room for it. How personal “Aamal” can be replaced with something else. For sake of argument if this logic is accepted than who will abide by the teaching of our religion. I have seen people at Mehfil-e-Shah-e-Khurasan (Shia Imam Bargah & mosque in Karachi, Pakistan) while working voluntarily for “Burhani Blood Bank” Shias performing Matam at “Shabe-Ashur” to write-off their sins. Does this make any sense?
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
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Br. Muslim
Check this out
Here is tafsir on 60.12
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=60&tid=53542
In the tafsir of this Ayah we also learn that when Prophet SAW took pledge rom women he did not touch them. (One more lesson that bohra women cannot do Kadam Bosi of Dai (Astaghfirulla) by touching him)
The Hadith stands on its own marit. It was just used here to explain a point under heading of "THE MATTERS WOMEN PLEDGE TO"
Wasalaam
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Br. Muslim
Check this out
Here is tafsir on 60.12
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=60&tid=53542
In the tafsir of this Ayah we also learn that when Prophet SAW took pledge rom women he did not touch them. (One more lesson that bohra women cannot do Kadam Bosi of Dai (Astaghfirulla) by touching him)
The Hadith stands on its own marit. It was just used here to explain a point under heading of "THE MATTERS WOMEN PLEDGE TO"
Wasalaam
.
Re: Moharram
> Regarding the various Hadith and narrations, nowhere it has been shown that the Prophet (PBUH) did matam. The fact that he did stop others cannot be interpreted as his approval.
Referring to the ahadith explicitly endorsing or forbidding this practice doesn't seem useful. It's worth noting that only the ahadith of Sunnis, who don't practice matam, include traditions forbidding it or suggesting that it is wrong. Shia traditions do not include any such ahadith. Here, it simply becomes a matter of whose stories you believe and whose philosophy you are more comfortable with.
Personally, I think matam as a practice and an institution is wasted if it is only an expression of grief. However, there is a great deal of depth to matam - it embues a very palpable and communal sense of emotional involvement to believers, and it invites reflection about sacrifice, bounty, and what it means to be a Muslim. It is a reminder to the believer of his commitment and his responsibility for daily struggle against whatever demons embattle his faith in the Way, and Husain becomes a symbol of this struggle and self-sacrifice. Remember that the Shia's seventh pillar of faith is Jihad itself.
My real objection to matam is the fact that I have seen it used to convert Husain into a catholicized Christ-figure, and all of the potential for meaning and reflection becomes lost by the wayside. Perhaps I do not give others enough credit, but it seems unconscionable to me that people are encouraged to fake tears during sermons and matam, because false sorrow is better than no sorrow, and if feigned long enough it is supposed to become real.
.....
salaam
Referring to the ahadith explicitly endorsing or forbidding this practice doesn't seem useful. It's worth noting that only the ahadith of Sunnis, who don't practice matam, include traditions forbidding it or suggesting that it is wrong. Shia traditions do not include any such ahadith. Here, it simply becomes a matter of whose stories you believe and whose philosophy you are more comfortable with.
Personally, I think matam as a practice and an institution is wasted if it is only an expression of grief. However, there is a great deal of depth to matam - it embues a very palpable and communal sense of emotional involvement to believers, and it invites reflection about sacrifice, bounty, and what it means to be a Muslim. It is a reminder to the believer of his commitment and his responsibility for daily struggle against whatever demons embattle his faith in the Way, and Husain becomes a symbol of this struggle and self-sacrifice. Remember that the Shia's seventh pillar of faith is Jihad itself.
My real objection to matam is the fact that I have seen it used to convert Husain into a catholicized Christ-figure, and all of the potential for meaning and reflection becomes lost by the wayside. Perhaps I do not give others enough credit, but it seems unconscionable to me that people are encouraged to fake tears during sermons and matam, because false sorrow is better than no sorrow, and if feigned long enough it is supposed to become real.
.....
salaam
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khan19922001
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Moharram
Dear All
So the conclusion is as follows:
a) as there is no explicit mention in the Quran forbidding matam, it may be said that doing it would not be a sin. ( This sounds very weak as it opens the door for all sorts of things which are not forbidden)
b) matam is not a Pillar of Faith, doing it will not take the person to heaven and not doing it will not mean hell.
c) matam is not the only way to show attachment to Ahle-Bayt. I think that obeying the commandments of God and his Prophet (PBUH) will make God more happy.
Any more comments.
I will start another topic on the sighting of the moon and would like everyone to participate.
Regards
So the conclusion is as follows:
a) as there is no explicit mention in the Quran forbidding matam, it may be said that doing it would not be a sin. ( This sounds very weak as it opens the door for all sorts of things which are not forbidden)
b) matam is not a Pillar of Faith, doing it will not take the person to heaven and not doing it will not mean hell.
c) matam is not the only way to show attachment to Ahle-Bayt. I think that obeying the commandments of God and his Prophet (PBUH) will make God more happy.
Any more comments.
I will start another topic on the sighting of the moon and would like everyone to participate.
Regards
Re: Moharram
Why do we do matam? Hussain’s death gave a victory to Islam. After his death there was a big revolution, so his scarifies did not went bad. He was the hero of Islam, but the thing that I am unable to understand is why do we cry for that?
Think if Imam Hussan would have defeated the kafirs, then Islam would not have got such a big victory as achieved after hussan sacrified his life. So isn’t it a day for joy? He was able to bring the revolution in kuffa and then in whole muslim world. Because of his death the people of kuffa revolted against yazid. So his death is symbol of joy and victory. His death brought down fall to yazid. His death brought awareness in the muslim world. His death brought courage in the muslim to fight against the bad.
Death and life is in the hands of God.
Do we cry on mahuram, because we lost our Imam. But did we really loose our imam? The Body was dead but Imam was with us. After his death Zainil Abidin was our Imam. So why do we cry?
Our relation with Imam is spiritual and not physical. And Imam never dies. The death comes to the body?
Please explain?
Think if Imam Hussan would have defeated the kafirs, then Islam would not have got such a big victory as achieved after hussan sacrified his life. So isn’t it a day for joy? He was able to bring the revolution in kuffa and then in whole muslim world. Because of his death the people of kuffa revolted against yazid. So his death is symbol of joy and victory. His death brought down fall to yazid. His death brought awareness in the muslim world. His death brought courage in the muslim to fight against the bad.
Death and life is in the hands of God.
Do we cry on mahuram, because we lost our Imam. But did we really loose our imam? The Body was dead but Imam was with us. After his death Zainil Abidin was our Imam. So why do we cry?
Our relation with Imam is spiritual and not physical. And Imam never dies. The death comes to the body?
Please explain?
Re: Moharram
Khan 199etc.
I appreciate the anonymity allowed by these discussion boards as it allows for a free exchange of ideas. The Wahabis and the Bohris and other extremists do not allow that.
However, misrepresenting one's views to get a rise out of others is obviously misleading at best. I am assuming that when I agree/disagree with you that you are not a Bohra and simply pretending to be one (why I don't know
), since I wouldn't want to be one anymore !
Just setting the record straight...and if I am wrong, salaams to the first Bohra named Khan !
I appreciate the anonymity allowed by these discussion boards as it allows for a free exchange of ideas. The Wahabis and the Bohris and other extremists do not allow that.
However, misrepresenting one's views to get a rise out of others is obviously misleading at best. I am assuming that when I agree/disagree with you that you are not a Bohra and simply pretending to be one (why I don't know
), since I wouldn't want to be one anymore !Just setting the record straight...and if I am wrong, salaams to the first Bohra named Khan !
Re: Moharram
hi
i just don't understand you all first you say that you are not against the dai and all your arguments leed to show that your main aim is to nullify whatever the dai says why this two faces hypocracy , if you cant follow what the dai says as he is your leader why dont you leave them alone and form your own sect where you dont have to do what the bohris do ,.
i just don't understand you all first you say that you are not against the dai and all your arguments leed to show that your main aim is to nullify whatever the dai says why this two faces hypocracy , if you cant follow what the dai says as he is your leader why dont you leave them alone and form your own sect where you dont have to do what the bohris do ,.
Re: Moharram
It is very simple.
If you think about it, these guys have a deep hatred of everything that is dawoodi bohra but they know they have nowhere to go, no identity, nothing if they totally get out...
They will end up like some of the other bohras sects out there (sulaimani, aliya bohras etc) who are roaming in the dark without a a true guide and I have come across some of them who are so deperate even for our books for guidance.
Some of the philosophy & theosophy behind it is that Man in a herd may not show the best side of his nature. Unconscious drives may reign his behaviour. This is applicable especially in circumstances that man strives for the spiritual. He may tend to show split-personality behaviour. On one hand the spiritual personality which is supposed to have come to terms with his animal nature. It is wise, friendly and compassionate on the outside. In the shadows lurks the personality that has been forced into the background, still ridden with all the expulsed human frailties. In moments of weakness it will see its chance to play hideous tricks. It will do so without being noticed by the person involved. The result being: uncharitable behaviour, envy, malicious gossip, hypocrisy, harsh words, insensitivity, unfounded criticism and even worse, not expected from such charismatic figure. It is one of the main reasons for people leaving a particular group in great disappointment.
If you think about it, these guys have a deep hatred of everything that is dawoodi bohra but they know they have nowhere to go, no identity, nothing if they totally get out...
They will end up like some of the other bohras sects out there (sulaimani, aliya bohras etc) who are roaming in the dark without a a true guide and I have come across some of them who are so deperate even for our books for guidance.
Some of the philosophy & theosophy behind it is that Man in a herd may not show the best side of his nature. Unconscious drives may reign his behaviour. This is applicable especially in circumstances that man strives for the spiritual. He may tend to show split-personality behaviour. On one hand the spiritual personality which is supposed to have come to terms with his animal nature. It is wise, friendly and compassionate on the outside. In the shadows lurks the personality that has been forced into the background, still ridden with all the expulsed human frailties. In moments of weakness it will see its chance to play hideous tricks. It will do so without being noticed by the person involved. The result being: uncharitable behaviour, envy, malicious gossip, hypocrisy, harsh words, insensitivity, unfounded criticism and even worse, not expected from such charismatic figure. It is one of the main reasons for people leaving a particular group in great disappointment.
Re: Moharram
Can any one please explain me?
Why do we do matam? Hussain’s death gave a victory to Islam. After his death there was a big revolution, so his scarifies did not went bad. He was the hero of Islam, but the thing that I am unable to understand is why do we cry for that?
Think if Imam Hussan would have defeated the kafirs, then Islam would not have got such a big victory as achieved after hussan sacrified his life. So isn’t it a day for joy? He was able to bring the revolution in kuffa and then in whole muslim world. Because of his death the people of kuffa revolted against yazid. So his death is symbol of joy and victory. His death brought down fall to yazid. His death brought awareness in the muslim world. His death brought courage in the muslim to fight against the bad.
Death and life is in the hands of God.
Do we cry on mahuram, because we lost our Imam. But did we really loose our imam? The Body was dead but Imam was with us. After his death Zainil Abidin was our Imam. So why do we cry?
Our relation with Imam is spiritual and not physical. And Imam never dies. The death comes to the body?
Please explain?
Why do we do matam? Hussain’s death gave a victory to Islam. After his death there was a big revolution, so his scarifies did not went bad. He was the hero of Islam, but the thing that I am unable to understand is why do we cry for that?
Think if Imam Hussan would have defeated the kafirs, then Islam would not have got such a big victory as achieved after hussan sacrified his life. So isn’t it a day for joy? He was able to bring the revolution in kuffa and then in whole muslim world. Because of his death the people of kuffa revolted against yazid. So his death is symbol of joy and victory. His death brought down fall to yazid. His death brought awareness in the muslim world. His death brought courage in the muslim to fight against the bad.
Death and life is in the hands of God.
Do we cry on mahuram, because we lost our Imam. But did we really loose our imam? The Body was dead but Imam was with us. After his death Zainil Abidin was our Imam. So why do we cry?
Our relation with Imam is spiritual and not physical. And Imam never dies. The death comes to the body?
Please explain?
Re: Moharram
SO AS I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS PEOPLE DONT GIVA A DAMN ABOUT ISLAM OR ANY OTHER RELIGION THEYARE JUST BOHRAS FOR THE SACK OF IT , AND TO BRING DISTURBANCES NOW AND THEN SO AS TO MAKE MATTERS DIFFICULT FOR BOHRAS WHO ARE NOT SO STRONG IN THIER BELIFS AND MAKE THEM DO THINGSWHICH AREAGAINST MORAL AND ETHICAL VALUES,.
Re: Moharram
EXACTLYOriginally posted by zahrela:
SO AS I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS PEOPLE DONT GIVA A DAMN ABOUT ISLAM OR ANY OTHER RELIGION THEYARE JUST BOHRAS FOR THE SACK OF IT , AND TO BRING DISTURBANCES NOW AND THEN SO AS TO MAKE MATTERS DIFFICULT FOR BOHRAS WHO ARE NOT SO STRONG IN THIER BELIFS AND MAKE THEM DO THINGSWHICH AREAGAINST MORAL AND ETHICAL VALUES,.
Re: Moharram
This message board is a travesty of proper debate. Citing the Sunnite canon does not strengthen your arguments; it is by definition opposed to unique Shiite rituals. If you must dispute Shiite mourning rituals then at least refer to the Shiite canon (al-Kulayni, al-Qummi and al-Tusi). It is a simple yet forgotten hermeneutic mistake; Muslim First, though I find you reprehensible, if it is your aim to debase the Shia then do yourself a favor and implement an immanent critique rather than a transcendent one. Do any of you read the texts in their original language? I doubt it, or you would be aware of the ambiguities. And as for those of you who seek guidance from this forum, shame on you! Not a single participant seems to be even vaguely aware of the intricacies of Islamic Studies. Reading an Eng. translation of the Koran, or for that matter the Arabic text, does not make you a scholar, in the secular or traditional sense. I visit this message board on occaison to get a sense of the voices of opposition, but all I ever read are platitudes, shmucks ranting about things they don't understand. Muslim First, you may be interested to read J. Schacht's work: you're precious hadith are fabrications, Schacht would say, written under governments which faced debilitating opposition from Shiite rebels. It's no wonder they are tendentious to say the least. The Sunnite canon was not even complete up until the 13th cent. (Ibn al-Salah did not include Ibn Majah's work in his Ulum al-Hadith, indicating that it was not yet admitted into the canon). You all need to get over your mullah aspirations!
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
Br.Shayba
AS
Instead clling me names plese show me where in Quran or where our prophet SAW has shown us to commomerate Muharram.?
You teach us now. If you make sense then I beat myself silly this Muharram.
Wasalaam
.
AS
Instead clling me names plese show me where in Quran or where our prophet SAW has shown us to commomerate Muharram.?
You teach us now. If you make sense then I beat myself silly this Muharram.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Moharram
Originally posted by Muslim First:
Br.Shayba
AS
Instead clling me names plese show me where in Quran or where our prophet SAW has shown us to commomerate Muharram.?
You teach us now. If you make sense then I beat myself silly this Muharram.
There are many examples..
But first you will have to denounce your first three fools that you believe in.
maybe then we can show you.
and anyways.. first read the whole quran.. Why should we show you where it is written(though it is).
You need to first denounce somethings before youe are initiated...
U cant just sit and ask and we tell you?
why should we..
just go to your wahabi websites and enjoy there..
why do you even bother coming to this website?
Wasalaam
.
Re: Moharram
There are many examples..all over the Quran.. starting form Adam Nabi to Moulana Ali AS.Originally posted by Muslim First:
Br.Shayba
AS
Instead clling me names plese show me where in Quran or where our prophet SAW has shown us to commomerate Muharram.?
You teach us now. If you make sense then I beat myself silly this Muharram.
Wasalaam
.
But first you will have to denounce your first three fools that you believe in.
maybe then we can show you.
and anyways.. first read the whole quran.. Why should we show you where it is written(though it is).
You need to first denounce somethings before you are initiated...
U cant just sit and ask and we tell you?
why should we..
just go to your wahabi websites and enjoy there..
why do you even bother coming to this website?
Re: Moharram
> Why should we show you where it is written(though it is).
It's a lucky thing the Prophet did not share your attitude, or likely far fewer of the unbelievers would have found Islam.
Speaking of reading the Qur'an, have you read the chapter which admonishes the Prophet for being angry with a man who approached him with a question about Islam?
salaam
It's a lucky thing the Prophet did not share your attitude, or likely far fewer of the unbelievers would have found Islam.
Speaking of reading the Qur'an, have you read the chapter which admonishes the Prophet for being angry with a man who approached him with a question about Islam?
salaam
Re: Moharram
Moharram and Ashra - It's a big feast for Burhanuddin and his mafia kothar - They run around all over the world to make the most money -Where is Burhanuddin going to be this year? How insane can a 93 year old person be? He is still meandering all over the world to make fat bucks in the name of Imam Hussain. I know that the fanatical Bohris are willing to scurry about the Earth this Mohrarram in search of Burhanuddin.
At every event whether it can be a birthday for the baby, wedding, death or daris Burhanuddin and his kotharis have imposed matam. This is absolutely wrong because matam should only be set aside for the month of Moharram (Like we use to do before the new imposed "fatwa"). By doing matam everyday Moharram has less significance. Also, the excessive matam has caused people to do matam as if they are relentlessly beating on their chests without any meaning. Bohri people just do it because they have to under the dictatorship of kothar and the watchful eyes of the community.
Burhanuddin and his chamchas have imposed matam for their materialistic interests. The scheme they have developed allows Burhanuddin or any mulla to not have to preach much and spend the majority of the time sitting on their "Ass" watching bohri flocks matam. I'm sure Burhanuddin and his agents get tickeled inside because they eagerly await the moment after the Bohri flock is exhausted and ready to dump cash into the kothar's greedy hands.
At every event whether it can be a birthday for the baby, wedding, death or daris Burhanuddin and his kotharis have imposed matam. This is absolutely wrong because matam should only be set aside for the month of Moharram (Like we use to do before the new imposed "fatwa"). By doing matam everyday Moharram has less significance. Also, the excessive matam has caused people to do matam as if they are relentlessly beating on their chests without any meaning. Bohri people just do it because they have to under the dictatorship of kothar and the watchful eyes of the community.
Burhanuddin and his chamchas have imposed matam for their materialistic interests. The scheme they have developed allows Burhanuddin or any mulla to not have to preach much and spend the majority of the time sitting on their "Ass" watching bohri flocks matam. I'm sure Burhanuddin and his agents get tickeled inside because they eagerly await the moment after the Bohri flock is exhausted and ready to dump cash into the kothar's greedy hands.
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
.
Br.Mumin110, AS
Your comment: " and anyways.. first read the whole quran.. Why should we show you where it is written(though it is). "
I have read Quran with various translatios and found nothing to support commomeration of Muharram.
It is a cop-out to say why should we show you.
Rightous people are never afraid of sharing their knowledge of their religious beliefs.
Wasalaam
.
Br.Mumin110, AS
Your comment: " and anyways.. first read the whole quran.. Why should we show you where it is written(though it is). "
I have read Quran with various translatios and found nothing to support commomeration of Muharram.
It is a cop-out to say why should we show you.
Rightous people are never afraid of sharing their knowledge of their religious beliefs.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Moharram
readOriginally posted by Muslim First:
.
Br.Mumin110, AS
Your comment: " and anyways.. first read the whole quran.. Why should we show you where it is written(though it is). "
I have read Quran with various translatios and found nothing to support commomeration of Muharram.
It is a cop-out to say why should we show you.
Rightous people are never afraid of sharing their knowledge of their religious beliefs.
Wasalaam
.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/8540/eid.html
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
.
Br.Mumin110, AS
Are you smoking something?
I asked you about Muharram mentioned in Quran or Sunnah of the Prophet and you are showing me link about Qurbani.
My challange about Muharram still stands?
Wasalaam
.
Br.Mumin110, AS
Are you smoking something?
I asked you about Muharram mentioned in Quran or Sunnah of the Prophet and you are showing me link about Qurbani.
My challange about Muharram still stands?
Wasalaam
.