sex and religions

[seeker110]

Why is it that almost all religions will make out sex as a way to procreate.It implies as if we only do it to have children.But the real truth of the matter is its pleasurable. Just like fine food. Yet religion never brings this aspect to us.Most religious leaders including ours had many many wives,and the reason given is everything in the book except the one true reason.Why is that , why not give the truth a chance.

[Al Zulfiqar]

i am not sufficiently qualified to discuss this, but this much i do know that the quran guarantees and even enjoins it as a sacred duty for a woman to derive sexual pleasure from her marriage and for her husband to provide it for her. that is why a woman who does not get that satisfaction on a regular basis from her husband, i.e.if he cannot perform or refuses it to her as a punishment or to mentally torture her, she is allowed to seek divorce from him.

i dont think that anything can be more expiicit than this. all religions do not endorse sex for purely pleasurable purposes, as that would lead to immorality and licentiousness, with accompanying evil consequences of diseases, illegitimate children, break up of society, disrespect for partners, parents, incest and so on..

as for the multiple marriages from the past, a lot is attributed to higher mortality rates, forming tribal alliances and the dangers of celibacy. in the prophets case, it was a very noble form of charity and sense of duty as he married several widows and women much older than him. to attribute everything to a unsatiable greed for sex, would be uncharitable and wrong.

perhaps there are others who are better quaaified to comment on this?

[Aarif]

Seeker,

My 2 cents..

The basic outcome of sex is a new life which is important for the continuation of mankind or any other specie. Hence, procreation is considered as the primary purpose for indulging in sex. Just like the primary purpose of food is to provide nourishment to the body. However, you can definitely enjoy food for the sake of it. But again one should only eat as much as required by the body. Overeating has its own health disadvantages and so does sex just for enjoyment. Because people having sex just for enjoyment tend to get into multiple sex partners to derive more pleasure and as result, many a times they end up crossing safety limits and exposing themselves to deases like STD, AIDS etc. Thus one can definitely enjoy sex the way one can eat to satisfy one's taste buds, but the primary purpose of both of them is not just enjoyment and something much more than that. I think that is what the religions try to preach and again no one is stoping you from having fun with your wife. So goahead and enjoy

[jawanmardan]

Interesting fact, I was told by a representative of Agent Provocateur the lingerie brand which is both racier than Victoria's secret, and upscale, that their Middle East stores are amongst their best selling.

Dubai ranks number one in their global sales. Outdoing NYC, Paris and London. The best selling item is the bejeweled whip, which probably says a lot about whose in charge in the bedroom over there.

[seeker110]

Br. A Z You are mixing regular sex with haram sex.Thats the thing religion always talks about.But why......
When I was ready to get married all I was interested was sex and not all the BS about making children etc etc. I don't know anyone who was thinking of the consequences of sex at that age.All we wanted was the best in looks,brain and other stuff was secondary.
Why would Catholics have rhythm method ,nobody ever preached that condoms are haram. So when I get my promised hoors ,what should I be thinking about?
As far as religious leaders keeping more wives......bewa and yateem khana comes to mind.Remember young women become bewa also.So when somebody marries a bewa lady he goes along with eyes closed.Probably not.
We need to see realty with open mind.

[Al Zulfiqar]

it might be best to curtail this thread here before it gets out of hand and too explicit, considering that this is a public site.

[Aarif]

Seeker,

Now you are changing goal posts. Now you are saying that one marries only to have sex. That's BS... If that would be the case everybody in this world would have married. Atleast I don't believe that one only marries only for sex. In short you cannot generalize.. People marry for different reasons. The most important is to have a family life and companionship. Your wife is your best companion. Prophet (pbuh) married a woman much elder to him in age and remained loyal to her till she died... There are many such examples in history and common life...

PS: Do not insult your wife by saying that you only married her for sex... And as AZ has mentioned it is time to stop this BS...

[seeker110]

Another big lie is food is for nourishment,Some muslims need four for companionship.Reality out the window.
I always hear the dalil our Nabi married an elder woman,never the word richest in the same sentence though.No physical attraction.
Without food there will be starvation and__ pain.More emphasis on pain,nourishment is secondary.
Funny how the rich and successful people always desire the companionship of ugly old ladies.
Some facts are hard to deal with in light of religion.So lets not bring those out.

[Humsafar]

Actually, sex and religion don't mix. Sex is not a big deal but religion makes it so by confining it to marriage and wrapping it in arbitrary conservative morality, and declaring it as a sin if it occurs outside the prescribed boundaries. Both religion and marriage are human constructs and as such diminish spirituality and sexuality respectively. In an ideal and "natural" world sex between two consenting adults would be fine so long as they are ready to accept and share its consequences. But humans are a flawed species, they need some rules around sexual behaviour. Marriage is the only viable arrangement we have come up with so far, and it is in my my view a tragically flawed arrangement. Divorces, unhappy marriages, extra-marital affairs, broken homes speak to its failure. Confining two people in a lifelong bondage is the most unnatural thing to do. Nature never intended humans to live like this. There's nothing holy about matrimony. Actually, Islam has a practical approach to marriage as it considers it as a contract, but the terms of the contract itself are dictated by conservative morality - giving rise to all the prudery, perversity and hypocrisy that surrounds it.

Sex, viewed on it own, is a beautiful thing. It's a coming together of the male and female principles - of yin and yang - to make a complete whole out of incomplete individuals. It can be spiritual in that sense, and there is something called tantrik sex which aims to achieve awakening through orgasm. Interesting possibilities there. Who says it is just meant for procreation.

Another thing, our culture has brainwashed us into considering sex as a taboo, something that is tainted and sinful, only to be talked in hushed tones and behind closed doors. No wonder there are already voices here warning us that this tread might get out of hand.

[Danish]

Great post Humsafar. I was about to convey my views on this topic but you summed it very well.

[jawanmardan]

Humsafar;

Actually, sex and religion don't mix.

I believe they do mix, but not always very well. Each human culture and its contingent religious system has had out of necessity to come to some kind of terms with sex, as we should also not forget to include gender in this discussion; particularly the role and perception of women, and gender.

As such I am not inclined to agree with you position that;

Sex is not a big deal

Perhaps it shouldn't be, but it is, it has a percussive droning effect on politics, the state, and ultimately power. There is no escaping that.

Another thing, our culture has brainwashed us into considering sex as a taboo

I believe a great part of that is due to the legacy of Victorian morality which pervades not just the Islamic world; look at India land of sensuous temple sculptures, and miniatures,and the Karma Sutra; a place where public affection (a kiss) resulted in arrest just last year. The same effect can be seen in Korea, and even Japan.

Actually, Islam has a practical approach to marriage as it considers it as a contract

Agreed, and while you point to problems in that contract, it remains a contract which offers the opportunity of amendment and there are signs of tentative steps in that direction. We should also not underestimate human genius in coming up with ways to find practical solutions within their cultural foundations.

Let us not forget the countless scholars, and philosophers of Islamic civilization who have discussed sex, and sexuality historically and the legacy they offer us to build upon. While I had my tongue firmly clasped in cheek during my previous post regarding lingerie; it makes an important point regarding sterio-typing women in the Islamic world and Islam. And I agree a more open discussion about sex and Islam is sorely needed in amongst muslims.

Personally I am nether inclined to a utilitarian approach to sex, nor the epicurean. And I don't believe Islam is necessarily bound to either.

[Aarif]

Another big lie is food is for nourishment,Some muslims need four for companionship.Reality out the window.

As I mentioned the primary purpose of food is to provide nourishment to a body which keeps it going. I don't understand what is a lie in that. You can verify this fact by not eating for ten days in a row. I am sure we will miss you on this board.

Secondly people who marry four woman do not marry them for companionship. It is for physical variety.. For companionship one wife is enough and those seeking four are actually sex-seekers. In today's world this concept of four is greatly diminishing even in the muslim world as with limited resources it is difficult for most people to provide for four wives...

[Danish]

Sex is not a big deal

Perhaps it shouldn't be, but it is, it has a percussive droning effect on politics, the state, and ultimately power. There is no escaping that.

I certainly agree with you on this note and as well as Zulfiqar's: "that would lead to immorality and licentiousness, with accompanying evil consequences of diseases, illegitimate children, break up of society, disrespect for partners, parents, incest and so on.." I'm not sure what Humsafar actually meant by "Sex is not a big deal", perhaps he can clarify. I believe sex may not be a big deal if practised in any manner justified between consenting partners without the need of procreation or religious damnations.

[seeker110]

Tareef us khuda ki jees ne tujeh banaya.
I am here because of it.Yet its a big no no to raise the subject.
Why does religion makes us believe it should never come out of the dark closet.
Because of it I have children.Because of it I have a friend for life.Without it the marriage is not complete.
Allah will reward us with it.It binds souls,it is the best gift Allah gave us.All we can think of is broken homes,broken lives and diseases.Fabe aye alahai rabaeka.......

[Average Bohra]

Do not insult your wife by saying that you only married her for sex... And as AZ has mentioned it is time to stop this BS...

Do not insult your wife by saying that you only married her to make babies either. There is no "BS" in this topic.

Humsafar is spot-on with his comments. Only thing I would add is that pleasure is the one thing that cannot be controlled by organized religion; they have made rules around it or attempted to control actions that lead to it, but they cannot control the feeling itself. Therefore the subject is generally taboo when it relates to sex.

[jayanti]

I thought even ladies and kids come to this forums.what they think?
Admin you need to stop this topic. what kind of public forums is this no respect for any one.

[danishwar]

Sex is not a big deal

yes,after reaching a certain age level.Its like childhood plays we all enjoyed and still can remember but forget the taste.
These are changing colours of life ,one definitely needs to live with joy and happiness and avoid boredom.

How beautiful arrangements made by our Creature for our different stages of life.

[Anwar]

its always fasinating talking about sex, but does it fit this forum ??
Admin please take a note

[Muslim First]

The Seasons of Love
Spring and Summer
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... FFYELayout

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... ectionList

Husbands & Wives: Addiction . Communication . Divorce & After . Sexuality . Arranged Marriage . Dealing with the Past . Economics . Fertility . Love & Intimacy . Virtual Relations . Bereavement . Domestic Abuse . Extramarital Affairs . Interfaith Marriage . Second Wife . Well-Being

Links here
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... FYESection

[jawanmardan]

May I recommend Dr. Layla Ahmeds "Women and Gender in Islam", it tells how the first women in Islam enjoyed great rights (not necessarily unprecedented at least in Arabia) but also how those rights; fighting within the Muslim militia, fight duels for their honor against men, and how the first Abbasid Queen much to her husbands ire restricted his promiscuous desires with her own contract. And the rapid decline that in-sued within a generation.

Definitely worth a read.

[Aarif]

Do not insult your wife by saying that you only married her to make babies either. There is no "BS" in this topic.

Average,

I am unmarried and hence your comments do not apply to me. Anyways, you failed to understand the crux of what I said. According to me you do not marry just for sex. Marraige is an institution and it is much more than sex. A wife can be an advisor, companion and much more than a sex partner... That is what one can learn from the marriage of prophet (pbuh) who used to consult his wife hazrat Khadija before taking any important decision of his life... In fact the first person whom he discussed his enlightenment was hazrat Khadija...

Humsafar is spot-on with his comments.

According to Humsafar sex is no big deal. People who think that way end up sleeping around with everyone and one day wake up with AIDS or STD... Yes sex is a beautiful feeling provided it is done within the boundaries made by religion and society. Actually religion and society are the only two things that differentiates a man from animal... For animals and average farts like you sex is no big deal. Its just like farting.

[Al Zulfiqar]

all religions mention sex within the confines of a lawful marriage and also explicitly mention the pleasures derived from it. i need not go into elaborate details to outline this. in fact, indian culture, as defined by hindu religion and its epics, vedas and puranas, all go into exquisite details on this subject. witness the khajuraho temples in all their glory or the treatises on "Marital sex" written by muni's and rishi's.

it is precisely because of these pleasures that they also exhort mankind to indulge freely and in merry abandon but within the confines of that which is tolerable in a civilised society, or chaos could result.

food is for nourishment, sex is for procreation, clothes are for protection and modesty, voice is for expression and so on. all these are functions designed for our survival. but if there was no pleasure attached to it, would any human being bother? it is the intrinsic nature of all mankind to be lazy, they will only undertake certain pursuits if they see its benefits, if they dont also enjoy it, they will prefer death.

to then emphasise only the pleasure aspect over the utilitarian aspect is being disingenous and a little satanic. the adverse effects of any over-indulgence of food, sex, spending on clothes and other necessities is all around you. obesity, diseases, a break up of society and civilised values, etc etc will and are already resulting.

to blame religion for being a spoilsport is like trying to seek divine license for any excesses you want to commit. if you have human urges like we all do and cannot restrain yrself, pls go ahead. do not involve any religion in it. today's society, esp. out in the west, grants you all these freedoms, only the consequences arising from it will be yours and yours alone. now that there almost foolproof birth control methods, the dangers of unwanted kids has been drastically reduced and thus the greater freedom to have sex with multiple partners, within or outside of a marriage. this is already leading to the erosion of the institution of marriage or is leading to some extensions of its definitions. same-sex marriages, common-law relationships, swinging, partner swaps, group marriages... societies will dictate what is no longer sacred or inviolable.

seeker, what u say may have much truth to it. in fact throughout history, all people with power and money have bent the rules to their own convenience. most rulers, noblemen and emperors of the past maintained harems, mistresses and hundreds of wives. and some thinkers have even advocated that only from total sexual satisfaction comes the power to liberate the human mind, a la bhagwan shree rajneesh.(sambhogh se samadhi tak). but if you take this to its logical conclusion, do you think that mankind would have survived uptil today? would we have had the refinement of a civilised society which we observe now? and with all the modern tools at our disposal, can we now afford to lift all these religious and so-called silly restrictions of society?

what would you recommend? to suggest restraint does not make anyone automatically a narrow-minded prude and a bigot, neither would suggesting that sex is a great pleasure and a human right to be indulged in freely make someone very modern and liberated.