The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby Aarif on Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:12 pm

O,

To start with you can read wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr#cite_ref-29

One non-muslim historian Wilford Madelung who is qouted in wikipedia, writes the following about him based on his study of Islamic history:

Madelung portrays Abu Bakr as a political opportunist whose character as the founder of Sunni Islam has been extensively embellished by subsequent kings and emperors (caliphs) making it difficult to openly criticise him



I will try to find other links that I have read in past stating something like this...
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby ozmujaheed on Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:28 pm

M....Diamul Islam is not a widely accepted book of historical reference recognised by non-Bohras. Your respect for the author is from a point of faith rather than public or wider acedemic consensus. Sorry but one cannot brand Abubakr as dis-respectful to the Prophet on the basis of 1 text written many years after the death of of the Prophet SAW.

A...Wiki is not a credible source of facts ..wiki is open for editing and can be influenced by anyone whop has access to it.

I am looking at a source of history ratified by the great Ulema, Historians or the reliable Islamic Univesities...without that we should give Abubakr the benfit of our dobt and stop cursing him and atleast leave his name alone and stop blaming him for the events in Karbala...which at the same time I do not mean Shias have to love him.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby S. Insaf on Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:44 pm

The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala – Part IV
What actually happened during first 10 days of Moharram on the soil of Nenawa and on the battlefield of Karbala and on the road from Kufa to Damascus, was gathered and compiled by Abi Mikhnaf in the second century of Hijra ie after about 150 years, and other historians in fourth century, from the account given by the survivals and onlookers of the tragedy, what they saw and what they could remember and narrate.
Orders of Ubaidullah bin Ziyad and Umar bin Saad, discussions between the army chiefs of Yazid and Imam Husain and his companions, the addresses to the people by different martyrs and Imam Husain, the bravery of members of Imam Husain’s camp on the battle field, how they suffered and how and who killed them, the dialogue between Imam Husain and Shimr are all based on the memory of the eyewitnesses and hearsay.
The heads of the martyrs were cut off, their bodies were crush and they were buried by a tribe Banu Asad and that too when the army of Umar bin Saad had left Kufa. The calculation of wounds on the bodies of each martyr thus can not be verified.

Even there is a dispute about the exact age of martyrs – for example popularly the age of Ali Akber is described as 18 years but when calculated from his birth date the actual age comes to 28 years. Zainul Abideen then of 23 years and he is the one known as Ali Asghar. The child of Rabab who is commonly believed as 6 month old is said to be 6 years and 3 month old when died in Karbala.

There is also contradiction of name of Ali Asghar. It is believed that that the person whom we know as Ali Zainul Abedeen or Sajjad was actually Ali Asghar.

Friends! I admit that these differences do not, in any way, belittle the significance of tragedy of Karbala.
What I want to point out is that once the purpose of this tragedy became to love Ahle-bayt more and more and grieve and cry more and more, each writer and orator adds his own fabrication, each writer, orator and poet loosely base his compositions upon the traditionally known history of the events and dramatize them in order to make the people cry more.

The psychological, social, ideological and political situations also had its impact on the history. Zainul-Abideen was an eyewitness of what had actually happened in Mecca and Medina, during the journey from Medina to Kufa and in Kufa in and out side the Husain’s camp, but after witnessing the horrible massacre and destruction he realized that the psychological and political situation was not in favour of Ahle-Byte so he chose to remain silent; while ladies of Ahle bait, Zainab and Umme Kulsoom went ahead exposing ugly and tyrannical policies of Umayyads. He was the only youth who escaped death in Karbala. Also after their victory in Karbala the Umayyads’ wave of terror had reached to its climax. So obliviously Zainul-Abideen did not take part in any rebellion against Umayyads.

But his son and brother of Imam Baqir, Zaid al-Shahid headed an open revolt against the Umayyads in 740, though he was killed and his body was kept hanging on a cross for four years.
That revolt gave birth to one more sect in Islam known as Zaidi Shia sect. As political situation demanded the Zaidis decided not to curse the first three Caliphs of Islam. Also because of Zaid’s failed revolt in Zaidi doctrine the Imam is not considered “infallible” and Imam is neither hereditary nor dependent on “Nass”. Any descendant of Ahle byte can claim the Imamat. Thus the concept of hidden Imam is also ruled out.

Whereas his brother Mohammad Baqir adopted a different strategy. He married the grand daughter of Abu Bakar, Umme Farwa and had two sons from her, Jafar (Imam Jafar Al-sadiq) and Abullah.

Thus we find that even Imams had to carry on their mission of Spiritual and Cultural Revolution under certain objective conditions on their side.

In the recent history we see that during Imam Ayatullah Khumeni’s rule in Iran he waged a war against Iraq perhaps not realizing that Iran also has about 50 percent Sunni population and he was antagonizing them. The Salman Rishdi’s book "Satanic Verses" came at his rescue which is believed to have ridiculed the holy Prophet and he declared fatwa against Rishdi in order to please his Sunni section. (This is entirely my understanding of the then political situation. So it is up to the readers to accept or reject it outright. But please no discussion on Iraq Iran relations.)
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby Aarif on Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:32 pm

I am looking at a source of history ratified by the great Ulema, Historians or the reliable Islamic Univesities...without that we should give Abubakr the benfit of our dobt and stop cursing him and atleast leave his name alone and stop blaming him for the events in Karbala...which at the same time I do not mean Shias have to love him.


O,

Now you are not making any sense... The name that I mentioned is a western historian "Wilford Madelung ". He is a known scholar of Islam. The reference in Wikipedia is from his book. And what makes you think that anything ratified by Ulemmas or Islamic universities is history and actually happened? No one knows what actually happened 1400 years ago. NO SCHOLAR OR HISTORIAN OR ULEMA can tell with confidence what happened in reality. I am very much against sending laanat to anyone. In NONE OF MY POSTS I HAVE CURSED any of the three khalifas or said there is any relation between them and happenings of Karbala. I was actually replying to other people's posts by stating that its all speculation from both the sides and no one can tell with 100% surety what transpired in that era... In short we should stop discussing these topics again and again and spreading hatred on this forum. Reread my complete first post in this thread instead of picking up 1-2 statements to win petty argument...
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby ozmujaheed on Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:52 pm

A..there is nothing petty in the Sunni Shia debate..the Shia Sunni hatred has caused many deaths in Islam and has caused immense sufferrings watch the media and see what is happening around Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen and Pakistan..if Shia ideology wants to demonstrate authenticity then we have to rid ourselves of false fundamentals especially Bohras priests who say Lannat at every opportunity , especially when we know this will cause hurt to our Sunni brethren.Again this is not to say we accept Sunni ideology but let us be tolerant and respectful of their ideology.

The reason of bringing this up now in this thread is to point out as others have that Sunni's had less of the cause of Karabala and was violent political dispute that unfortunately caused a major rift in Islam to this day as the followers took sides and created assumptions and speculations.

Karbala was a tragedy and the suspects should be criticised but not their religious leaning whether it be Shia or Sunni..which is similar to what current non-Muslims are perceiving all Muslims to be part of a violent religion, because a small minority of extremists actions...I do not need to elaborate ! Shias, Basra and Kharajites betrayed Ali and his family so why don't we blame them equally and say lanat on them.

However there are many modern day Sunni and Shia who recognise probable faults in history and are changes their view point. It takes high leadership and values to be able to cleanse ourselves of inaccurate history and issues that more divides us ! While Bohras debate the involvement of the Califs and waste Muharam majlis on 1400 year old events...Iranians youth on the streets are fighting oppressors who continue opressing in the name of Islam.
Bohras similarly have issues where Kothar continues to misuse religion to justify their agendas and this is our modern day Karbala and defence of freedom and democracy.

A yes let us stop this debate and the PDB needs to make a formal stand that we do not condone criticising the Sunni Khalifa as conspirators in events that led to death in our Ahlul Bayt even though we are very sorrowful of the loss in Kufa, Medina and Karbala and it is unfortunate the orthodox Bohras continue but InshAllah over time we will convince many to stop saying this as it does not benefit Shia beleifs , missionary work or wellbeing!
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby Haggi on Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:46 pm

ozmujaheed,
As much as I'm critical of recent trends in Bohoraism, I would like to inform you that I have not heard any Laanats on the 3 shahabaas whenever I have participitated during Muharram
for the last 12 years. It does not make sense why you keep on bringing this subject. Burhannudin has learnt his lesson and this is not practised any more, at least not in public and not in vaez.
You can verify this from anybody who attend the mainstream Jaamat on this forum.
I do not agree with most of the orthrodoxy and their practises and am a non participant, but whenever I have gone there, I have yet to hear any Laanats on the firsts 3 shahabas or Aisha.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby Al Zulfiqar on Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:03 am

Haggi wrote:ozmujaheed,
As much as I'm critical of recent trends in Bohoraism, I would like to inform you that I have not heard any Laanats on the 3 shahabaas whenever I have participitated during Muharram
for the last 12 years. It does not make sense why you keep on bringing this subject. Burhannudin has learnt his lesson and this is not practised any more, at least not in public and not in vaez.
You can verify this from anybody who attend the mainstream Jaamat on this forum.
I do not agree with most of the orthrodoxy and their practises and am a non participant, but whenever I have gone there, I have yet to hear any Laanats on the firsts 3 shahabas or Aisha.


haggi,

perhaps you have been taken in by these wily banias...! the cowards that they are, they now refer to the first 3 khalifas in code language as awwal, sani and saalis.

your statement that "Burhannudin has learnt his lesson", implies that he makes mistakes and should correct himself. that flies in the face of present bohra ideology that he is infallible and dai of allah etc etc, and will make you a marked man.

whereas in public they have stopped uttering curses, now they do it in private in sabaks and taweel. if you wish to hear them give wholesale laanats, you should join up for these secret sessions.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby Biradar on Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:49 pm

ozmujaheed wrote:M....Diamul Islam is not a widely accepted book of historical reference recognised by non-Bohras. Your respect for the author is from a point of faith rather than public or wider acedemic consensus. Sorry but one cannot brand Abubakr as dis-respectful to the Prophet on the basis of 1 text written many years after the death of of the Prophet SAW.


It does not matter what non-Bohras think of Daim al-Islam. This book was written by S. Qazi Noman under the direct supervision of Imam Moiz. Hence, as far as the Bohras are concerned there can not be anything more authentic as every paragraph, according to the author himself, was examined and approved by the Imam himself. Also, it is not clear that traditional historians have the correct history. For example, until very recently, Ismaili history was highly distorted by its enemies. Notice the extreme hatred by the Sunnis on this board for Bohras and Shias in general. The lack of proper historical narrative was corrected only in the last 100 years when manuscripts from libraries became available. So it is completely possible that the account in Daim al-Islam is the correct one.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby anajmi on Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:18 pm

Red Alert Red Alert. Admin, Shia Sunni angle coming in. Please delete the above post. Red Alert Red Alert
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby anajmi on Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:02 pm

Did you know that according to Daim-ul-Islam there has to be a gap of 2 hours between the zuhr and asr prayers?
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby Muslim First on Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:12 pm

And how about Magrib & Ishaa?
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby anajmi on Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:32 pm

I am not sure about maghrib and Ishaa.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby mmv on Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:53 am

anajmi wrote:Did you know that according to Daim-ul-Islam there has to be a gap of 2 hours between the zuhr and asr prayers?

anajmi
From which page and line of daim-ul Islam???

In the 3rd paragraph in page no :173 in Daim-ul Islam ( in Hindi)
there is no 2 hours mentioned.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby mmv on Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:14 am

mmv wrote:
anajmi wrote:Did you know that according to Daim-ul-Islam there has to be a gap of 2 hours between the zuhr and asr prayers?

anajmi
From which page and line of daim-ul Islam???

In the 3rd paragraph in page no :173 in Daim-ul Islam ( in Hindi)
there is no 2 hours mentioned.


Kindly read
page No: 161
173 is pdf page No list
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby Muslim First on Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:33 am

MMV

AS

Prayers in Qur'an are discussed extensively here.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3125&hilit=prayers
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby anajmi on Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:19 pm

mmv,

I am referring to the english translation by Ismail Kurban Husein Poonawala.

As per the translator, this particular paragraph has been omitted in the Urdu translation. I am not sure about the hindi one.

"The rule of action, however, based on what was witnessed by the people and according to the calls to prayer whereof the Imams were apprised, is that the call for the asr should be given at the beginning of the ninth hour [after sunrise], and this is two complete hours after midday. This closely resembles the prayer of Abu Jafar Muhammad b Ali [Imam al Baqir] reported by us and the dictum of Jafar b. Muhammad [Imam al Sadiq]. He, who offers his zuhr prayer in a leisurely fashion - the compulsory, the sunna, and the supererogatory prayers - and prays in the proper manner, would not take less than two hours of the day [to perform them].

For maghrib and Isha, this is what Daimul Islam says.

"[Imam al Sadiq] related from the messenger of God, who said 'When the night approaches from here' - and he pointed with his hand to the east '[the time for the maghrib has come]."

"Jafar b. Muhammad: He said that the time for the isha prayer commences when the shafaq (twilight) dissappears. Now shafaq means the ruddy glow, which subsists after sunset on the western horizon. The time for isha prayer ends with midnight."

Can anyone throw some light on how long this ruddy glow lasts after sunset?
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby anajmi on Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:34 pm

Here is something else in the Daim-ul-Islam which bohras should take a note of. I have pointed it out before on this board.

About the Imam.

Daaimul Islam The book of Walaya page 59

They are not, as has been asserted by the misguided fabricators of lies, deities and gods with no higher authority above them, nor are they prophets sent by God. No revelation comes to them, as was the case with the Prophets. They have no knowledge of the invisible (ghayb), which God kept imperceptible to his creation.

Anyone who claims that the Dai has knowledge of the ghayb (ghayb na jaankar) is either a liar (fabricator) or ignorant.

Bohras might consider Daim-ul-Islam authentic but they have no clue what it says. It might be wise on the part of the progressives to try and create more awareness about it.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby anajmi on Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:39 pm

mmv,

The portion about zuhr and asr is from the book of ritual prayers under the section - The Times of Prayer on page 172, 173 of the english translation.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby porus on Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:17 pm

anajmi wrote:Did you know that according to Daim-ul-Islam there has to be a gap of 2 hours between the zuhr and asr prayers?


I will make two points.

1. What has this to do with Karbala? Why has anajmi sought to introduce it here? The answer is that he intends to continue his fitna by misquoting Daim-ul-Islam.

2. The above quote from anajmi would lead a Bohra, who has not read the Daim, to conclude that the Daim commands that there must be a 2 hour gap between zuhr and asr. Let me correct that impression.

After relating that Imam Baqir offered zuhr and asr without much gap, the Daim goes on to say that the Imams were informed of the Sunni practice of offering the two prayers with the 2 hour gap. (Remember Sunnis were in the majority in Egypt during the Fatimid rule). Imam Jafar al-Sadiq states that 'that too is correct'. He quotes an example of Imam Baqir taking up to two hours fulfilling both the obligatory and the optional prayers, and states that anyone offering prayers in a similar fashion may likely take up to 2 hours. This is the correct reading of the Daim. It certainly not state an obligation to have a gap of 2 hours between the two prayers
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby anajmi on Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:04 pm

What porus forgets to mention is that it is also stated that the adhan for asr has to be called atleast 2 hours after midday. What he also forgets is to answer is the question about how long the ruddy glow lasts after sunset.

He also forgets to mention the bohra belief about the Dai being "ghayb naa jaankar" which is against the teachings of Daim-ul-Islam.

So, the reason I brought this up over here is simply to show bohra ignorance about Daim-ul-Islam even though they claim it to be the most authentic book and that too from the Imam, their beliefs are the opposite of its teachings.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby anajmi on Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:21 pm

Which brings us to the second point I was going to make and that is that bohra beliefs about Karbala and Karbala itself are two completely different things.

By the way, I would like to ask Aarif what Wilford Madelung and Wikipedia have to do with Karbala?
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby ghulam muhammed on Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:42 pm

Let us accept the fact that almost 95% of bohras have not read Daimul Islam and more then 50% are unaware of any book by the name Daimul Islam. This is what I gathered with my close interactions with fellow bohras.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby porus on Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:32 pm

anajmi wrote:What porus forgets to mention is that it is also stated that the adhan for asr has to be called atleast 2 hours after midday.


I answered the falsehood, about the 2 hours gap between zuhr and asr, in the earlier post. It is not a command but an observation of the Sunni practice of which the Imams were apprised. Yet anajmi repeats it.

Let me remind you what the Chief Nazi propagandist, Joseph Goebbels, said about lies. He said that “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it".

anajmi wrote:Which brings us to the second point I was going to make and that is that bohra beliefs about Karbala and Karbala itself are two completely different things.


Of course, an admirer of Yazid is bound to have his own version of the history of Karbala. We need not hold our breath for his particular brand of new revelations.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby anajmi on Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:10 pm

Joseph Goebbels


Damn. You beat me to him. I was going to say the exact same thing for you. Anyway, what you have provided, is an interpretation, a taawil, so to say. The text itself is pretty clear. Let me repeat the text of the translation of Daim. Not my interpretation, the text itself

"The rule of action, however, based on what was witnessed by the people and according to the calls to prayer whereof the Imams were apprised, is that the call for the asr should be given at the beginning of the ninth hour [after sunrise], and this is two complete hours after midday. This closely resembles the prayer of Abu Jafar Muhammad b Ali [Imam al Baqir] reported by us and the dictum of Jafar b. Muhammad [Imam al Sadiq]. He, who offers his zuhr prayer in a leisurely fashion - the compulsory, the sunna, and the supererogatory prayers - and prays in the proper manner, would not take less than two hours of the day [to perform them].

The 2 hour gap closely resembles the prayer of Abu Jafar Muhammad [Imam al Baqir] and the dictum of Jafar b. Muhammad [Imam al Sadiq]. Case closed.

admirer of Yazid


Here, porus is representing his Nazi friend Joseph Goebbels.

Let me explain, what I had said earlier about Karbala and bohra beliefs about Karbala in porus' own words.

Bohras believe that during Karbala, Imam Hussain had a choice, either to get the help of angels to fight Yazid or to sacrifice himself and his family. I raised this issue a long time back in the thread "Pillars of Islam".

This is what porus had to say.

A Shia myth adopted as truth by a Wahhabi! How charming!


A lot of what bohra's consider as Karbala is myth.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby porus on Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:15 pm

anajmi wrote:"The rule of action, however, based on what was witnessed by the people and according to the calls to prayer whereof the Imams were apprised, is that the call for the asr should be given at the beginning of the ninth hour [after sunrise], and this is two complete hours after midday. This closely resembles the prayer of Abu Jafar Muhammad b Ali [Imam al Baqir] reported by us and the dictum of Jafar b. Muhammad [Imam al Sadiq]. He, who offers his zuhr prayer in a leisurely fashion - the compulsory, the sunna, and the supererogatory prayers - and prays in the proper manner, would not take less than two hours of the day [to perform them].

The 2 hour gap closely resembles the prayer of Abu Jafar Muhammad [Imam al Baqir] and the dictum of Jafar b. Muhammad [Imam al Sadiq]. Case closed.


Before the above paragraph in the Daim, we have already been told by the Daim that Imam offered zuhr and asr prayers without gap. Thus the Imam's practice had already been made clear.

This paragraph starts with a 'however'. This is a device to bring in an exception. Here, attention of the Imams is being drawn to what was happening among people. It clearly states that whereof (meaning about this situation) Imams were apprised. Imam has already given his verdict by his practice as earlier described. This is not Imam overturning his practice. It is the Imam who is being informed. Imam is not making a ruling.

The author then states that this is similar to Imam Baqir's prayers. He writes that there are reports that the time elapsed between Imam's prayers had been observed to be about two hours because he performed many optional prayers. Imam Sadiq confirmed the report. That is what is meant by 'according to the dictum of Imam Sadiq. If this was not the case, would all the Shia violate their Imam's practice?

In another thread Ghulam Mohammed mentioned the tawwabun. Tawwabun were responsible for killing both Shimr, who beheaded Imam Husain and the Governor of Kufa at the time of Karbala, Ubaidullah bin Ziyad. This was, according them, punishments meted out to them because of their crimes agains ahlul bayt. Do you think the tawwabun were right in doing this? After all, the victims were engaged in carrying out the orders of the 'rightful' Khalifa, Yazid bin Muawiyah. And, remember, they established a fabulous dynasty which ruled Spain in the name of Islam for several centuries.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby anajmi on Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:54 pm

we have already been told by the Daim that Imam offered zuhr and asr prayers without gap.


Yes and that is because the Imam's zuhr prayer took 2 hours to perform!! Which is confirmed later on

- and prays in the proper manner, would not take less than two hours of the day [to perform them].


And since Imams would, obviously pray in the proper manner, it simply confirms that if your zuhr prayer takes two hours, then, and only then, will there be no gap between zuhr and asr. Case closed..again.

would all the Shia violate their Imam's practice?


Yes. That is what it looks like. Anyway, don't try to explain the unexplainable. You are simply confirming that which I am stating. It isn't that difficult to understand. What does the Daim say about the "ghayb na jaankar" Dai? Aren't all bohras violating their Imams in that manner?

Then, since porus has chosen to ignore the length of the "ruddy glow", I will address it. The ruddy glow lasts for atleast 25 minutes at the equator and the length increases as you move towards the poles. This means that the gap between the beginning of maghrib and the beginning of Isha would be atleast 25 minutes. Now unless bohras take 25 minutes to pray maghrib, they cannot pray isha immediately after maghrib. And since I can confirm that they do not take 25 mins, they are violating their Imam.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby Muslim First on Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:48 am

Re: Prayers in Qur'an
by porus on Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:36 am

(30:17) EXTOL, then, God’s limitless glory when you enter upon the evening hours, and when you rise at morn

These are fajr prayer and magharib prayer.

(30:18) and [seeing that] unto Him is due all praise in the heavens and on earth, [glorify Him] in the afternoon as well, and when you enter upon the hour of noon.

This is asr prayer and zuhr prayer

(11:114) And be constant in praying at the beginning and the end of the day, as well as during the early watches of the night.

These are fajr, magharib, and isha prayers

So, these are the five prayers as interpreted by the majority of the Muslim Ulama. It is also in line with teaching of Daa'imul Islam, whose primary authority is the Quran as interpreted by Imam Jafar al-Sadiq and earlier Imams.

The above Quran quotes are Muhammad Asad translations.

The following is from Maududi's Tafheemul Quran:

(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11:114, 24:58
(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 17:78 and 30:18
(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr in Arabic), given in 2:238
(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11:114
(5) The Night Prayer (Isha in Arabic), given in 24:58

Reading Arabic Quran, I agree with Maududi.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby Haggi on Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:20 pm

Al Zulfikar,
Thank you for your comments, but I think you have read me incorrectly. Never at any point did I try to condone of whatever is happening in Bohoraism today or for the last 100 years. If you read my text carefully you will notice that all I was just stating that I personally have not heard these laanats on the first 3 Caliphs, in public, in any vaez. I was stating a straight fact and
nothing more than that. If they do in private or in Sabaaqs, I have no idea as I have never attended one and have no desire to do so, though have been invited many a times. Please note that I also mentioned that I'm a non participitating member most of the time but yes, I do make rare appearance once in a while.
Lastly, your comment on my being taken in by these wily Banias is a bit offensive. We Bohoras including yourself, are we not all Baniyas or ex Baniyas who are and were traditionally traders.
I beg you not to ever forget that we are Indian convertees from an alien faith from the Arab world and the only 2 of communities heralding the Ismailism/shia/ Fatimid practices, whereas the Arabs have long ago given up on Ismailism as an lost cause and faith.
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Re: The Factors - Characters leading to the tragedy of Karbala

Unread postby Al Zulfiqar on Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:22 am

brother haggi,

now its my turn to say perhaps you have misunderstood me. at no point have i indicated that you are condoning the evils being perpetrated on us. all that i have said is that they are still uttering laanats on the first 3 khalifas but in code language so as not to provoke the sunni's. maybe you have not heard it where you lived, but this is being practised in india and other places where laws are much more lenient and people can be bribed easily.

as for my comment about baniyas; agreed, we are all converts from the vohra gujrati hindus, but my comment was aimed more specifically towards our clergy headed by syedna who have carried the practices of ruthless baniyas into our deen and view our community as a money making business, to be milked, exploited and kept in check by cunning and deceit. this meaning should have been readily understood in its actual context. perhaps i was remiss in clarifying. it was not my intention to offend you or the majority at large, the community is generally blameless and is being subtly manipulated and brainwashed.

the majority of shias are non-arabic speaking, esp. persians. but there are sizeable populations of shias in arabic speaking countries throughout the gulf, who have been kept isolated and oppressed for centuries but are only now raising their heads. in fact the president of yemen is a shia too, and yet waging a war on shias for political expediency.
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