is progressive a different religion....

[guy_sam2005]

i want to understand you guys..i tried to make out from your posts but couldnt..wat is that you guys want..you want us abdes to join your community?
or
you want to join the mainstream and lay down rules for the dai....
wat are you guys against,,

[SBM]

Guy
I think I and other had posted the questions but seems like you have joined the ranks of other ORTHOS who visit this forum and always divert the topic and never accept the responsibility nor ever answer the questions
I for one would still like to be part of so called mainstream aka Orhtos if the corruption is rooted out, transparency is there and
Dawat returns to what it used to be before 51st took over. Dais before 51st were simple, more human and caring and less money hungry. they did not have Shezadas and becoming a Mulla or Shaikh during their time was not 'HOW MUCH YOU PAY BUT HOW MUCH YOU KNEW ABOUT DEEN AND DAWAT"
One more question, how many Shaikhs and Mullas really know about Dawat and Deen. On this forum, GM mentioned about Shaukat Sarkar, who was Shaikh and had a Supari on him and that is how he was killed. if you google his name you will find his life history and will discover that he was selling stolen BMW to Shezadas and others,also provided Flats in his SARKAR TOWER to KOTHARI higher ups while he enjoyed drinking and gambling and still was granted SHAIKH
Syedi Qutbuddin shahid did not compromise on his principle and was martyred by Aurangzeb while this DAI has no problem compromising religion with Modi and Thackreys to save his empire LET US COMPARE DAI TO DAI

[S. Insaf]

Guy,
I request you to read "Reformists and their religious beliefs" by Asghar Ali Engineer in Article on this form. There are other articles also like "Why are reformists misunderstood?" and "What makes Bohras blind followers?" etc.

[haqqun nafs]

muslims never used mobile or internet 1400 years ago lets compare muslim to muslim first


stupid omadonkey u seriously need medical help

[Smart]

muslims never used mobile or internet 1400 years ago lets compare muslim to muslim first


stupid omadonkey u seriously need medical help

How is this post relevant?
Calling people names is not the way to debate or even argue. It just projects your culture (rather lack of it)

[Anwar]

haqqun nafs wrote: muslims never used mobile or internet 1400 years ago lets compare muslim to muslim first
stupid omadonkey u seriously need medical help
These abdes of Moulas(TUS) want to compare today to past when it suits them.
And when they are given some proof like what Omabharti did, and have no reasonable argument, he starts using foul and absusive language. This haqqun nafs has now also become a doctor. Was this degree given, sorry bought, from his sardar?
And WOW what a doctor he is, diagonising on inernet. Is this what he means by living in the internet world??

[mumin]

being given titles of mulla sheikh and n.k.d. by doing big salams is now a thing of the past. now a days if one can do any favours for an amil or bhaisaheb he is given a title. i know for a fact that in chicago a bohri taxi driver once gave a fride to a member of the royal family and instead of paying the taxi fare he was given the title of sheikh.
now a days instead of spending the easy money they are cashing out titles for favours.

[Al Zulfiqar]

HAGGUN NUS-NUS AND GAY SAMMY DUDE,

yes we are a seperate religion from the kufr you are practising or being made to practise by your dai.

we do not do sajda to dai, we do not acknowledge him as haqiqi kaaba or ilah al ard or natiq-e-quran. as muslims and dawoodi bohras we do not approve of his wanton murder of wild animals for pleasure and sport, we do not accept that he is above the laws and practices of islam and its prophet and his sahabas incl. ali, whereby he refuses to give any accounts of all the monies collected in his name, we also do not pray namaz for him or any other human being, and we do not believe that we have to call him sultan or his children as shezaadas and zaadis and bow to them or give them money and call ourselves slaves (abdes) to anyone except Allah. we also condemn your practice of trivialising and mocking the shahadat of imam hussain by reducing it to a senseless ritual and indulging in it even on eids and happy occasions and using it to manipulate the emotions of gullible people and enslaving them mentally.

the religion you practice is not islam or anything else except a human worshipping cult. all your namaaz, rozas and hajj are wasted because of all the shirk you indulge in and your silent and willing acceptance of the robbery and exploitation that the entire community is subjected to.

your intentions in coming here and starting such mischievious threads are clear to us. you are abusing the freedoms which this forum provides to spread your kothari brand of malice and hatred, freedoms which your kothari sites do not provide you. we tolerate half wits and immature puppies like yrselves who have no in-depth knowledge of islam or our scriptures except the lies and nonsense fed to you by your masters, simply because it helps us highlight the jahaalat and unislamic nature of our community today. as the representatives of syedna and the community at large, you are the perfect examples of the low mentality of ignorance and intolerance that has become a hallmark of our brainwashed people.

for that very reason alone you are welcome, as what better advertisement would we need to show the whole world waht we are up against?

[guy_sam2005]

Guy,
I request you to read "Reformists and their religious beliefs" by Asghar Ali Engineer in Article on this form. There are other articles also like "Why are reformists misunderstood?" and "What makes Bohras blind followers?" etc.

i dont want to read any thin from asgar..ae to pakko dushman aj che..i wanna know the views of common people like me..

[guy_sam2005]

muslims never used mobile or internet 1400 years ago lets compare muslim to muslim first


stupid omadonkey u seriously need medical help

How is this post relevant?
Calling people names is not the way to debate or even argue. It just projects your culture (rather lack of it)

why dont yo give the advice to your bunch..az gm(sometimes)and jc..i have never used a bad word for anyone but they do...i dont complain though,its just that you mentioned.

[guy_sam2005]

so wat do you you want az....you want the dai to follow your guidelines or you want us all to oppose dai for following his..please make this clear without being frustrated...
ok we dont have knowledge you do..you show us the right path..wat do i do????shall we make you our dai...you wont ask for salaams..and ziafats n all.......we wont have to call you syedna na...will call u hey zulfi dude wats up man...hows namaz n all goin..pretty cool..oh yea man way to go...is that kinda dai you want

[Smart]

Guy,
I request you to read "Reformists and their religious beliefs" by Asghar Ali Engineer in Article on this form. There are other articles also like "Why are reformists misunderstood?" and "What makes Bohras blind followers?" etc.

i dont want to read any thin from asgar..ae to pakko dushman aj che..i wanna know the views of common people like me..

Doesn't this post of yours show that you come here with a prejudiced mind. This is exactly the outcome of the brainwashing done to the abdes. Badmouth certain people who are learned and can speak the truth, so the brainwashed will be inoculated from the truth. Do come with an open mind and truth can't elude you. The truth does not depend upon who expounds it.

[like_minded]

so wat do you you want az....you want the dai to follow your guidelines or you want us all to oppose dai for following his..please make this clear without being frustrated...
ok we dont have knowledge you do..you show us the right path..wat do i do????shall we make you our dai...you wont ask for salaams..and ziafats n all.......we wont have to call you syedna na...will call u hey zulfi dude wats up man...hows namaz n all goin..pretty cool..oh yea man way to go...is that kinda dai you want

Why the heck do u want a leader or a dai in the first place? What is required is the belief in your ownself, come in contact with reality... it'll teach you all that is required. Your leader (dai) will only exploit and loot you, because that's what he's made up of.

Wake up!!! Wake up!!!

[guy_sam2005]

ok so we dont need a leader so we dont need a prophet nor imams ,then even quran in just a book and kaaba just a stone......everyone needs a leader..just imagine a mosque where everyone fighting for superiority..
there has been a leader from the day god made earth............

[guy_sam2005]

for smart,
Do u know him personally?and no i am not bad mouthing anyone..u dont pust a person in nineties unless u really hate them(thts dushmani).
i am debating with a open mind..i have never called any of your beliefs wrong.its just a point of view..
you see wrong in dai n practices i dont............infact none of us does....corruption can be kept in check but can never be wiped out....yea sometimes it shoots up but is brought in check again is wat i feel.......all other accustaions of your guys is wrong..
wat i still dont understand is wat you want moula(tus) to do..become a dummy in your guys hands..give you accounts and all..why just money interests you guys..are you guys after a share in it?

[Maqbool]

Post by guy_sam2005 on Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:02 pm
so wat do you you want az....you want the dai to follow your guidelines or you want us all to oppose dai for following his..please make this clear without being frustrated...

Yes we want dai to follow the guidelines of general laws of humanity. He should not have sent the guy again for amalat who has robbed the mumenins in his first tenure, like he has sent the crook Sayedul kher to Chennai. It gives impression that by doing this Dai is also having some share in this loot.

If dai is sincere he would have kicked him out from the dawat services.

[like_minded]

ok so we dont need a leader so we dont need a prophet nor imams ,then even quran in just a book and kaaba just a stone......everyone needs a leader..just imagine a mosque where everyone fighting for superiority..

The idea of creating prophets, imams, scriptures etc are only in place to control the masses, In reality it is meaningless. What is required is a clear vision, ability to understand... then there is no need for prophets or imams or scriptures... just awareness.. and taking life as it comes. That is real living!!!

If you take support of a leader, then rest assured you'll never be able to taste life because he'll constantly instill his ideology into your head and you'll accept it out of faith, respect and belief even if it doesn't agree with your true nature... In the course of time your conditioning becomes too thick... and out of all this the real gainer is your leader.... because then he sits back and reaps the reward.. Monetary reward... because that is what he wants. He does not want you to look into your heart and find answers, he does not want you to become self-reliant, he does not want you to become a spiritual person... all he wants is for you to be obedient, think low of yourself, completely throw away your self-respect, dignity and blindly follow what he preaches... YES, thats what he wants... because that is in his interest.. So.... Wake up!!!! Wake up!!!! You are fast asleep... Wake up!!! Wake up!!! and SEE

[SBM]

Guy

.just imagine a mosque where everyone fighting for superiority.

.

I go to lot Sunni as well Jafferia Mosques, there are no fighting for superiority as they do have election to elect Board and they hire an Imam ( not in sense of Shia belief) to lead prayers and do regular teaching or Dawah. The Board have more authority as against Bohras where Aamil has authority over the APPOINTED Board so there are NO CHECKS AND BALANCES IN BOHRA SYSTEM

[Smart]

for smart,
Do u know him personally?and no i am not bad mouthing anyone..u dont pust a person in nineties unless u really hate them(thts dushmani).
i am debating with a open mind..i have never called any of your beliefs wrong.its just a point of view..
you see wrong in dai n practices i dont............infact none of us does....corruption can be kept in check but can never be wiped out....yea sometimes it shoots up but is brought in check again is wat i feel.......all other accustaions of your guys is wrong..
wat i still dont understand is wat you want moula(tus) to do..become a dummy in your guys hands..give you accounts and all..why just money interests you guys..are you guys after a share in it?

Does age alone absolve a human being of wrongdoing? If age is the only criterion, then you should be following older people in the Caucasus Mountain area, where almost everybody lives to be over hundred.

The abdes will declare laanat on all and sundry who do not agree with them. Have your leaders ever told you why they spew laanat? Are the philosophical issues discussed threadbare? Name calling and gaali galoch is the culture promoted and cultivated by your leaders, no wonder some of us who come from the same background get carried away, when they feel they can't stand fools, but in your case it is the norm.

[guy_sam2005]

i want to understand you guys..i tried to make out from your posts but couldnt..wat is that you guys want..you want us abdes to join your community?
or
you want to join the mainstream and lay down rules for the dai....
wat are you guys against,,
my question simply remains unanswered

[Smart]

^
The problem with you and other orthies is that like you are trained to think like George Bush in black and white, simplistic terms. "If they are not with us, they are against us". This is what brought the US to the brink, which Obama with his understanding is trying to undo.

Please remember the reformists are not against anybody. This is the false propaganda spread by the vested interests
The reformists are for transparency and restoration of the rightful deen, which has been converted into a money raking, personality cult by the vested interests.

Now do you get it? It is really very simple, if you have an open mind.

[admirer]

i dont want to read any thin from asgar..ae to pakko dushman aj che..i wanna know the views of common people like me..

Doesn't this post of yours show that you come here with a prejudiced mind. This is exactly the outcome of the brainwashing done to the abdes. Badmouth certain people who are learned and can speak the truth, so the brainwashed will be inoculated from the truth. Do come with an open mind and truth can't elude you. The truth does not depend upon who expounds it.

Bro Smart,

Don't you think that progs also have a prejudiced mindset?
If we oppose Asgar Ali, you say we are wrong, but what when you ridicule the dai? Isn't that a prejudice too.

As you say 'the truth doesn't depend upon who expounds it'.. then you should be very much open to hearing patiently our side of things too..

My query is pretty much similar to that of guy_sam. The progs say dai is a cheat, and should be removed.. but what next.? if everyone is corrupt and everyone is removed, how do you want the system to be run?!?! Should we have a democratic voting system?

[admirer]

Guy

.just imagine a mosque where everyone fighting for superiority.

.

I go to lot Sunni as well Jafferia Mosques, there are no fighting for superiority as they do have election to elect Board and they hire an Imam ( not in sense of Shia belief) to lead prayers and do regular teaching or Dawah. The Board have more authority as against Bohras where Aamil has authority over the APPOINTED Board so there are NO CHECKS AND BALANCES IN BOHRA SYSTEM

OMA IDIOT (I am calling you names)

Since you go to all kinds of mosque (Sunni, Jafferi, Bohri) and may be going to temples too, you are completely confused and trying to mix all principles togehter.
It s better you become a wahabi and i am thankful to the aamil who has forced you to remain away from mainstream.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Don't you think that progs also have a prejudiced mindset?
If we oppose Asgar Ali, you say we are wrong, but what when you ridicule the dai? Isn't that a prejudice too.

As you say 'the truth doesn't depend upon who expounds it'.. then you should be very much open to hearing patiently our side of things too..

My query is pretty much similar to that of guy_sam. The progs say dai is a cheat, and should be removed.. but what next.? if everyone is corrupt and everyone is removed, how do you want the system to be run?!?! Should we have a democratic voting system?

blind admirer,

dont try to de disingenous by pretending to be stupid. the progressives are open minded to the extent that you can write or meet asgharali engineer personally and ask him your questions directly. there are several interviews in the archives here where he had open meetings with othodox bohras and they asked him tough questions to which he replied without hesitation. ask the admin and he will provide you the links and if you need, also his address in bombay.

the progressives have never said the dai should be removed. all we say is that he should follow the principles of our deen as clearly detailed in our scriptures like quran, daim ul islam, tohfatul qulub and others, and faithfully followed by the prophet, ali, all the imams and 50 dai's before now; on accountability, justice, transparency and management of our jamaats and community properties. the dai is not above the law or the practices of the prophet and ali, is he?

the day you accept that, that is the day you will be a true muslim and bohra. until you dont, you are a munafik, a kafir and a plain abde syedna.

[Human]

Guy .

I go to lot Sunni as well Jafferia Mosques, there are no fighting for superiority as they do have election to elect Board and they hire an Imam ( not in sense of Shia belief) to lead prayers and do regular teaching or Dawah. The Board have more authority as against Bohras where Aamil has authority over the APPOINTED Board so there are NO CHECKS AND BALANCES IN BOHRA SYSTEM

OMA IDIOT (I am calling you names)

Since you go to all kinds of mosque (Sunni, Jafferi, Bohri) and may be going to temples too, you are completely confused and trying to mix all principles togehter.
It s better you become a wahabi and i am thankful to the aamil who has forced you to remain away from mainstream.

I was born to dawoodi bohra parents. But I go to churches, temples and all the different community mosques. It doesn't change anything when I respect all the religions. In my belief every religion is as true for their followers as bohra-ism is for you. I follow principles of humanity. Doing good, helping the ones in need and fighting for truth. I don't need to rely on namaaz or majlis for that fact to get close to God. Your statement only proves that you are a pathetic discriminatory racist and a loser. Discrimination is in your blood.

[Smart]

@admirer

The progressives don't want the dai to be removed. They just want him to change:
1. From leading a personality cult to a deen based system.
2. Lead the community in religion and not be involved in financial matters of the community, give up his sole propietorship of all community properties.
3. Stop making false claims, about being 'ilahul ard', 'ghaib na malik' , mojizas, etc.
4. Stop harassing people just because they don't accept everything he says, especially things that do not gel with our deen.
5. Stop creating situations, whereby people leave and go, and urging them to do so, when he is supposed to bring people to faith, being a dai.
6. Stop all unislamic practices, such as insisting on his picture in each house. Rather he should discourage this.
7. Have a responsive administration in place of the corrupt kothar. If people have to accept that he is innocent and it is people below are corrupt, he should take action to remove them. Banning crooks from his own family, like Syedul Khair will go a long way in convincing people.
8. Stop the gaali galoch culture nurtured by him, and bring in the earlier system of allowing people to ask questions and expect them to be answered honestly.
9. Stop selling titles, especially to those moneybags who have nothing to contribute in terms of knowledge, especially those who are dunkards and rapists. He can check out the credibility on whom titles are conferred.

I am sure, if he does this, most reformists would have no reason to complain. Is it a tall order?

[guy_sam2005]

^
The problem with you and other orthies is that like you are trained to think like George Bush in black and white, simplistic terms. "If they are not with us, they are against us". This is what brought the US to the brink, which Obama with his understanding is trying to undo.

Please remember the reformists are not against anybody. This is the false propaganda spread by the vested interests
The reformists are for transparency and restoration of the rightful deen, which has been converted into a money raking, personality cult by the vested interests.

Now do you get it? It is really very simple, if you have an open mind.

wat is rightfull deen..is syedna mohammad burhanudin your 52nd dai and head of dawoodi bohras..yes or no?

[like_minded]

wat is rightfull deen..is syedna mohammad burhanudin your 52nd dai and head of dawoodi bohras..yes or no?


NO Syedna Burhanuddin is a thug, a manipulator who sells God to fill his own pocket. If there is really a jahannam he deserves to go there right now!

[guy_sam2005]

wat is rightfull deen..is syedna mohammad burhanudin your 52nd dai and head of dawoodi bohras..yes or no?


NO Syedna Burhanuddin is a thug, a manipulator who sells God to fill his own pocket. If there is really a jahannam he deserves to go there right now!

ok so be it..then why do you bother to be a reformist?wat are you gonna reform....first get all reformists on one line..is syedna your dai or not..here itself you guys have different opinions..reform your guys opinions first then we will discuss bout the movement and all ...

[like_minded]

wat is rightfull deen..is syedna mohammad burhanudin your 52nd dai and head of dawoodi bohras..yes or no?


NO Syedna Burhanuddin is a thug, a manipulator who sells God to fill his own pocket. If there is really a jahannam he deserves to go there right now!

ok so be it..then why do you bother to be a reformist?wat are you gonna reform....first get all reformists on one line..is syedna your dai or not..here itself you guys have different opinions..reform your guys opinions first then we will discuss bout the movement and all ...

Who said I was a reformist?? Please go through my posts... and tell me in which one did I say that I was a reformist?