Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

[porus]

Shias claim that the prophet (saw) often sought Hazrat Ali's advise in matters. Can we say that we should reject this shia claim because it now gives the shias the license to blindly follow someone other than Allah and his prophet?

It is ok for Muhammad to seek advice from ahlul bayt, as I define the term. The precedent this sets for the Shia is that they should follow the rightful Imam. And Muhammd said that much explicitly at Ghadeer e Khum.

I am reminded of an episode when Rasulullah offered Ali his shoulders to climb on to reach the door of the Kaaba so that Ali could smash the idols that were kept inside the Kaaba. Bohras explain that any other person climbing on the shoulders of Rasulullah would amount to disrespect. However, both these men are associated intimately with the Quran, one as its bearer and the other as the interpreter of its inner meaning. And only Quran can be kept on top of another Quran.

When Ali came down from Kaaba, he jumped off it rather than use Rasulullah's shoulders. Muhammad said to Ali that he went up on the shoulders of the bearer of the Quran and came down on the wings of Jibrail, the bringer of the Quran.

[anajmi]

porus,

You are explaining logic with fairy tales. Apparently, what is good for the goose is not good for gander.

I myself am reminded of an episode where the prophet (saw) himself rested on the lap of Hazrat Abu Bakr during their hijrat to Mecca. But the bohras will obviously reject this hadith. So let us not get into these episodes as for some people leaning towards idol worship, these episodes become more than they actually are which causes them to reject some hadith, not based upon its authenticity but based upon their own pre-conceived notions.

I think we can rest this matter over here. What the prophet (saw) did as far as determining the beginning of the month is concerned has been clearly established. Whether we choose to follow that or not is based entirely upon us and the conditions that exist today.

[Muslim First]

According to Bohra calendar 1st of Zilqad al-haraam is on Wednesday 26th of October. Since Islamic day begins on evening, evening of Tuesday the 25th will be 1st of Zilqad al-haraam.

According to http://moonsighting.com/1432zhj.html , The Astronomical New Moon is on October 26, 2011 (Wednesday) at 19:56 UT. On Oct 26 it cannot be seen anywhere in the world. On Thursday, October 27, 2011, it can be easily seen in Southern Africa and South America, but with difficulty in Central Africa and Souther areas of North America. On October 28, it can be easily seen everywhere except very North Europe and Very North Asia (See visibility curves).

The calendar approved by Fiqh Council of North America (ISLAMIC DATES BEGIN at SUNSET THE PRECEDING EVENING)( http://moonsighting.com/calendars/2011fcna.html ) We see that 1st of Dhul-Hijjah is on Friday the 28th. (ISLAMIC DATES BEGIN at SUNSET THE PRECEDING EVENING that is Thursday the 27th). For a person living in Boston it is 2 day difference in Muslim and DB belief. If I was born on 1st and was a DB, I will be celebrating on Wednesday and if I was Muslim I would be doing it on Friday (in reality as a Muslim I will not be celebrating BD)

BTW Eid ul Adha is on Sunday 6th of Nov. for Muslims, while DB Brothers will be doing it on Friday the 4th.

Please take Aspirin if your head is spinning.

[Doctor]

Please take Aspirin if your head is spinning.

Bhai MF,

If you follow Wahabi/Sunni practices of citing moon than following fix period (per Quran 2:184) and go to north/south poles - then your head will really spin! Indeed will you and your co-followers be even alive to take Aspirin? I leave it to you to figure.

[porus]

According to Bohra calendar 1st of Zilqad al-haraam is on Wednesday 26th of October. Since Islamic day begins on evening, evening of Tuesday the 25th will be 1st of Zilqad al-haraam.

MF bhai Saheb,

You have again got your knickers in a twist! Where did you get those dates from?

The new moon occurs in Cairo at 9 p.m. on 26th October. So the month Zil Hajj should start at sunset on 27th October and end at sunset on 28th October. That is exactly so according to Bohra calendar.

BTW Eid ul Adha is on Sunday 6th of Nov. for Muslims, while DB Brothers will be doing it on Friday the 4th.

Wrong again! Eidul Adha is on the 6th November according to Bohra Calendar.

Dear MF Bhai, should we take you seriously at all?

[porus]

porus,

You are explaining logic with fairy tales.

Out of all the explanation that I offered all you could do is to concentrate on your well-known views about Ali.

You are right, let us end the discussion right here.

I have demonstrated that if only Bohras follow fixed Misri calendar, then Bohras are the only ones who follow the Quran correctly in this matter. Thus I agree with Mubarak/Doctor Saheb that the rest of the Muslims do not follow the 2:184 correctly.

As to the use of the word "ma'dudaat", elsewhere in the Quran, I suggest you spend more time on learning Arabic before trying to educate us on it.

[anajmi]

As to the use of the word "ma'dudaat", elsewhere in the Quran, I suggest you spend more time on learning Arabic before trying to educate us on it.

Learning Arabic is obviously not going to help me get it right will it? Otherwise bohras wouldn't have been the only ones to follow the Quran correctly!! Infact, when I was completely ignorant of what the Quran says, I was following the bohra misri calendar.

[anajmi]

Out of all the explanation that I offered

I apologize for that, but I didn't see anything that I hadn't seen and countered before. Your explanation that we have the means to follow the Quran more accurately than the prophet (saw) did, notwithstanding his access to Jibraeel (as) (and hence Allah himself), is duly noted.

[Doctor]

There is a very clear hadith that the Prophet (saw) and his followers in Mecca were fasting on the 30th when a visiting group came and told them that they had sighted the moon on their journey. The prophet (saw) and his followers broke the fast immediately. He didn't say that the Quran says fixed number of days and hence it has to be 30. He followed the cycle of the moon and trusted other muslims and he made a mistake too. Or did he?

Prophet Mohammed (s) is error-less otherwise anyone will accuse that he can (mazallah) make mistakes in categorizing hallal & haram, make error in delivering stanzas of Quran from Allah to humans, etc! Prophet Mohammed (s) cannot make error so, your hadith above is erroneous.

Mohammed (s), the leader of all prophets born on Earth; per Anajmi- Prophet is incorrectly observing fast and some unknown/stranger saw moon somewhere (how far? not known!) and on his claim; Prophet Mohammed (s) the Prophet of Allah who went beyond Moon on Mairaj, realizes his error and break his fast!

In your urge to justify your faith which is not in compliance with 2:184 - please don't make an unknown/stranger superior than Prophet Mohammed (s) and don't make false acquisitions that Prophet Mohammed (s) made mistakes! It is firm belief of DB that Mohammed (s) can never make any mistakes.

[anajmi]

Prophet Mohammed (s) is error-less

I agree with you 100%. Hence prophet's (saw) command to look out for the moon on the 29th and if not seen make the month 30 day long, should be followed as is. We should not be creating calendars going against the error-less prophet (saw).

You might want to correct porus according to whom bohras have the means to follow the Quran more accurately than the prophet (saw).

Thank you brother Doctor Saab for finally agreeing with me.

[canadian]

"Prophet Mohammed (s) is error-less"

Maanas maatra bhul ne paatra- Gujarati proverb.

[Doctor]

Prophet Mohammed (s) is error-less

I agree with you 100%. Hence prophet's (saw) command to look out for the moon on the 29th and if not seen make the month 30 day long, should be followed as is. We should not be creating calendars going against the error-less prophet (saw).

You might want to correct porus according to whom bohras have the means to follow the Quran more accurately than the prophet (saw).

Thank you brother Doctor Saab for finally agreeing with me.

Prophet Mohammed (s) will always be in compliance with Quran 2:184 = Prophet Mohammed always fasted for fixed period in Ramadan = your Wahabi flavored hadith above is proven incorrect again like it is almost all the times = Hence, Prophet Mohammed practice = DB practice = rest (non DB) sects are incorrect.

[anajmi]

Prophet Mohammed always fasted for fixed period in Ramadan

So you are saying that the prophet (saw) was cheating the rest of us when he told us to watch out for the moon after the 29th? Are you calling the prophet (saw) a cheater? Nauzubillah, Astagfirullah, tauba, tauba.

[Doctor]

Quran is primary and error-less. Hadit can be falsely created by mischief makers. So, If a hadith is not in line with Quran then reject it: Wahabi flavored hadit that you quoted is against command of 2:184 so it is rejected, it is fake hadith. This Wahabi flavored fake hadith is to only fool gullible like you who cannot accept Allah command in 2:184.

In frustration of your defeat, don't make blasphemous statement against our Prophet Mohamed (s).

[anajmi]

Quran is primary and error-less.

Yes, but those who interpret the Quran are not error less. The interpretation of 2:184 (30 days) as per Imam, does not exist. Daimul Islam says watch for the moon and obey the Imam. No directions from any Imam for 30 days, without looking at the moon, exist. As the Quran says "Bring your proof if you are truthful."

[ghulam muhammed]

Hadit can be falsely created by mischief makers. So, If a hadith is not in line with Quran then reject it: Wahabi flavored hadit that you quoted is against command of 2:184 so it is rejected, it is fake hadith. This Wahabi flavored fake hadith is to only fool gullible like you who cannot accept Allah command in 2:184.

So what about the Shia/Bohra Hadith regarding Imamah ?????

[Muslim First]

So what about the Shia/Bohra Hadith regarding Imamah ?????

There is no clear cut Hadith or Aya in Qur'an regarding Imamah.

Doctor Saheb take my Qur'an challenge.

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=6533

also read

THE QURAN AND THE IMAMAH

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/qur ... imamah.htm

[porus]

So what about the Shia/Bohra Hadith regarding Imamah ?????

There is no clear cut Hadith or Aya in Qur'an regarding Imamah.

Dear brother Muslim First,

Let us split your sentence into two statements:

1. There is no Sunni hadith that I have been told about regarding Imamat as the Shia understand the term. And I absolutely, 100%, believe in whoever tells me that. I never read opposing views and will never be caught dead reading them.

2. There is no ayat in the Quran regarding Imamat as the Shia understand the term. That is so according to all the Sunni/Wahhabi websites that I have been providing links for on this forum. I will never ever listen to a Shia. I will always intrude on other people's discussions by providing links to websites which I trust absolutely without any thinking because they are all anti-Shia. I never ever think for myself and never offer my own opinion because I do not have any. In this respect, there is absolutely no difference between me and a fanatical, bigoted abde.

[porus]

anajmi,

Doctor Saheb is correct. Quran is paramount. The hadith you quote is suspect because it does indeed contradict the Quran.

Allah says that orbits of the sun and moon are fixed. It means that the occurrence of new moon is fixed. Your hadith suggests that Muhammad is saying that it is not fixed.

Once you reject the hadith and do not hang on to it with the tenacity of a bigot, you will be able to think clearly.

Accept the truth of the Quran that planetary orbits are fixed. What, then, are its implications? Men of intelligence will be able to predict the start of the lunar month. You cannot avoid a natural fact that there are 30 sunrises every lunar month, but only 29.54 days in it. Muslims arbitrarily divide months into 29 or 30 days. This requires adding one day every 3 years to one of the 12 months.

Obviously, the month that must be adjusted cannot be Ramadan because of 2:184, which requires fixed number of fasts.

You have two options:

1. Fix Ramadan at 30 days
2. Fix Ramadan at 29 days

Which option do you choose? Because there are 30 sunrises in every month, I would fix 30 days for Ramadan. And that is what has been done by Misri Calendar.

One does not need to look at any hadith, which could be false. And one does not need to be concerned about which Imam fixed 30 days for Ramadan. Quran itself is very clear and it addresses men of intelligence to ponder over the Creation and derive the means to arrange affairs of mankind.

[anajmi]

porus,

30 sunrises every lunar month, but only 29.54 days in it.

Even scientifically, I disagree with your statement. Astronomically, a sunrise is the same as a sunset and either one of them actually means nothing. Why does every lunar month have 30 sunrises? Why not 30 sunsets? 30 sunrises from one side of the earth is equal to 30 sunsets from the other side of the world. So 29 days of ramadan is the same as 30 days of ramadan. Planetory orbits are fixed, the days of a lunar month are not. As you yourself said, the lunar month has 29.54 days. The best possible way is to have Ramadan with 29 days and 30 days alternating every year. Even better than that would be to follow the sunnah of the prophet (saw). Search the moon after the 29th. If you don't see it, then 30 days for the month.

And please do not ask me to reject authentic hadiths of the prophet (saw). I do not want to end up praying salah wearing just a loin cloth with one foot on the thigh of my other leg, with hands folded over my head in yogi fashion.

[porus]

. Why does every lunar month have 30 sunrises? Why not 30 sunsets? 30 sunrises from one side of the earth is equal to 30 sunsets from the other side of the world. So 29 days of ramadan is the same as 30 days of ramadan.

Great work, Einstein!!

A Muslim day begins at sunset and ends the following sunset. After 29 sunsets, Lunar month still needs further12.96 hours to complete. (i.e. 0.54 day times 24 hours per day = 12.96 hours).

A Muslims fasts from Dawn to Dusk in Ramadan. So the 30th Dawn and hence the 30th sunrise will occur before the month is complete. (For simplicity, let us ignore the fact that in many places night and are not equal in length).

If you ignore the 30th Dawn, then you also miss the last fajr prayer in Ramadan.

Days of Ramadan fast are fixed according to 2:184. You cannot have a variation like 29 days one year and 30 days another year. You can do that for any month other than Ramadan.

This is positively my last post on the subject, and you can stuff Bukhari as far as I am concerned. Quran is enough for me.

[porus]

Days of Ramadan fast are fixed according to 2:184. You cannot have a variation like 29 days one year and 30 days another year. You can do that for any month other than Ramadan.

Let me clarify the above sentence. All the months in Lunar calendar are 29.54 days. That number is fixed.

The number of days in Ramadan is fixed by 2:184 at 30 because a fast must be observed between dawn and sunset. You cannot fast for 0.54 days.

The requirement that we have 12 months of 29.54 days requires an adjustment of 1 day every 3 years to one of the other months. That is entirely a human convenience for reckoning. It is not a religious requirement like 30 fasts, and hence 30 days, in Ramadan.

[anajmi]

The number of days in Ramadan is fixed by 2:184

According to whose interpretation? Can you trace it back to an Imam or the prophet (saw)? A majority of the muslim ummah, including the prophet (saw) and your Imams are not aligned with your interpretation.

Quran is enough for me.

Seriously? A book that is made of false science and unclear? Didn't you say that books by conmen were a model of clarity as compared to the Quran?

[porus]

One does not need to look at any hadith, which could be false. And one does not need to be concerned about which Imam fixed 30 days for Ramadan. Quran itself is very clear and it addresses men of intelligence to ponder over the Creation and derive the means to arrange affairs of mankind.

[anajmi]

So according to porus, neither the prophet (saw) nor Hazrat Ali nor the other Imams were men of intelligence!

[fearAllah]

Bro Anajmi and Muslim First,

How did the Prophet (SAW) prayed the 5 salats? By physically looking at the position if the sun, example observing sunset and offer Maghribh salat as there were no technology like these days to calculate accurate sunset positions.

So why are we using pre-calculated sunset positions with the help of technology these days just like calendars? According to your logic we are not in line with the Quran and Hadiths because prophet physically sighted the sunset/sunrise to pray namaz? The sunrise/sunset times calculated by scientists makes our salat offering much more easier and most importantly accurate than the Prophet (SAW) days.

In the same way one clever Imam (I agree with Porus, Imam Jaffer Sadik, as i have heard the same) invented the Misri calender (in line with the Quran) to make life of Muslims easier and accurate especially during the month of ramazan just like it does above for calculating salat times.


In those days Prophet (SAW) used to sight the moon and sun for help to calculate start/end of Months and Salats times repectively because such advance technology was not available. Thus we say sighting of the moon is in the tradition of the Prophet (SAW) but what about the position of the Sun then for offering salat? why do you neglect it?

In the same tradition, the prophet used fire to cook food, so according to your logic all muslims using gas cookers and microwaves are not in line with prophet (SAW)?

The Prophet used camels and horses for transport, so why do we muslims use aeroplanes these days? the answer is technology was not available those days, i am sure the Prophet would have used all the latest appliances and transport if he was born in our era. And similarly, would have used/formed a proper Calendar with the available technology to fascilitate/ make accurate Ramzan fasting period instead of physically sighting the Sun and the Moon.

[anajmi]

In the same tradition, the prophet used fire to cook food, so according to your logic all muslims using gas cookers and microwaves are not in line with prophet (SAW)?

Correct. Gas cookers and microwaves are haraam. I never liked Microwave food. It changes the taste of the food.

The Prophet used camels and horses for transport, so why do we muslims use aeroplanes these days?

Again, correct. We have to use camels and horses. If we make aeroplanes haraam for muslims, the rest won't have to worry about going through security.

[porus]

Gas cookers and microwaves are haraam. I never liked Microwave food. It changes the taste of the food.

We have to use camels and horses. If we make aeroplanes haraam for muslims, the rest won't have to worry about going through security.

Hilarious. And you forgot to add the following classic!

. Why does every lunar month have 30 sunrises? Why not 30 sunsets? 30 sunrises from one side of the earth is equal to 30 sunsets from the other side of the world. So 29 days of ramadan is the same as 30 days of ramadan.

[anajmi]

Yep that was a big mistake on my part. So how did the prophet (saw) and Hazrat Ali tell us to begin a new month again?

[Doctor]

"Prophet Mohammed (s) is error-less"

Maanas maatra bhul ne paatra- Gujarati proverb.

Should Prophet Mohammed (a), the reveler of Quran, be prone to errors like common humans (mazallah), then someone in past fourteen hundreds years must have found error in Quran and negated Quran's challenge. This has not yet happened and Quran challenge is unbeaten for 1400years. Hence, Prophet Mohammed (a) is error less.