Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

[porus]

May be Shaikh porus can answer anajmi's quesrion, I am still waiting for which Imam decided 30 as the fixed number as per 2:184
Wasalaam

It would appear that the fixed calendar was initially used by Imam Jafer al-Sadiq in Madina. The practice was suspended during Abbasid Caliphate and was revived by Fatimid Imams in Egypt. Hence, it is known as 'Misri' calendar. Misri=Egyptian.

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=5338

[anajmi]

30 days is just as arbitrary as 29 days would've been. The fact that it is 30 days and not 29 means that either the bohras are wrong all the time, or are right all the time. The rest of the sects are right 50% of the time(if we assume that Allah meant 29 or 30 and not both) and they are following the sunnah of the prophet (saw) which has been abandoned by the fatimid dawat for the sake of consistency. As per scholars, trying to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) and being wrong in the process is as good as been right and being right in the process is worth double. A concept that has passed doctor by.

[porus]

30 days is just as arbitrary as 29 days would've been.

Not quite. One Lunar month (from one new moon to next) is 29.53 Solar Days. That is fixed. So, on average, we end up with 30 sunrises in every Lunar month. An occurrence of new moon before the 30th sunrise during Ramadan is, very likely, a rare event.

There are 365.25 days in a Solar year. Dividing that by 29.53 gives you 12.37 Lunar months. In order to round this figure to 12, Muslims assign 29 and 30 days to their calendar months, giving (6 times 29+30) 354 days in the Lunar year. But the actual number of days in the Lunar year is (29.53 times 12) = 354.36 days. Therefore, they must add 1 day to one of their calendar months every 3 years or so to align with the Lunar year. Bohras add a day to Dhul Hajj every 3 years.

In the rare event that new moon occurs before the 30th sunrise in Ramadan, then Ramadan will have 29 days. But in that case, will the new moon ever be sighted?

However, it is not just Ramadan that is begun with the 'sighting' of the new moon. As I have explained, because of errors associated with 'sighting' of the moon, it is those who do not have fixed calendar who are arbitrarily assigning 29 or 30 days to a month all the time.

Since there are 30 sunrises in a Lunar month, fasting in Ramadan ought to be 30 Solar days, fixed. As for the rare one extra day of fast, it should be considered an extra offering in hope of a reward from God.

It should now be clear why Imam Jafar as-Sadiq instructed that Ramadan should be permanently assigned 30 days. He most probably calculated that 30 sunrises in Ramadan with 2:184 commanding fixed number of fasts clinched that number for him.

[anajmi]

porus,

Neither the prophet (saw) nor the Imam went through these calculations. If God intended to fix the number of days as 30 (as per the doctor's interpretation of the Quran) and still wanted us to follow the prophet (moon sighting) he would've made the cycle of the moon fixed and not in between 29 and 30. People have been sighting the new moon before the 30th night of ramadan for centuries. Are you saying that they were kidding themselves? If you say that that is simply because they did the same thing with the previous month, well, that works doesn't it? And it is the sunnah of the prophet (saw). Bohras have to adjust their calendars for the sake of consistency. And that is fine. I keep saying this over and over again. 30 days is not a mandate in the Quran. It is just a figure decided by an Imam on an arbitrary basis. He wanted to make sure that his followers didn't fast a day less by mistake. He was ok with going a day over.

As for the rare one extra day of fast, it should be considered an extra offering in hope of a reward from God.

Unfortunately, fasting on the day of eid is prohibited.

[anajmi]

One other thing, let us assume that bohras are the pristine sect following the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). Now, the sunnah clearly states that the month is to begin with moon sighting (Daimul Islam says this as well). That means that I (or someone somewhere in the world) should be able to the see the new moon at the beginning of every bohra month right? Is that the case?

[porus]

anajmi,

Let us leave aside the 'pristine' nature of any sect ( I think you know my view on that!) but concentrate on what seems reasonable in this day and age giving due regard to both the Quran and Sunna, which are both subject to multiple interpretations. You will find that the new moon, as calculated, aligns with the Bohra Misri Calendar every time. Whether you or anyone else can observe it is questionable owing to conjunctions of sun, moon and earth as well as to error-proneness of human observation capabilities.

Prophet, most likely, may not have used the calculation. But Imam Jafar as-Sadiq, who was a polymath and perhaps the greatest intellectual Imam, very likely did.

The reason why Muslims have been sighting new moon after having completed 29 fasts. is exactly what you have hinted at. They assigned more days to previous months based on their new moon sightings which, I maintain, is error prone.

In any case, when you follow your days according to new moon sightings, which is impossible any way, are you following the Prophet or some authority assigned by some Government? I understand that Prophet's tradition is for 'you', each one of us individually, to start a month according to Lunar cycle, not necessarily by physically observing the new moon.

2:184 requires, I believe, fixed number of fasts in Ramadan. I take that to mean the number must not vary from year to year. Because there are 30 sunrises in every month, except once very rarely, you miss out 30th fajr prayer in the state of fasting. Hence it is more reasonable to fix the days of Ramadan at 30 rather than 29.

As to why some Muslim authorities sight new moon after 29 fasts, I am reminded of the theft of small casket containing Prophet's hair from Hazaratbal masjid in Srinagar, Kashmir in 1960s. After many days of rioting and wanton destruction of life and property, the casket was found supposedly intact with Prophet's hair in it. No one could be sure if it was really the original hair of the Prophet. So, the police took the casket to a very old Mawlana, with failing eyesight, in the masjid. Mawlana opened the casket and screamed that he witnessed the 'light, the light, the light' and confirmed that it was really the Prophet's hair. Nobody else saw the light, of course. But the streets of Srinagar returned to normal.

[anajmi]

are you following the Prophet or some authority assigned by some Government?

This might be true in some dictatorial countries but is not true everywhere. People still search for the moon on the 29th. Sometimes they sight it, sometimes they rely on the sighting of others and on other occasions, they fast for 30 days. There is a very clear hadith that the Prophet (saw) and his followers in Mecca were fasting on the 30th when a visiting group came and told them that they had sighted the moon on their journey. The prophet (saw) and his followers broke the fast immediately. He didn't say that the Quran says fixed number of days and hence it has to be 30. He followed the cycle of the moon and trusted other muslims and he made a mistake too. Or did he?

2:184 requires, I believe, fixed number of fasts in Ramadan.

Again, the prophet (saw) has asked us to look for a new moon on night of the 29th of the month. If he believed it to be fixed, he wouldn'tve said that.

As far as the hair is concerned, that represents the bohra mentality more than the sunni mentality wouldn't you agree?

[porus]

Just like we assign an extra day to February each leap year, Bohras assign an extra day to Dhul Hajj every 'leap year'.

Here is my attempt at composing a rhyme based on the similar rhyme for Gregorian Calendar.

Thirty days we fixed for Ramadan
And also for Muharram, Dhul Qada and Shaban
Not forgetting Jumada One and Rabi One too
All the rest have twenty nine days clear
Except Dhul Hajja which has but thirty days in each leap year.

[anajmi]

Let me give it a shot too.

See the moon? End the month
See the moon? Begin the month
Don't see the moon? 30 days for the month.

[anajmi]

porus

Just thought of something. May be completely off mark. You said that the 30 days calculation was done by Imam Jafar Sadiq. However, the Daimul Islam doesn't talk about Ramadan being 30 days. Infact it talks about moon sighting to establish the beginning of the month. If it had been established by Imam Jafar Sadiq, wouldn't it be a part of the Daimul Islam? Is it possible that the calculation method was established after the Daimul Islam was written and hence after the time of Imam Jafar Sadiq?

[Muslim First]

Never mind Imam Jafar, this one claims Imam Ali invented it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabular_Islamic_calendar

Tabular Islamic calendarFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search

The Tabular Islamic calendar (an example is the Fatimid or Misri calendar) is a rule-based variation of the Islamic calendar. It has the same numbering of years and months but the months are determined by arithmetic rules rather than by observation or astronomical calculations. It was developed by early Muslim astronomers of the second hijra century (the 8th century of the Common Era) to provide a predictable time base for calculating the positions of the moon, sun, and planets. It is now used by historians to convert an Islamic date into a Western calendar when no other information (like the day of the week) is available.

It is used by some Muslims in everyday life, particularly in the Dawoodi Bohra Ismaili community and they believe that this calendar was developed by Ali. It is believed by the Dawoodi Bohras that when Ali drew up this calendar, the previous events of the earlier prophets also fell into line with this calendar. It is their firm belief, that all Fatimid Imams and their Da'ees have followed this tradition.

Each year has 12 months. The odd numbered months have 30 days and the even numbered months have 29 days, except in a leap year when the 12th and final month has 30 days.

There are 11 leap years in a 30 year cycle. Noting that the average year has 354 11/30 days and a common year has 354 days, at the end of the first year of the 30-year cycle the remainder is 11/30 day. Whenever the remainder exceeds a half day (15/30 day), then a leap day is added to that year, reducing the remainder by one day. Thus at the end of the second year the remainder would be 22/30 day which is reduced to −8/30 day by a leap day. Using this rule the leap years are

2, 5, 7, 10, 13, 16, 18, 21, 24, 26 and 29
of the 30-year cycle. If leap days are added whenever the remainder equals or exceeds a half day, then all leap years are the same except 15 replaces 16.

The Ismaili Tayyebi community uses the following order of leap years in their 30-year cycle.

2, 5, 8, 10, 13, 16, 19, 21, 24, 27 and 29
Apart from these, there are two more orders for the leap years which are as follows

2, 5, 7, 10, 13, 15, 18, 21, 24, 26 and 29
2, 5, 8, 11, 13, 16, 19, 21, 24, 27 and 30

The mean month is 29 191/360 days = 29.5305555... days. This is slightly too short and so will be a day out in about 2500 years. The Tabular Islamic calendar also deviates from the observation based calendar in the short term for various reasons.

Go figure

[Doctor]

Quran 2:184: The actual phrase used in the ayat is أَيَّامًا مَعْدُودَات. - The word ma'adudaat is past participle of the verb 'adda. It means that the number of days have already been determined and are fixed, presumably, by Allah. (Source: Porus bhai).

Hadith quoted by some sects can be rubbished by another, but all sects in Islam are in unison on 100% correctness of Quran and 2:184 categorically and unambiguously commands to have fix number of days. If a Hadith is in line with Quran then it is correct or otherwise. Anajmi and alike instead of considering Quran as primary criterion, to fool themselves they are quoting false Hadith which is non-linear with Quran but justify their anti-Quran 2:184 faith!

Faith of Anajmi, Muslim First and alike is falsified and defeated by Quran 2:184. These two and alike are so deeply fallen in the hole of their ‘gumraha’ faith, that they are unable to see the light of 2:184. So, to further fool themselves and to divert attention they are trying to argue on the number of days: 29 or 30. Discussion on point how many number of days is secondary, Quran 2:184 command on point to have fix number is primary. DB have fix number of days and Sunni and others do not have fix number of days, so at the primary step itself DB faith is proven correct; where else Anajmi, MF and alike faith is proven false. The clear and categorical command of 2:184 is to practice fix number of days in Ramdan, and its contention is not on the number of days. But Anajmi, Muslim first and alike are ignoring the command of “Fix days” because this command falsify their faith.

[Muslim First]

doctor
Faith of Anajmi, Muslim First and alike is falsified and defeated by Quran 2:184. These two and alike are so deeply fallen in the hole of their ‘gumraha’ faith, that they are unable to see the light of 2:184. So, to further fool themselves and to divert attention they are trying to argue on the number of days: 29 or 30

Brother
you worry about your faith.

[Ala maqaam]

this is what jhalat is called,these two clowns anajmi and muslim first comes to a shia website,and when the truth is revealed on them instead of accepting the truth they run away saying "worry about your faith"

yes we worry about our faith then why the hell are u here?

more then these clowns,admin is more stupid to keep them here and mess the whole idea of this movement.

[porus]

Never mind Imam Jafar, this one claims Imam Ali invented it

Brother Muslim First Saheb,

Considering Ali's legendary knowledge, it is not completely unbelievable that he might have thought of a fixed calendar. However, there is no historical evidence so far for that.

What appears to be 'historically' clear is that both Muhammad and Ali started Ramadan after personally observing the 'new' moon. Those who followed them fell in line with them. Just like today, not everyone actually observed the moon themselves, They followed the observation by these authorities.

You need to ask yourself two questions. Are you following the Prophet if you do not personally observe the moon to start your month? Which authority did Prophet follow other than Allah?

If you follow Prophet then you must follow Allah, that is the Quran. Does not Allah say that the orbits of the sun and moon are fixed? If they are fixed, how do you account for year to year variation by fallible humans to start their Ramadan fast and in the number of fasts?

Bohras believe that they are following the Prophet and the 'rightful' Imams that succeeded him in starting their months and, they believe, that that is in accordance with the Quran.

anajmi,

Can you please identify the precise pages of the Poonawala rendition of Daaimul Islam where it commands Muslims to begin the month following the moon sighting? I will comment later on that.

I have no documentary evidence that Imam Jafar as-Sadiq fixed the calendar. However, I have heard that claim many times from knowledgeable Bohras. I have been skeptical about this claim mainly because Twelvers do not follow this calendar. However, they may have kicked out the fixed calendar out of spite against the Fatimids who revived it in Egypt.

Strangely, even Aga Khanis do not appear to follow the Misri calendar.

What is important for Bohras is that they follow their Imam. It is clear that the Fatimids did utilize the fixed calendar. On the other hand non-Bohras seem not to pay attention to 2:184 and have a fixed number of fasts every year. I have explained that Ramadan will, only occasionally, have less than 30 complete solar days. So, fixing it at 30 is more reasonable than at 29. However, that appears not to be your main issue which is about physically seeing the new moon and which, I maintain ,you almost never can see.

I am currently 90% certain that Bohras have it right.

[anajmi]

porus,

Thank you for the response. Whether bohras are right or wrong is out of the question. What is certain is that the prophet (saw) has instructed us to look for the new moon to begin a new month. Whether each individual observes the moon is also not a big issue because as I have shown earlier on this thread, the prophet (saw) relied on the words of travelers to celebrate eid by breaking his fast in the middle. You might choose to reject that hadith.

This is what I had posted earlier on this thread

What does Daim-ul-Islam say about the Dawoodi Bohra Hijri calendar? As per my research (not much) - Nothing!!

However, in the book of fasting and itikaf, under the section "Commencing the Fast" it says

"Ali: When he saw the new moon he used to say, 'God is great, O God, I ask thee for all that is good in this month........."

If you follow Prophet then you must follow Allah, that is the Quran. Does not Allah say that the orbits of the sun and moon are fixed? If they are fixed, how do you account for year to year variation by fallible humans to start their Ramadan fast and in the number of fasts?

As per the prophet (saw) the instructions are to observe the moon on the 29th and if you cannot see the moon then complete 30 days. Are you saying that the prophet (saw) made a mistake in interpreting the Quran? Or that Jibraeel (as) did not teach him right? Or are you rejecting this hadith? That actually would be the easiest thing to do.

[porus]

the prophet (saw) relied on the words of travelers to celebrate eid by breaking his fast in the middle. You might choose to reject that hadith.

Did the episode that hadith recounts occur before or after the revelation that the orbits of the sun and the moon are fixed? That would have a bearing on whether the hadith is believable or not. Frankly, my first reaction is to reject the hadith.

However, in the book of fasting and itikaf, under the section "Commencing the Fast" it says

"Ali: When he saw the new moon he used to say, 'God is great, O God, I ask thee for all that is good in this month........."

The paragraphs following that quote from Ali explains that believers should follow their Imam in beginning and ending their Ramadan fasts. They claim that Imam will not err in this matter. And that explains the Bohra practice.

As per the prophet (saw) the instructions are to observe the moon on the 29th and if you cannot see the moon then complete 30 days. Are you saying that the prophet (saw) made a mistake in interpreting the Quran? Or that Jibraeel (as) did not teach him right? Or are you rejecting this hadith? That actually would be the easiest thing to do.

As a general rule, I will judge a hadith on the basis of my interpretation of the Quran. I cannot be certain which hadith is 'true'. However, Quran's stance appears clear to me.

You will most certainly not see the new moon when it first appears. But Allah 'sees' the new moon and he has given us the intelligence to know when it occurs whether we see it or not. In this day and age, I would prefer to follow Allah's 'sighting' of the new moon rather than anyone else's.

[anajmi]

Quran 2:184: The actual phrase used in the ayat is أَيَّامًا مَعْدُودَات. - The word ma'adudaat is past participle of the verb 'adda. It means that the number of days have already been determined and are fixed, presumably, by Allah. (Source: Porus bhai).

Here is another verse where we see the same word ma'adudaat.

002.080
YUSUFALI: And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?"
PICKTHAL: And they say: The Fire (of punishment) will not touch us save for a certain number of days. Say: Have ye received a covenant from Allah - truly Allah will not break His covenant - or tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not?
SHAKIR: And they say: Fire shall not touch us but for a few days. Say: Have you received a promise from Allah, then Allah will not fail to perform His promise, or do you speak against Allah what you do not know?

Days not fixed.

And another

002.203
YUSUFALI: Celebrate the praises of Allah during the Appointed Days. But if any one hastens to leave in two days, there is no blame on him, and if any one stays on, there is no blame on him, if his aim is to do right. Then fear Allah, and know that ye will surely be gathered unto Him.
PICKTHAL: Remember Allah through the appointed days. Then whoso hasteneth (his departure) by two days, it is no sin for him, and whoso delayeth, it is no sin for him; that is for him who wardeth off (evil). Be careful of your duty to Allah, and know that unto Him ye will be gathered.
SHAKIR: And laud Allah during the numbered days; then whoever hastens off in two days, there is no blame on him, and whoever remains behind, there is no blame on him, (this is) for him who guards (against evil), and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you shall be gathered together to Him.

Days fixed but variations allowed.

And another

003.024
YUSUFALI: This because they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days": For their forgeries deceive them as to their own religion.
PICKTHAL: That is because they say: The Fire will not touch us save for a certain number of days. That which they used to invent hath deceived them regarding their religion.
SHAKIR: This is because they say: The fire shall not touch us but for a few days; and what they have forged deceives them in the matter of their religion.

Days not fixed

011.008
YUSUFALI: If We delay the penalty for them for a definite term, they are sure to say, "What keeps it back?" Ah! On the day it (actually) reaches them, nothing will turn it away from them, and they will be completely encircled by that which they used to mock at!
PICKTHAL: And if We delay for them the doom until a reckoned time, they will surely say: What withholdeth it? Verily on the day when it cometh unto them, it cannot be averted from them, and that which they derided will surround them.
SHAKIR: And if We hold back from them the punishment until a stated period of time, they will certainly say: What prevents it? Now surely on the day when it will come to them, it shall not be averted from them and that which they scoffed at shall beset them.

Allah is talking about setting this date himself. The day is fixed, but we do not know when.

012.020
YUSUFALI: The (Brethren) sold him for a miserable price, for a few dirhams counted out: in such low estimation did they hold him!
PICKTHAL: And they sold him for a low price, a number of silver coins; and they attached no value to him.
SHAKIR: And they sold him for a small price, a few pieces of silver, and they showed no desire for him.

Not sure how a "fixed" price would apply over here.

[anajmi]

The paragraphs following that quote from Ali explains that believers should follow their Imam in beginning and ending their Ramadan fasts. They claim that Imam will not err in this matter. And that explains the Bohra practice.

I am still trying to figure out which Imam it is that established the number of days as 30. It is not Hazrat Ali and it is not Imam Jafar Sadiq.

[porus]

I am still trying to figure out which Imam it is that established the number of days as 30. It is not Hazrat Ali and it is not Imam Jafar Sadiq.

While we cannot be 100% certain, it is likely that Imam Jafar as-Sadiq did fix 30 days for Ramadan for his followers. If that had not been the case, Fatimids would not have revived the practice.

In any case, Quran is clear on this point and seems to support a fixed calendar. So it does not ultimately matter which Imam established the fixed calendar. I am more concerned with whether it is in line with the Quran.

[anajmi]

I am more concerned with whether it is in line with the Quran.

So am I. And I can certainly say that the prophet (saw) and Hazrat Ali understood the Quran better than any Imam or Dai that has passed, is present or will ever come. "Fixed" is an interpretation of the Quran, which I believe is wrong. "Fixed" as per my interpretation simply denotes the mandatory fasting during the entire month of ramadan. If it is "fixed" that is, which may not be the case based upon the other ayahs that I have posted above.

Did the episode that hadith recounts occur before or after the revelation that the orbits of the sun and the moon are fixed? That would have a bearing on whether the hadith is believable or not. Frankly, my first reaction is to reject the hadith.

For those of us who accept the hadith, it doesn't matter when that ayah was revealed because the prophet (saw) would've given us the correct instructions if needed.

[Muslim First]

this is what jhalat is called,these two clowns anajmi and muslim first comes to a shia website,and when the truth is revealed on them instead of accepting the truth they run away saying "worry about your faith"

yes we worry about our faith then why the hell are u here?

more then these clowns,admin is more stupid to keep them here and mess the whole idea of this movement.

Ala
you bevqoof, get off your high horse. How many times we have to remind you that this web site, Tere baap ki nahi he.

I did not want to argue with other guy so I gave him short answer. Reason we are debating here is bacause Doctor insists that bacause off 2:184 only dbs are correct Muslims. There is no point in responding to bevqoof like you.

[Muslim First]

Ala
Do you want to take this Qur'an challenge?

Qur'an challenge? FOR ALA
by Muslim First on Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:19 pm
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=6533

[ghulam muhammed]

I recieved an e-mail recently which is very relevant to the current debate on this thread :-

I am forwarding this attachment - My visit to Saudi Arabia written by Mr. Ali Manikfan of Minicoy Island, Chief Advisor of Hijri Committee of India. I would request you to please arrange to circulate this at the earliest as it is very important as far as World Muslims are concerned. If Saudi Govt not corrected their date of Hijra Calendar there will be confusion in the Day of Arafa which falls on Friday (4 th November 2011) this year.

I, Chief Advisor of the Hijra Committee of India, have come to the Kingdom in connection with the Islamic calendar, which at present does not have unified dates. Different Islamic towns and cities have different dates and this has rendered the calendar impractical and useless and made muslims observe fasting on the Day of Eid, which is
forbidden in Shariah. This cannot be, because

· Islam is the right way of living and the Muslims are the chosen community for guiding others to the Right Path.

· Calendar is the backbone of a society and a society without a backbone cannot stand upright.


Even the eminent newspapers of Saudi Arabia such as Arab News publish wrong dates which have no connection with the Manaazil of the moon. Often one date is repeated twice carelessly as if there is no relevance for dates in Islam.


Disparity of our dates proclaims that we are not united. When others see this weakness in us they prey upon us. We have forgotten the importance of dates even though the Prophet SAW emphasized it during the Hajjathul wida. Seven days are common for all in the world and days are sacred and inviolable. So it goes without saying that date which represents day also must be sacred and common for all irrespective of time and place. So, certainly we are doing something wrong by differing in our dates while treating day as common. And this make some of us fast on the Day of Eid without knowing the right Day of Eid. As all are aware, fasting on the Day of Eid is forbidden by the Prophet SAW.


But we Muslims believe that there is nothing wrong in this. It has become the order of the day and we observe one Eid on three or four days in the world and we are proud that we are differing from Christians and Jews by celebrating one Eid on three days! We forget that it is Haram in the Shariah!. So to eliminate such wrong practice, I am seeking the assistance of Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to promote the true Ummul Qura Calendar in right Islamic and right scientific form. So the purpose of my visit is to convey this message to the Govt of Saudi Arabia and to request concerned authorities to take immediate steps upon this.


Reason for choosing Saudi Arabia


The Haramain from where Islam radiated and reached all parts of the world are situated in Saudi Arabia. The revered Guardian of the Holy cities, His Majesty King Abullah, may Allah protect him is responsible to call for the unification of the dates of the Islamic calendar. His Majesty is the right person to take up the task of unifying the dates of the Islamic calendar. So the work of unification must begin from Saudi Arabia. Rabita had begun it some time back. But somehow dropped it for unknown reasons and Muslims now depend on the Gregorian dates for recording their daily needs. This pathetic condition must change and the Islamic calendar must prevail.


What I am expecting from Saudi Arabian Government?


Government of Saudi Arabia has made extensive studies on the Lunar calendar advocated for the mankind in the Book of Allah, the Quran. The Government has published Ummul Qura calendar, a book containing true lunar calendars for 130 years from 1300 to 1429 AH. It is fully scientific and abiding fully the rules of Quran and Sunnah for the calendar. Dates of this calendar tally perfectly with the Manaazil and Ahillah of the moon as ordered in the Quran and practiced by the Prophet SAW. Even the illiterate people can check the dates with the naked eye observation of the phases of the moon.


The rules of this calendar were changed to satisfy the demands of other Islamic countries which celebrate Eid on second and third day after Eid at Haramain. Their demand that month should begin after people see the Hilaal with the naked eye is contrary to Quran and Sunnah. This sort of demand was raised by the Shia during the regime of Omar RA and it was rejected by the Ijma. Vide Fat'hul Baari


The authorities who changed the rules of Ummul Qura calendar in 1420H accepting the criterion 'Imkane ru'uya' of Makkhah, which is contrary to Quran and Sunnah stated that it was a temporary arrangement for civil purpose alone and they will come back again after 3 years to the astronomical calculations. The name of the calendar was changed as
"New Ummul Qura calendar" But this promise was not kept and 'New' was removed after three years and the false calendar continued under the old name 'Ummul Qura'. The laymen believe that it is the true Ummul Qura calendar.


So this serious matter must be investigated and the false calendars from 1420 to 1450H must be scrapped and the original Ummul Qura calendar from 1430 to 1530AH must be printed and published by the Govt. of Saudi Arabia.


What benefits could Muslim Ummah attain if Saudi Govt implement this project?


Now the Muslim world lacks a substantial calendar to record various needs of the Ummah and depends on the Gregorian dates which are artificial and contrary to Quran and Sunnah, while the Natural lunar dates prescribed in the book of Allah are neglected and rendered impractical by creating a difference in dates. The Muslims community earns the curse of Allah SWT by doing so.


If the Saudi Govt implements the true lunar calendar after thorough investigations, the Ummah will be saved from the wrath of Allah and the Muslim community will be redeemed.


The authorities of the Ottoman Empire discarded the Hijra calendar and adopted the Gregorian calendar. They changed the first date of the Hijra calendar which was actually a Thursday into Friday before they discarded it. Allah SWT took away the Khilafat from them and the Muslims Ummah is left to roam straying into different sects and groups
without a proper leader. The pleasure of Allah is the greatest benefit than all other benefits that can be expected if Saudi Govt. comes forward to implement the calendar of Allah in the world and thereby foster Unity of Ummah.


Mistakes in the existing Ummul Qura Calendar


The present Ummul Qura calendar from 1420 to 1450AH is calculated based on the hypothesis of 'Imkaane ru'uya' or possibility of visibility which is not found in the Quran and the Sunnah. It is built upon the superstition that the Hilaal is seen to the naked eye after sun set on the last day of every lunar month.


The research conducted on sighting Hilaal for a century proves that the Hilaal is not seen to the naked eye on the last day of the month. Even the old records such as Thafseer Ibn Kathir, Thabari, Kurthubi etc. state that Hilaal becomes visible after sun set on the first day of the lunar month.


The moon seen on the last day at daytime under certain circumstances such as solar eclipse and Hilaal that is seen miraculously before or after noon on such occasions is not for that day but for the following day which will be the first day of the month. If it happens in Ramadan one need not break the fast because that day belongs to Ramadan. From
this it is clearly known that a solar eclipse marks the end of the lunar month and next day belongs to the new month.


A solar eclipse occurs only on the day of conjunction. So, the criterion for calculating the lunar month is 'conjunction' or new moon which can be accurately calculated by astronomical rules. This will give us the true lunar dates and months.


When the months are calculated by 'Imkane ru'uya' criterion, the measure of the months is changed. The dates which must tally with phases of the moon do not go with phases (2:189). Allah SWT has fixed the months, some as 29 and some as 30 days on the very day of creation. (9:36). The Imkaane ru'uya method changes months of 29 into 30. No one has a right to interfere in the Nizam of Allah SWT.


Changing the months of 29 as 30 is Haram and comes under Nasie (9:37). For example last year 1429H fasting began in Haramain on the 2nd of Ramadan! The first day was neglected. Fortunately, The Eidul Fitre was observed on the right day. Again the Arafa was observed on the wrong day! How can we say that we do not know calculations? All this happens because of the defects in the calendar. All of a sudden the date is changed according to the whims of the people. Others are made to believe that Islam is not practical now and this prevent them from embracing Islam!


Allah SWT has entrusted the change of dates with the moon. Clouds or people have no right to change the fixed dates of Allah SWT. Ramadan 1430 H begins on Friday according to Nizam of Allah SWT, but the present Ummul Qura calendar puts it as on Saturday. According to the phases and stages of the moon Ramadan 1430 begins on Friday and ends on Friday (29 days) and Eidul fitre falls on Saturday.


Zul Hijjah 1430 begins on Tuesday. These could be verified with naked eye observation of the Ahillah and Manaazil of the moon. But the present Ummul Qura puts it on Wednesday!


Such serious mistakes which mislead the people are found in the present Ummul Qura calendar. Printing and publishing true lunar calendars based on the Quran and Sunnah is the need of the hour. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia should take the lead first and then Insha Allah others will follow. May Allah bless us all and lead us to the Truth!


The root cause of the present confusion in the Islamic dates is the misunderstanding of the Quran and Hadees.


The Quranic Ayaths 2: 183 to189, 9:36,37, 10:5, 36:37 to 40, 55:5 and other related ayaths, which deal with the calendar need thorough examination and appropriate interpretation of the Ulema.

The misinterpreted Hadhees regarding the Hilaal : #1


وقال عبد الرزاق، عن عبد العزيز بن أبي رَوّاد، عن نافع، عن ابن عمر قال:
قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: "جعل الله الأهلة مواقيت للناس فصوموا
لرؤيته وأفطروا لرؤيته، فإن غم عليكم فَعُدُّوا ثلاثين يومًا".


'Soomoo li ru'uyathihi wa afthiroo li ru'uyahihi fa'in gumma alaikum fa uddoo salaaseena youman'.


This Hadhees has been reported from many sources and people without knowledge in the subject believe that the month begins after seeing the Hilaal. They interpreted it as 'Begin fasting when you see the Hilaal and end fasting when you see it again and if it is clouded you count the month as 30 days'.


This interpretation may look as if it is a very convenient and easy method of fixing the lunar months. Islam is easy to practice and beginning Ramadan when you see Hilaal and ending it when you see it again and if it is clouded counting the month as 30 days may appear to be very easy and practical.


'Fa'in gumma alaikum' means if it became difficult and doubtful. The translation 'clouded' will license people to make it 30 whenever it is clouded and this is contrary to Quran and Sunnah. The Prophet SAW warned: The month is 29 so do not fast without consulting the Hilaal and do not observe Eidul Fitre without seeing it, but if it became difficult and doubtful complete 30 days.


Let us see what happens when we begin fasting after seeing the Hilaal. The ayaths of the Quran and the Ahadhees which explain this tells another story.


"Soomoo li ru'uyathihi….." is a portion of the Hadhees which explains the verse 2:189, "Yas'aloonaka anil Ahillathi qul hiya mawaakeethu linnasi wal hajji", meaning "They ask you about the phases of the moon, tell them they are dates for the people and Hajj". Thafseer Ibn Kathir explains quoting the Hadhees "Ja'alallahul ahillatha mawaakeetha linnasi fa soomoo li ru'uyathihi wa afthiroo li ru'uyathihi, fa'in gumma alaikum fa uddoo salaaseena youman". "Allah has appointed phases of the moon as dates for the people, so fast according to its view and celebrate Eidul Fitre according to its view and if it became doubtful for you then count the month as 30 days. This is a very clear explanation regarding phases of the moon and lunar dates depicted by them. But some people who have no idea about the moon phase, the moon age, moon's manaazil etc have mistaken Ahillah for Hilaals which are seen to the naked eye on the first day of every month. They believe that Ramadan begins when they see it without worrying whether Hilaal they saw was the first , second or third according to the height and size of the crescent. They do not realize that the word 'Hilaal' itself is not used in this Hadhees and in the Quran as well.


Quran which came to lead people from darkness to light will not lead them to darkness. We can see how Dr. Qaradawi explains this Hadhees. He says: "In the language of the faqeeh, we might say that the hadith both indicates an objective and specific means for achieving it. The objective in the hadith is clear, to fast the entire month of Ramadan
without missing a single day, or without fasting in a month other than Ramadan, like Sha'ban or Shawwal. And that is to take place through ascertaining the beginning of the new month, and the end of the old one, by any means possible, so long as such means are available to the general populace without causing them hardship or difficulty in their religion."


So it is very clear that compulsory fasting must be in Ramadan only. Ramadan is the 9th month of the Islamic calendar. Ramadan cannot begin on two or three days. It will begin only on one day. In all calendars a month begins only on one day.


The first of Ramadan of 1430H should be Friday for all people. It should not be Saturday for some people and Sunday for some others in the world. This condition will be created if everyone began Ramadan according to his sighting of the Hilaal. The Prophet SAW ordered us to fast when the people fast. It is a ritual performed all together beginning in one day and ending in one day. Fasting on the day of feasting is Haraam in Shariah. Then how can the people in the world do it on two or three days? It will be wrong and ignorance which is contrary to the spirit of Islam, which has no crookedness.


Therefore "Soomoo li ru'uyathihi…." does not mean that we should begin fasting whenever we see the hilaal and end fasting whenever we see it again as generally believed.


What is the meaning of Ahillah and how is it important for the dates ("Mawaakeeethu linnaasi wal hajj")?


Quran translated in different languages render "Ahillah" as 'new moons'. I have examined Quran translations in eight languages. All give the same meaning. Ahillah does not mean 'new moons' even though it is the plural of Hilaal. Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Kurtubi etc give clear explanation. People wanted to know how the moon waned and waxed and
they asked the Prophet SAW about it. It is clearly known from this that they did not ask about the Hilaals seen on the first day of every month. They asked how the moon waned and waxed. Allah SWT ordered the Prophet SAW to tell them the purpose behind it. So he SAW tells them they are dates for people and Hajj. People need dates to record and
plan their activities of daily life. They were not a community like us using paper and pen. Very few of them knew that art. So their dates were not in calendars as we have today. They looked at the moon for their date. Their true calendar was hung in the sky while our false calendars decorate our walls deceiving us in our dates.


The Mufassireen say that Quran should be interpreted from Quran. One ayath explains the other. So we should look into Quran, not into man-made dictionaries for understanding the meanings of the words used in the Quran.


The word 'Ahillah' is used in Quran

[porus]

I recieved an e-mail recently which is very relevant to the current debate on this thread :-

I am forwarding this attachment - My visit to Saudi Arabia written by Mr. Ali Manikfan of Minicoy Island, Chief Advisor of Hijri Committee of India.

Thank you brother GM for posting the e-mail.

Let us discount his slavish overture to the Saudi King and bigotry (there were no Shia as we now know them during the caliphate of Umar).

The revered Guardian of the Holy cities, His Majesty King Abullah, may Allah protect him is responsible to call for the unification of the dates of the Islamic calendar.

Why revered and why him? Aren't we all responsible?

Their demand that month should begin after people see the Hilaal with the naked eye is contrary to Quran and Sunnah. This sort of demand was raised by the Shia during the regime of Omar RA

Really?

They (Ottomans) changed the first date of the Hijra calendar which was actually a Thursday into Friday before they discarded it. Allah SWT took away the Khilafat from them

A bigoted judgment!

Otherwise, he makes an interesting reading and supports the view I have been expressing that the crescent one sees does not actually begin the lunar month. Prophet's hadith is true in one respect. A lunar month cannot exceed 30 days.

The most relevant quote in the email is from Dr Qaradawi elucidating the hadith and which actually supports the Bohra Misri calendar.

"... the hadith both indicates an objective and specific means for achieving it. The objective in the hadith is clear, to fast the entire month of Ramadan without missing a single day, or without fasting in a month other than Ramadan, like Sha'ban or Shawwal. And that is to take place through ascertaining the beginning of the new month, and the end of the old one, by any means possible, so long as such means are available to the general populace without causing them hardship or difficulty in their religion."

anajmi,

The reason I reject the hadith about Muhammad following a traveler's advice is that it gives license to Muslims to blindly follow someone other than Allah and His Prophet. I have to assume that Prophet only followed the Quran.

So, what is your comment on GM's email?

[Muslim First]

Month is 29 or 30 Days
http://moonsighting.com/faq_ms.html#Calendar

Question: Is there a pattern of sequence of 29 and 30 days month? Some people say that after 19 years moon phases repeat. Some others say that after 30 years moon cycle repeats. (Nov 11,1997)
Answer: After careful scrutiny of long term calculations of moon cycles we found that, in fact, there is no pattern. We have checked 4000 years of calculations i.e. 48000 months and found no pattern. The 19 year cycle of Gregorian year (equal to 228 months in Gregorian Calendar), is a cycle after which the moon phases roughly repeat. Remember the word ROUGHLY, NOT EXACTLY, an hence 228 Gregorian months (or 6940 days) are approximately equal to 235 lunar months (19 years and 7 month in Lunar Calendar). Similarly 30 lunar years (10631 days) are approximately equal to 29 years and 1 month of solar calendar, but again this is also APPROXIMATE. Long term calculations based on this rule sometimes gives results that are wrong by one day. Some others have pointed a cycle of 210 lunar years, and it has the same flaw as 30 year cycle. In short, there is no pattern that can be quoted exactly repeating.

6.3 Question: Can we achieve a global Islamic calendar that could unite the whole world for same dates for the beginning of every Islamic month?
Answer: If sighting is required we cannot have Global Islamic Calendar. To achieve a pre-calculated Global Islamic Calendar, if Ulemaa of the world accept the need for it, a suggested convention could be to make Makkah a convention point, where if the moon is born before sunset, the month begins after sunset, and if the moon is born after sunset then the month begins the following evening. This would require two calculations; 1) New Moon Birth, and 2) Sunset in Makkah on that date.

A preferrable convention could be that if the moon is born before 12:00 UT, then the month begins at sunset of that day everywhere in the world. This requires only the calculation of new moon birth, which is well known. This convention has a strong basis of the visibility that somewhere on the globe the moon would be definitely visible given clear horizon, because the age of the moon would be 18 hours at sunset on a point just to the east of the International dateline if the moon birth took place before 12:00 UT. Astronomers agree that an 18 hour moon is visible (in some instances it may not be seen by the naked eye but with telescope it can be seen). This known scientific fact can be made the basis which has sighting requirement according to Qur'an and Sunnah, and then all the disagreements about when and where the month starts would go away.

6.4 Question: Is it possible to have several consecutive months of 29 days and to have several consecutive months of 30 days and what is the highest possible number? (Dec 30, 1998)

Answer: Yes, according to calculations of moonsighting, up to three consecutive months of 29 days and up to four consecutive months of 30 days are possible, if sighting is limited to one location and not a big country. This is nothing unusual. This happens quite often. By actual observations, 4 consecutive days of 29 days would be possible, if for some (like clouds) reason, a sightable moon is not visible in one month, and next four months the moon is visible in different parts of one big country on the 29th day.

6.5 Question: Is it possible according to the calculations that the month be 30 days in the northern hemisphere and 29 days in the southern and vice versa? (Dec 30, 1998)

Answer: Yes. Also the calculations prove the fact that at any location on earth, the moon becomes visible either on the 29 day, or on the 30th day counted from the visibility of the previous crescent from the same place.

6.6 Question: Is it true that if we rely on local moonsighting, then a month may end up in 28 days? If yes, then does that not prove that local moonsighting is not the best solution?

Answer: Yes, it is true that if we rely on local moonsighting, then a month may end up in 28 days. Here is the reason why. If two months successively are such that they both are destined to have 29 days [by the decree of Allah (swt)], and in the first month clouds make the visible moon invisible, and we count 30 days to start the month. In the second month moon will be visible on 28th day, instead of 29th. This is also in line with the Ittihadul-Matale' concept

[anajmi]

porus,

Fortunately, I am completely on board with having a unified method of determining the new moon. Over here, I have been trying to determine what the prophet (saw) did during his time. Did the prophet (saw) sight the new moon to begin a month or not? I do not think anyone will dispute that he did. So the months during the time of the prophet (saw) began a day or two after the bohra month begins. Has the prophet (saw) allowed 29 days as well as 30 days in the month of Ramadan? Yes he has. Was the prophet (saw) still following the Quran?

[anajmi]

The reason I reject the hadith about Muhammad following a traveler's advice is that it gives license to Muslims to blindly follow someone other than Allah and His Prophet. I have to assume that Prophet only followed the Quran.

I completely disagree with the above statement. Shias claim that the prophet (saw) often sought Hazrat Ali's advise in matters. Can we say that we should reject this shia claim because it now gives the shias the license to blindly follow someone other than Allah and his prophet?

[anajmi]

The prophet (saw) didn't say that I and only I can see the moon and no one else. He has asked us to see the moon. Based upon this hadith, which I and the rest of the muslim world, other than a small percentage, consider authentic, the Ulema have determined that it is ok to trust the moon sighting of someone who is known to be a good muslim. The problem we have today is that lack of that trust. Masjids in adjacent streets do not trust each other and that is the reason why we have these discrepancies. If we were to trust each other more, a lot of the differences, and variations in Eid determination, would vanish.

[porus]

Shias claim that the prophet (saw) often sought Hazrat Ali's advise in matters. Can we say that we should reject this shia claim because it now gives the shias the license to blindly follow someone other than Allah and his prophet?

It is ok for Muhammad to seek advice from ahlul bayt, as I define the term. The precedent this sets for the Shia is that they should follow the rightful Imam. And Muhammd said that much explicitly at Ghadeer e Khum.

Over here, I have been trying to determine what the prophet (saw) did during his time. Did the prophet (saw) sight the new moon to begin a month or not? I do not think anyone will dispute that he did. So the months during the time of the prophet (saw) began a day or two after the bohra month begins. Has the prophet (saw) allowed 29 days as well as 30 days in the month of Ramadan? Yes he has. Was the prophet (saw) still following the Quran?

Unless Prophet had special 'sight' he did not see the new moon because that is not visible. He saw a crescent which means that if he started his month upon sighting the crescent, it would have been late by a day or two. We may agree that he saw the crescent to start his month but he also left us the Quran and our current knowledge gives us the means to follow the Quran more accurately. (Read GM's email)

Whether Prophet 'allowed' 29 and also 30 days is not relevant to the issue. As I have explained, a lunar month is 29.53 days, which comes to about 59 days every two months. So, very reasonably, 29 days are assigned to one month and 30 days to another for every pair of months. Thus, Prophet really had no choice in the matter

Since we can now predict new moon, as opposed to unpredictable 'visible' crescent, we can calculate when Ramadan should start. Once Ramadan starts, we know that there will be 30 sunrises in the month. However the last day of Ramadan may occasionally see the rise of new moon during the daytime.

The other alternative, to arbitrarily assign 29 days to Ramadan, will not work as there are actually 29.53 days in the month. And you would miss the fajr namaaz in the sate of fast.

You should read what GM posted carefully.