Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

[anajmi]

The Quran wasn't written by the prophet (saw). It is Allah's word. It is uncorrupt because Allah has promised to keep it that way in the Quran and has nothing to do with the prophet (saw) being error less.

[Doctor]

The Quran wasn't written by the prophet (saw). It is Allah's word. It is uncorrupt because Allah has promised to keep it that way in the Quran and has nothing to do with the prophet (saw) being error less.

Prophet Mohammed (a) has delivered/reveled it without error. If he was prone to errors then he could have made mistakes in delivery but he didn't.

[anajmi]

How do you know if the prophet (saw) has delivered the Quran without errors? Do you have the original to compare it with?

[porus]

How do you know if the prophet (saw) has delivered the Quran without errors? Do you have the original to compare it with?

Muslims believe that Quran is from Allah. Allah claims in 4:82

أَفَلا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِنْدِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُوا فِيهِ اخْتِلافًا كَثِيرًا

that if it (the Quran) was from other than Allah, there would be errors in it and we all know that Allah has promised to preserve the Quran. Thus a Muslim accepts without question that the Quran we have is without errors. Since it was delivered by Muhammad, then it follows that Muhammad delivered it free of error.

Another ayat of the Quran states that there is "no doubt in it" (la rayba fi-hi) at all.

Thus questioning Prophet's accuracy in delivering the Quran is a display of lack of faith.

[anajmi]

Anyone who claims that the Quran is error free because of the prophet is wrong. The Quran is error free because that is Allah's promise. The corruption of the Bible and the Taurat is not because Jesus and Moses were error prone and didn't deliver their respective messages correctly! I hope we can make that distinction otherwise we are falling deeper into the human worshipping abyss.

[anajmi]

I asked a simple question. How do we know that the prophet (saw) delivered the Quran error free? The answer is not - The prophet (saw) is error free and that is why the Quran is error free. If that were the answer, then we would need to know what the original looked like.

The answer is

that if it (the Quran) was from other than Allah, there would be errors in it and we all know that Allah has promised to preserve the Quran.

which is what I had stated originally. Allah could've chosen JK Rowling to deliver the message and it would still be error free. The difference being the life of the prophet (saw) as per such unflinching adherence to the commands of the Quran that Allah made it a part of Islam to follow the acts of the prophet (saw). The Quran is preserved by Allah and how to follow it is preserved by the acts of the prophet (saw).

[porus]

which is what I had stated originally. Allah could've chosen JK Rowling to deliver the message and it would still be error free.

No. Allah cleansed Prophet of all errors and only then used him to transmit the Quran. Otherwise Allah could not have guaranteed that Quran is error-free. And that is so for all the messengers of the scriptures. They were cleansed before being charged with conveying the message free of error.

It is a Muslim's belief that the Quran was completed in its present arrangement by Prophet himself.

The issue with the scriptures of Ahlul Kitaab is that they were not completed by their messengers in their lifetimes, and hence we cannot be certain if they are in their original form.

[anajmi]

Allah cleansed Prophet of all errors and only then used him to transmit the Quran.

And why would it not be possible for Allah to similarly clean JK Rowling?

Otherwise, I would have to say that Allah cleansed Hazrat Umar and Hazrat Uthman and made them error free similarly because without their work we wouldn't have the Quran in the form that we have today and it may even have been lost forever. Infact, I would have to say that every printing press on earth and every person who writes or makes the scales for printing the Quran by hand has to be made error free by Allah before they can print or write the Quran.

[porus]

It is a matter of belief, a voluntary fiat of mind for the person who wishes to use his brain.

No one can prove that Allah cleansed Muhammad, made him His messenger and that or that Quran is from Allah.

And no one can prove that Allah exists and that He is not the product of a medieval Arab's fertile imagination.

However, if you accept the hypothesis that Allah exists, cleansed Muhammad and made him the medium for conveying the Quran, then we can proceed with their consequences.

If Muhammad had not completed the Quran in his lifetime, then it follows that Umar and Uthman would not have been able to play their part in preserving it. Uthman, especially, is guilty of ordering destruction of variants of the Quran approved by Prophet himself in accordance with his desire to have a single version.

And who gave you your first copy of the Quran? Your dad? Was he cleansed by Allah too?

[Doctor]

How do you know if the prophet (saw) has delivered the Quran without errors? Do you have the original to compare it with?

How do you know if the prophet (saw) has delivered the Quran with errors? Do you have the original to compare it with?

[anajmi]

Uthman, especially, is guilty of ordering destruction of variants of the Quran approved by Prophet himself

So in other words you are saying that we have already lost what was supposed to have been delivered by the prophet (saw). Which in turn would mean that the prophet (saw) was not thoroughly cleansed. Not my words but your own!!

And who gave you your first copy of the Quran? Your dad? Was he cleansed by Allah too?

Well, according to your interpretations, he would have to be!!

How do you know if the prophet (saw) has delivered the Quran with errors? Do you have the original to compare it with?

I do not have the original but I believe in Allah's promise in the Quran.

Let me repeat, the fact that the Quran has been preserved as revealed has nothing to do with the messenger, because he is no longer there to ensure it's accuracy, and everything to do with the promise of the Author Himself.

[Doctor]

How do you know if the prophet (saw) has delivered the Quran with errors? Do you have the original to compare it with?

I do not have the original but I believe in Allah's promise in the Quran.

Allah message was delivered VIA Prophet Mohammed (a) and not directly by Allah to humans.

It is not Allah who directly said to humans but it is Prophet Mohammed (a) who has said, that Allah has said, that Allah will preserve the message of Quran - how can you guarantee that this very statement was delivered by Prophet Mohammed (a) without errors?

To conclude Quran is error free, which indeed it is- the logical inference will be Prophet Mohammed(a), who delivered/revealed Quran has to be error free.

[anajmi]

how can you guarantee that this very statement was delivered by Prophet Mohammed (a) without errors?

According to porus

Another ayat of the Quran states that there is "no doubt in it" (la rayba fi-hi) at all.

I cannot guarantee any ayah of the Quran was delivered by prophet Mohammed (saw) without errors. That is the point I am trying to make. I can only guarantee the word of Allah. Which means that if the prophet (saw) had made any errors in delivering it, Allah has corrected it. I do not have to rely on the accuracy of the messenger. Only on the Author himself.

[porus]

anajmi,

I will let you in on a secret. Allah, CEO of medieval Federal Express, gave the complete Quran bound in leather to Muhammad, your medieval day to day Federal Express Delivery man, to bring the Quran to you. Just like your modern day Federal Express delivery man, Muhammad had no business being cleansed by Allah. Allah just chose one of a number of honest men to employ for delivery.

Forget Muhammad and sing Hallelujah for Uthman who made sure you got your copy after so many years. I mean it could have been any delivery man not just Muhammad but the important thing is that Uthman, aided by our illustrious Umar, made sure that you got it directly from Allah.

[anajmi]

Remember, according to shia interpretation of the Quran, Allah has revealed a surah addressing an act of Hazrat Uthman that he did not like. This was the process of Allah cleansing him. Allah corrected him when he frowned on a poor bedouin, you think Allah would let him play with His words? Hence according to shia interpretation, Hazrat Uthman was thoroughly cleansed and is error free.

Also a lack of understanding in the process of delivery of the Quran comes into the picture. See, the prophet (saw) didn't have to memorize the Quran like we do it today. If that were the case, then we would've had more reason to doubt the accuracy of the Quran and the cleansing of the prophet (saw) would've become a bigger criteria. But as traditions suggest, the Quran was delivered directly to the heart of the prophet (saw) by Jibraeel (as). He could recite it from memory as soon as he received it. It was etched upon his heart (metaphorically speaking).

Let me repeat something that I had said earlier

The difference being the life of the prophet (saw) as per such unflinching adherence to the commands of the Quran that Allah made it a part of Islam to follow the acts of the prophet (saw). The Quran is preserved by Allah and how to follow it is preserved by the acts of the prophet (saw).

This distinction has not been accorded to any khalifa or Imam after the prophet (saw).

More homework for the two of you.

[Doctor]

Prophet Nooah (a) urged his son to embark on Nooh's ark otherwise he will drown in flood water. Haam said, I will climb on tallest mountain, it will save me. Haam climbed up, so did water; he climbed up to the peak and so did flood water. Nooah (a) invited again, but in vain. Water came up to his neck. Nooh again invited him to ark, but he still rejected. Has not Haam understood that the God of his father was true and not his own God? Haam did understood and knew whose God was true but still didn't embarked on Nooh's ark because there was hatred in his heart for Nooh God, his sinister thoughts were: I will choose to die and be destroyed but I will not love and accept Nooh God and ark.

Anajmi is like Haam (L). Deep in his heart Anajmi knows his Wahabi/Sunni faith has categorically been proven untrue in light of Quran 2:184 and Prophet Mohammed (a) has to be error free to revel error free Quran, but like Haam; Anajmi has so intensive hate for DB that he choose to die and get destroyed but he will never love truth (Dawoodi Bohras).

Yazeed brainwashed Muslim ibn Akba (L), likewise, "Kath Mullas" of Wahabi & Yazeed lovers have brain washed Anajmi. Now Anajmi is contending: Prophet Mohammed (a) is prone to errors. Mazallah.

[anajmi]

Meaning of Arabic word "Bohra" is: the follower of middle path.

And meaning of Dawoodi Bohra is "Deviant Bohra" far away from the middle path. Deep down Doctor knows that he has been hammered so many times because of his illogical arguments but he is like Yazeed who keeps arguing against the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw) and hence he twists and turns the word of anajmi to prove his point. According to human worshippers, Allah's promise is not enough to safe guard the Quran and hence they need humans just like the pagans of mecca needed laat manaat and uzza. Allah has categorically taken the responsibility of safe guarding the Quran on himself without any human intervention but Doctor has denied those ayahs of the Quran.

[Doctor]

Meaning of Arabic word "Bohra" is: the follower of middle path.

And meaning of Dawoodi Bohra is "Deviant Bohra" far away from the middle path.

Meaning of "Dawoodi Bohras" is not "Deviant Bohras", except in your incorrect imagination (fools paradise).

[anajmi]

Yes, my research shows that meaning of Dawoodi Bohra is Deviant Bohra according to error free wahhabis mullahs.

[profastian]

Yes, my research shows that meaning of Dawoodi Bohra is Deviant Bohra according to error free wahhabis mullahs.

You mean the ones who wants you to suckle women's breasts???

[anajmi]

You obviously know them well. I guess you guys go out for dinner together eh?

[Ala maqaam]

personality of anajmi can be explained in following gujrati proverb

"naago chano waage ghano"

ROFL

[anajmi]

Here is my favorite saying

naago Ala nache ghano
youtube joi joi ne ghelo bano

ROFL FOCL

[DMY]

Here is my favorite saying

naago Ala nache ghano
youtube joi joi ne ghelo bano

ROFL FOCL

Boom

You should place this in the thread of Humorous quotes by PDB members

[Ala maqaam]

ROFL
I missed that part,so IGNORE button works for real hahahaha