Marriage to Sunnis

[hurat]

I have searched this site quite thoroughly but I couldn't find any thing to help me with my dilemma.

My cousin, she wants to get married to a sunni.

I was wondering if anyone here knows of someone, or if they them selves got married outside the bohri sect. I would really appreciate it if you tell us about your experience and what you or your family went through.

Our family if a firm beliver of Aqa Maula, and while my cousin doesn't agree with all that is taught by him, she doesnt want her family to suffer a lot because of her decision.

Thank you.

If you dont want to share your story with the rest of the public...you could mail me at: hurat449@yahoo.com

Your help would be really appreciated!

[SakinaUK]

Salaam sister, i was in the same situation a number of years ago.
My now Sunni husband agreed to perform Misaaq in order for the nikha to go ahead. My parents were not overjoyed but supported me nethertheless. Despite assurances from my community that once performed he would be welcomed with open arms, the reality was a shock. Not only was he shunned, it affected my family (and some friend's) in a huge way. People avoided our family like the plague.
I had no wish to cause shame on our family. After 3months marriage our family had basically been ostricised from the bohra community.
My husband had severed many ties with his sunni family due to his performing the misaaq. We had nowhere to go but at least we were together.
We now live far from all our loved ones. Sometimes the pain is unbearable, esp when i think of the sacrifices we went to due to our love for Syedena.
Are lives are now slowly recovering. I know not how long it will take to forgive certain people.

[Muslim First]

.

Sister SakinaUK

AS

I feel pity for your poor husband that poor guy was willing to commit SHIRK for the sake of Love.

I have a son and I teach him at every opportunity not to do anything which will hurt his or her parents and cut relationship with your Keith and keens.

Congretulations and may Allah give all of us tru guidance.

[GodBless]

A family member went through this process and was quite painless. The razaa took quite a while though. He had to take the misaaq, but here are two things to be prepared for which came as a surprise. First, his name was changed without his prior knowledge even though he has an acceptable Bohra name. Second, he was solicited shortly thereafter for some large sums of money for a certain perk for the royal family (in the mid 5 figures in US $)He declined and they were fine with it. Now I am assuming that this happens if they know you have money, which he does.

He has been treated well by the jamaat (in the West). Hope this helps.

..and please if someone jumps in and asks me for proof, I have it and will not provide it for obvious reasons and to maintain anonymity.

[qiyam]

Dear SakinaUK,
I would point out one thing that seemed very shocking to me. During your entire story, you and your husband (and indeed it seems your family) did the right thing. So if the community essentially ostericized you...why??

I know at least three christians (let alone many ithna asharis and sunnis) who took the mithaq for marriage..and they are better practicioners of the mithaq that those who originally had it. You see if in fact you and your husband did the right things...your jam'at is in the wrong.

A clear identifier is your own statement:
Sometimes the pain is unbearable, esp when i think of the sacrifices we went to due to our love for Syedena.

I do know from personal experience (even my own parents) that in smaller towns in India are very biased against marrying outside the bohra community...even if the mithaq is taken. This is the result of lack of knowledge of the principles of the faith and ignorance.

[MOHD HUSSAIN]

Br Qiyam: You wrote--"I do know from personal experience (even my own parents) that in smaller towns in India are very biased against marrying outside the bohra community...even if the mithaq is taken. This is the result of lack of knowledge of the principles of the faith and ignorance." _______So who is responsible for this lack of knowledge? Right from the leader down to the amils & mullas!It is time that part of the Vaez be dedicated to such topics instead of the nonsensical mataams most of the time!

[qiyam]

Dear Mhd. Hussain,
"So who is responsible for this lack of knowledge? Right from the leader down to the amils & mullas!It is time that part of the Vaez be dedicated to such topics instead of the nonsensical mataams most of the time!"

--It is a social ignorance...not a thelogical one. If it was theological...the mithaq would have never been taken. It doesn't matter what race, national or whatever you are...one your in the fold your part of the ummah. Socially it is different...and this is not limited to bohras. In my city there are three sunni mosques..one is indo/pakistani, one is african, one is arab. Anyone can attend...but the welcoming of other ethnicities is underlyingly unaccepted. Even in the ithna asharis...there are khoja, iranian, african, arab, afghani cultures that discourage mixing.

[Muslim First]

.

br qiyam

what are you babaling?

If you go to any sunni or Ithan Ahari mosque jut to pray then nobody bothers you. I have gone to a mosque where I did not speak their language. I have attended Vaaz during Muharram at I.A. Mosque.

Any sect which has no open door policy should ask them a question " In allah's house what are they hiding?"

What are Bohrs Hiding?

Wasalaam

.

[qiyam]

Dear MuslimFirst,
I was refering to marriage and the community interaction...not going for prayers. Like I stated...this has nothing to do with Bohra faith or teachings...it is a ethnic sigma. It is hardly prevailant in major cities in India or Pakistan..nor in the western countries..but more so in smaller towns. Some communities are ignorant of other ethnicities or even other sects coming into the family...thus creating a social stigma. This has nothing to do with religion...but the people make religion as the scapegoat. All this happens outside the masjid.

[ponga bhori]

MF

What are they hidding???
EVERYTHING...their Imam, the Batin Mazooms and Mukasirs.
All that they do not hide is their women for Moulana to enjoy.

Enjoy.

[porus]

It is an unfortunate truth that mixing of Muslim communities just does not take place because that has been the case from the way back. This extends to places all over the world.

I know of Bohras and Memons living in flats (apartments) in a single building in Bhindi Bazaar and Memonwada who will not go on picnic outings together. Bohras go with Bohras and Memons with Memons. When I asked why, the reply was always "ae loko ne aapna sathe majaa na aawe".

This lack of mixing extends to most gatherings of South Asians, including namaaz.

Bohras do not encourage outsiders to marry within their community nor do they welcome them into their majlises and namaaz. They just do not feel comfortable. However, they will welcome friendly individuals brought by friends.

Bohras do not have much to hide. I have met some who have supposedly achieved a high station of "spirituality" in the community. I could not identify anything I would consider spiritual in them except their devotion to the "Family". First thing a spiritual person would do is to stop cursing. This is why I seriously doubt whether the "Family" is spiritual.

They say their knowledge is hidden in their "kitaabs". Much like "Quraan Saamit". Sayedna's life is expression of all knowledge. What do we see? Maatam, cursing, incessant travelling to Western world, unsavoury political connections etc. Is this "spritual", I ask.

[qiyam]

Dear Porus,
While I agree with most of your post the last I didn't understand...how it fits in..or was it just a cheap shot.

They say their knowledge is hidden in their "kitaabs". Much like "Quraan Saamit". Sayedna's life is expression of all knowledge. What do we see? Maatam, cursing, incessant travelling to Western world, unsavoury political connections etc. Is this "spritual", I ask.

Maatam...an expression performs by all shiahs to show allegiance and love for the Imam.

Cursing on those companions who opposed the Prophet's words and the ahlul bayt.

Travelling to western world and eastern world to the various jamat throughout the world so that his followers may learn from him...and so they don't have to travel to him.

Unsavory political connections, much like Prophet, who made tied without opponents to make things easier for his followers.

[porus]

Maatam...an expression performs by all shiahs to show allegiance and love for the Imam.

A barbaric and almost pagan ritual. Is that the way to show love for Imam? How do you show love for your Dai, Prophet and Allah? By beating yourself up? Tch, tch!! Shias being taken for a questionable emotional ride by a contrived drama!!

And what do the followers learn? How to perform purjosh maatam? To keep them from straying from the path? Pointless to preach to the converted! It would make more sense if he took his message of maatam (and that is all it is these days) to Americans and British!!

[porus]

Unsavory political connections, much like Prophet, who made tied without opponents to make things easier for his followers

Reason we respect Husain?

Maybe he should have come to terms with Yazid to save the skins of the martyrs!!

[MOHD HUSSAIN]

Br Qiyam: You wrote-"Travelling to western world and eastern world to the various jamat throughout the world so that his followers may learn from him...and so they don't have to travel to him.

Unsavory political connections, much like Prophet, who made tied without opponents to make things easier for his followers. "
Do you seriously think Dai does all these to do a favor to mumins? Think again! Money laundering, Tax evasions, avoiding court summons & possible convictions! & ofcourse looting the mumins to get that needed foreign exchange!

[qiyam]

Dear Porus,
I thank you for your opinions.

Dear Mhd. Hussain,
As you well know...everything you described..

Money laundering, Tax evasions, avoiding court summons & possible convictions!

..can be easily done in India without living your home threshold. So now what was your point?

[Shayba]

dear muslim first,
shirk? do you mean to say that taking an oath of allegiance (mithaq) is an idolatrous act?
-shayba

[Muslim First]

.

Dear shayba

I am a sunni. So we do not take Mithak to anybody. If you are deeply spiritual and need a Ustaad Ulema to guide you to straight path then you may take Bayah of that Scholar.

It does not make a sence to pledge allegiance (mithaq) to a person who commits Shirk. One commits Shirk when one kisses somebody's feet or does Sujud to another person, or bows to Qabar or invokes somebody other then Allah (Ya Ali forexample).

Wasalaam

.

[Shayba]

as-salamu 'alaykum muslim first,
you are of course entitled to your opinion. however mithaq is not a shiite concept. sahih muslim hadith 4562: he who dies without baya on his neck dies the death of a jahiliyya man. i am aware that there are various interpretations to this hadith, but there are those sunnite muslims who understand it very much the same way that ismai'li-musta'ali-dawoodi-muslims understand mithaq. if you are familiar with mawlana rum (jalal ad-din rumi) then you may also be familiar with the following couplet: mawlvi har giz na shod mawla-e-rum, taa ghulam-e-shams at-tabriz na shod. trans.: mawlvi (rumi) could never have become mawlana rum without (his shaykh) shams at-tabriz. some orientalists have even postulated a homosexual relationship between rumi and his shaykh shams at-tabriz, that was the extent of his devotion. again, you are entitled to your opinion, but i think the idea that mithaq, or intercession for that matter, are shiite notions is a fallacy. gnostic sunnite communities would agree. the bohras are of course a gnostic community as well. by the way i am not bohra either.
as-salamu 'alaykum wa rahmat allah wa barakata hu

[Muslim First]

.

Br. Shayba

AS

Who did you give MITHAQ to? (If I may know)

Wasalaam

.

[Mr.Idris]

Dear MF,

Unlike Sunnis, Bohras don’t believe in shirk. Bohras believe that allah is Husamad. There are 5 basic mentalities of Sunnis.

1. Bukhari Parast Sunni: - These people believe that allah is 30 feet tall. When we convert some body to True Islam that is Bukhari Islam then allah will reword us with milk and dates. Allah will also give us 70 virgins to have sex with. So we should force other to convert so that we can have sex and eat dates.

Bohras Response:- We can find good quality of milk and date every where in Wall-Mart, so no need of waiting for so long. If we are just getting 70 vergin then what after they loose there virginity. So we don’t believe in 70 virgins. We believe that if we are helping other and trying to be better human we will go more close to Allah. For us even drinking milk and eating dates with virgin is like hell, closeness to god is heaven for us. We do not do shirk like Bukhari Parast sunnnis and limit the good to just 30 feet and 70 virgin. Our Allah is limitless.

[Mr.Idris]

Dear MF, the 2nd type is Ghazali purast sunnis

2. Ghazali Parast Sunnis: - They believe that Allah is sitting on the 7th heaven right above the Kaba. They believe that Allah is very limited. They also believe that Allah do not have any mercy. They believe that Allah is partial Allah. Allah do partiality towards Ghazali Parast Sunnis. Allah is only limited to their interpretation. Allah has no capacity to satisfy the brains of the scholars so taking education is wrong.

Bohras Response: - If Allah is right above the Kaba then Allah has to be satellite to revolve round the earth, as earth revolve and with it Kaba also revolves. So if some thing in the space needs to be with Kaba then it has to be like satellite revolving round the earth. Bohras don’t believe that Allah is satellite. Bohras believe that Allah is every where. Allah is in the heart of Bohras. Bohras don’t believe that Allah is partial. Bohras believe that Allah can satisfy all the brains. There are many ways to reach Allah. Bohras believe in taking education. Bohras believe that limiting Allah is Shirk as done by Ghazali Parast Sunnis. But Bohras believe that that is their interpretations and Bohras will not ask them to convert to bohra religion as god satisfies every brain differently.

[Mr.Idris]

Dear MF third type or sunnis are wahabies.

3. Wahabi Sunnis: - Wahabi Sunnis believe in the above two and believe that all type of education should be abolished. Women are devil. Allah did big mistake by giving women equal rights in the religions before islam and he rectified his mistakes in islam by degrading women. Women can not be leaders. They are not allowed go out of the home. They should be killed if seen with out nakab. Wahabies believe that if we are following these tenets we will get less rewards but if we are forcing others to follow these tenets then we will get more rewords. So Wahabis believe in forcing their tenets to other.

There is an offset of Wahabi sunnies they are known as Taliban or Talibani Sunnis. Talibani Sunnis are very similar to wahabis sunnis the only difference between them is talibani Sunnis believe that following the tenets and forcing others to follw the tenets, both deserve similar rewards that is why they killed women in Kashmir and they did all those to Afghanistan.

Bohras Response: - Bohras believe that Allah is for all world, Allah is not limited to just wahabies or just males. We also believe that in the eye of Allah all human beings are equal. We believe that it is shirk to think that Allah is unjust or partial or limited to just a sect. Allah is limitless. No time, space or brain can bind Allah. We believe that women are also human being and they should be treated equably. Allah never make mistakes. It is shirk for bohras to believe in the tenets of wahabies.

[Mr.Idris]

Dear MF, the 4th type is

Haqiqi Sunnis: - There are many kinds of Haqiqi Sunnis. They are called by different names in different places. Different names of Haqiqi Sunnis are moderates, Sufis, Mutazilites, etc. They do not believe in the tents of Wahabi Sunnis, Ghazali Sunnis or Bukhari Sunnis. They believe that Allah is great. Allah is limitless. Allah is just. Allah is full of mercy. Allah is not limited to one thought or one sect. Unlike the other three sects Haqiqi Sunnis believe that Islam mean peace and love. One human being should love the other and help them when they are in need irrespective or sect or creed. All human beings are equal. Intellect plays an important role in Islam, so education should not be banned. Evolving is the nature of religion, though Prophet Muhammad never used computer it is not wrong to use computers. Neither Muhammad nor Allah is racist. They believe that one can’t force any thing on others.
Allah is the true judge so we should not pass any judgment on others faith. According to Haqiqi Sunnis the tents of Wahabi Sunnis, Ghazali Sunnis and Bukhari Sunnis are full of shirk. But then this does not mean that Haqiqi Sunnis reject all Bukhari hadiths. They believe in reason based thinking.

Bohras Response: - Bohras agree with most of the tenets of Haqiqi Sunnis. Though Haqiqi Sunnis don’t believe in imamuzaman but at list they are not committing shirk like other Sunnis.

[Mr.Idris]

Dear MF, the 5th type is
Jahili Sunnis: - This type of Sunnis are the Sunnis who have no knowledge of religion. And they get impressed by above 4 times depending on time and situations.

[Shayba]

as-salamu 'alaykum,
mr. idrees, i haven't the slightest clue to what you're talking about. if it's not too much to ask, standard english would be nice. muslim first, i have not sworn fealty to anyone yet. insha' allah, i will find my shaykh soon enough. until then, to recount the dawoodi bohra legend of sayidduna 'iesa, i am searching for my imam (take note: i deliberately used a lower-case "i" to distinguish from the Imam).
-shayba

[Muslim First]

.

Br. Shayba

AS

You have private message fro me

Wasalaam

.

[Muslim First]

.

Br. Shayba

AS

sorry Ican't send you private message since private message button is not there for you.

Wish you luck in finding Sheikh who can guide you.

Wasalaam

.