Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada

[murtaza2152]

This is the page from Syedna Qazi Nomans Kitaab ul Himma, Where he allows Sujood to Imam and says Sujood to Imam is not same as Sujood to ALLAH,
SAJADA TO IMAM IS TAQRIMAN VA TAZIMAN, AND TAQBILUL ARD(KISING OF EARTH)...

Admin plz attach the image i have sent you.

[progpigs]

bro murtaza,

your doing a great job

[porus]

Murtaza,

Thank you for making the passage from Himma available.

I have some questions for you. Have you read the passage yourself?

If so, what does it say about sajda to anyone except Allah?

Does it say that sajda to Imam is in fact 'taqbeel al-ard bayna aydihim' (kissing of earth in front of him)? [This is the argument you have been making. Qazi Noman does not say that. Did your sabak teacher tell you that? Or did you read it yourself?]

What does the passage say about what the Prophet observed Abyssinians doing to their Kings. Did Prophet allow his followers to do the same?

My reading is that Qazi Noman does not allow sajda to Imam.

Abdes are told that sajda is wajib for Dai and they kiss his feet (qadambosi). Does Qazi Noman allow that? I submit to you that he does not.

If you disagree, point out the relevant sentences from the passage and give us your translation.

I will then offer you my translation for the whole passage.

[labbaikyaHussain]

Translation is required.

[murtaza2152]

@Porus,
I can read and understand it but am not too good in it,so cant do translation,but i will try to get it....

Porus cant you see in last 7th line ,,It is clearly written ,, وقال القاضي النعمان في كتاب "الهمة في آداب أتباع الأئمة
فينبغي لمن واجه الإمام عليه السلام أن يبدأ بالسلام عليه، ثم يقبل الارض بين يديه، ويعتقد ذلك تعظيماً له، وتقرباً إلى الله

Translation of above lines--
The judge said Naman in the book "Elan in the ethics of the followers of the imams": "The one who is faced Imam peace be upon him, to greet him, then kiss the ground between his hands, and believes that respect for it, and was close to God"

I have clearly stated many times, Sajada to Allah is not same as Sajada to Imam or Dai it is TAKRIMAN TAZIMAN TAQBILUL ARD (Written in KITAAB UL HIMMA above passage last 7th line ثم يقبل الارض بين يديه، ويعتقد ذلك تعظيماً له، وتقرباً إلى الله

Here we are not talking about Qadambosi,start a new thread i will give my comments there.

[progticide]

Bismillah hir Rehman nir Rahim

Remember when your Lord said to the angels, "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him then fall you down prostrating yourselves unto him." SO the angels prostrated themselves all of them together, except Iblis, he refused to be among the prostrators. Allah said: "O Iblis! What is your reason for not being among the prostrators?" Iblis said: "I am not the one to prostrate myself to a human being, whom You created from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud." Allah said: "Then get out from here for verily you are Rajim (an outcast or cursed one). Verily the curse shall be upon you till Day of Recompense (Day of Resurrection). (Ch 15:28-35 Quran).

During the period of Kashf, the Imam holds the rank, i.e he is the Adam of the age/era, while during the period of satr, the Imam delegates the authority to the Dai-e-Mutlaq. So the rank is held by the Dai, i.e the Dai is the Adam of the age/era.

So, anyone who has objection to the verse "Sajda tujhe wajib hai", think again.

[progpigs]

@progticide

Subhanallah..!! You have very well explained the importance of sajjda

subhanallah...!

[Hussain_KSA]

Brother Murtaza

I think this page is from some other book which has given the reference of book written by Syedna Qadi Noman.
I did not find the words which you quoted (وقال القاضي النعمان في كتاب "الهمة في آداب أتباع الأئمة) in above passage. Even if it would have been there that means it is reference from his book.
Translation is wrong. It seems that you have translated it from google translate which is not 100% correct .
I am not scholar so I don’t want to discuss on this matter. I don’t remember reading this passage in book written by Syedna Noman. However I can confirm the Qadi Noman has discussed the subject in said book.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Remember when your Lord said to the angels, "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him then fall you down prostrating yourselves unto him."

pesticide,

in adam's case it was allah who ordered the angels to do sajda to him, what is your justification for doing sajda to dai? has allah ordered that sajda should be done to a fallible dai?

some half-cracked lame-duck logic of substituting adam with imam and by default the dai? where do you get such insane theories from? the mafia who conspire to deceive and loot the community in the name of religion?

[porus]

the Dai is the Adam of the age/era.

What a revelation!

We now have two Adams alive. One is in hiding and one is 100 years old.

Was Rasullah also Adam? And Musa and Isa too? Damn it! Why doesn't the Quran say so? From which ayat can we draw this astounding taawil?

Pesticides and Pigs should confine their comments to Kitab al-himma. That would be too much to hope from their level of intelligence.

[porus]

Brother Murtaza

I think this page is from some other book which has given the reference of book written by Syedna Qadi Noman.
I did not find the words which you quoted (وقال القاضي النعمان في كتاب "الهمة في آداب أتباع الأئمة) in above passage. Even if it would have been there that means it is reference from his book.
Translation is wrong. It seems that you have translated it from google translate which is not 100% correct .
I am not scholar so I don’t want to discuss on this matter. I don’t remember reading this passage in book written by Syedna Noman. However I can confirm the Qadi Noman has discussed the subject in said book.

Murtaza,

Hussain_KSA has cast doubt on the authenticity of the passage. Could you confirm that it it is from Kitab al-himma.

[porus]

Porus cant you see in last 7th line ,,It is clearly written ,, وقال القاضي النعمان في كتاب "الهمة في آداب أتباع الأئمة
فينبغي لمن واجه الإمام عليه السلام أن يبدأ بالسلام عليه، ثم يقبل الارض بين يديه، ويعتقد ذلك تعظيماً له، وتقرباً إلى الله

Translation of above lines--
The judge said Naman in the book "Elan in the ethics of the followers of the imams": "The one who is faced Imam peace be upon him, to greet him, then kiss the ground between his hands, and believes that respect for it, and was close to God"

I have clearly stated many times, Sajada to Allah is not same as Sajada to Imam or Dai it is TAKRIMAN TAZIMAN TAQBILUL ARD (Written in KITAAB UL HIMMA above passage last 7th line ثم يقبل الارض بين يديه، ويعتقد ذلك تعظيماً له، وتقرباً إلى الله

Here we are not talking about Qadambosi,start a new thread i will give my comments there.

As Hussain_KSA pointed out, the Arabic line in black above is not in the original passage and it clearly could not have been because someone other than Qazi Noman is writing it. That sentence can be properly translated as:

Qazi Noman said in his book "Excellence in the manners for the followers of Imams"

The Arabic in red in this post can be translated as:

"It is incumbent upon whoever approaches the Imam (peace be upon him) that he begins by offering salutation (salaam) to him, then kiss the ground in front of him. And this is considered honoring him and being near to Allah."

Later in the passage, Qazi Noman(?) states that the person should wait before the Imam returns the salutation(salaam) before kissing the ground in front of him. Nowhere in the passage does Qazi Noman say that a person approaching Imam must do sujood to him.

In fact, in the passage, he says that Prophet forbade his followers to perform sajda to him.

(By the way, the word "takriman" does not appear in the passage)

[murtaza2152]

Brother Murtaza

I think this page is from some other book which has given the reference of book written by Syedna Qadi Noman.
I did not find the words which you quoted (وقال القاضي النعمان في كتاب "الهمة في آداب أتباع الأئمة) in above passage. Even if it would have been there that means it is reference from his book.
Translation is wrong. It seems that you have translated it from google translate which is not 100% correct .
I am not scholar so I don’t want to discuss on this matter. I don’t remember reading this passage in book written by Syedna Noman. However I can confirm the Qadi Noman has discussed the subject in said book.

I wrote this (وقال القاضي النعمان في كتاب "الهمة في آداب أتباع الأئمة),so it can be understood that the book is of Syedna Qazi Noman,,it is not in that book,,
But the above passage is from Kitaab ul Himma, page 104, Bab 8 ,Zikrul Aadab fissalam alal Aimmat,
I am giving first page of book so you can confirm it....Who has published it,,

Admin please attach image i have sent you.....

[murtaza2152]

My answers in red
Porus quoted
The Arabic in red in this post can be translated as:

فينبغي لمن واجه الإمام عليه السلام أن يبدأ بالسلام عليه، ثم يقبل الارض بين يديه، ويعتقد ذلك تعظيماً له، وتقرباً إلى الله

"It is incumbent upon whoever approaches the Imam (peace be upon him) that he begins by offering salutation (salaam) to him, then kiss the ground in front of him. And this is considered honoring him and being near to Allah."

So point is cleared,Sajada to Imam and Dai is Taqbilul Ard and Taziman va Taqriban ilalAlllah,,

(By the way, the word "takriman" does not appear in the passage)
Sory my mistake it is Taqriban ilalAlllah

Now ,do you think Syedna Qazi Noman did Shirk,,and he was a Mushriq.....Just as Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb.....

[anajmi]

"Syedna" Qazi Numan was a paid poet in the court of the Imam of that time. Just like we have paid poets writing poetry in the praise of the Dai so was Qazi Numan writing poetry in the praise of the Imam. If he mentioned that Sajda is only for Allah it is simply because he understood the Quran a little bit better than the bohras of today do. He asked people to do the next best thing!! If he has allowed Sajda, then he is no better than any other abde syedna mushrik!!

[porus]

So point is cleared,Sajada to Imam and Dai is Taqbilul Ard and Taziman va Taqriban ilalAlllah,,

No. What is clear is that kissing the ground is considered by Qazi Noman as being respectful of Imam. He implies that this is not sujood to Imam. As to kissing the ground, the sentence is ambiguous. Ground in front of Imam or the in front of the person approaching the Imam? Assuming that they are facing each other, the ground is the same. But it does not have to be.

Please read the first line of the passage "yatbaloona al-ard fi salaami-him bayna aydi-him....bi ma awjaba Allah lahum". They are consecrating the ground in front of them for their security.... as required of them by Allah" . In this sentence they are not honoring anyone. What is the purpose of stating this? It suggests that the ground between the Imam and the person is being made holy. It is like cleaning the house before inviting your guest in.

And why would Prophet forbid sajda to him, if he considered it simply to be an honor to him?

Please be intellectually honest and consider what Qazi Noman is saying. He does not display shirk in this passage but abdes clearly do. Sajda to anyone other than Allah is forbidden in the Quran and, in this passage, it is forbidden by the Prophet.

If you are looking for sanction to perform sajda to Dai and commit shirk, you will not find it in the passage you have provided.

[porus]

"Syedna" Qazi Numan was a paid poet in the court of the Imam of that time.

Actually he was a senior judge, Qazi.

[Muslim First]

Introduction to the Life and Works of Qazi Noaman
http://salmanspiritual.com/qazi_noaman/index.html

[anajmi]

Sorry, Qazi Numan was a senior judge paid to write praises of the Imam.

Being a senior judge makes it look that much worse for him!! A judge is supposed to have a higher authority than even the khalifa as is evidenced from incidents during the time of Hazrat Ali. I am sure we have all read them!!

[anajmi]

Sorry, Qazi Numan was a senior judge paid to write praises of the Imam.

Being a senior judge makes it look that much worse for him!! A judge is supposed to have a higher authority than even the khalifa as is evidenced from incidents during the time of Hazrat Ali. I am sure we have all read them!!

I have to add that my above argument applies only if Qazi Numan has asked for Sajda to the Imam, as we are still trying to figure out the meaning of what he has said.

[progpigs]

why are we arguin with the MUSHRIQ and MUNAFIQ who are made of FIRE (SHETAAN). They will never accept the truth nor our SYEDNA coz they are not meant to follow wallayat!!

If you guys are trying to open their eyes or shut their mouth so then jus forget it... its of no use!! coz they will keep stinking coz naturally they are born to do tht!!

[anajmi]

Accepting your Syedna is what will definitely make mushriks out of the rest of us.

[porus]

"It is incumbent upon whoever approaches the Imam (peace be upon him) that he begins by offering salutation (salaam) to him, then kiss the ground in front of him. And this is considered honoring him and being near to Allah."

I must add that this a recommendation by Qazi Noman and not a command from the Quran and it is not mandatory for any one. And Qazi Noman is not the Imam.

Secondly, Bohras do not kiss the ground before them when they approach the Dai. They actually perform sajda to him and kiss his feet. Qazi Noman does not say " tasjudoo lil-Imam thumma taqbiloo aqdaama-hu" (Perform sajda to Imam and then kiss his feet)

[progpigs]

@anajmi

yea so leav us with our SYEDNA!! we do shirk or wat ever non of ur concern!! WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE WAT WE ARE DOING???

ALLAH THE AL MIGTHY.. THE AL HAKIM will make a judgement on THE DAY OF JUDGMENT.. so until THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT comes.. you follow your path we will follow our path and our DAI leads our path!!

Dun giv out ur judgements and prove yourself like FIROON did!!!(Blvin himself over and above ALLAH) ... (ahh but a mushriq & munafiq cant help it.. its in their blood)

[murtaza2152]

No. What is clear is that kissing the ground is considered by Qazi Noman as being respectful of Imam. He implies that this is not sujood to Imam. As to kissing the ground, the sentence is ambiguous. Ground in front of Imam or the in front of the person approaching the Imam? Assuming that they are facing each other, the ground is the same. But it does not have to be.

Now you are using your interpretations,

Simple Logic, Qazi Noman says فينبغي لمن واجه الإمام عليه السلام أن يبدأ بالسلام عليه، ثم يقبل الارض بين يديه، ويعتقد ذلك تعظيماً له، وتقرباً إلى الله "The one who is faced Imam peace be upon him, to greet him, then kiss the ground between his hands, and believes that respect for it, and was close to God"

I also say its not Sujood as we do to Allah it is Taqbilul Ard (Kissing of Earth) to Dai ,Taziman va Taqriban ilalAlllah as Qazi Noman says in Himma..

[murtaza2152]

Murtaza,

That is just poetry and license is taken for much hyperbole. I would like you to present a doctrine and its origin in scholars of the past.

Aimmat Tahereen are ,They are in Maqam of Allah on Earth ,,
Do you believe that.....???

[progpigs]

ok my post is a bit out of discussion but i want to share something with my brothers and the munfiqs (reforms).. spclly ppl like AZ/JC/INSAF etc!!

Do not say, that if the people do good to us, we will do good to them; and if the people oppress us, we will oppress them; but determine that if people do you good, you will do good to them; and if they oppress you, you will not oppress them.’ - Prophet Mohammed

[Al Zulfiqar]

Aimmat Tahereen are ,They are in Maqam of Allah on Earth ,,

so according to this new cult of mushriks, how many Allah's are there? one in heavens, one on earth, one in the oceans, one underground, maybe one inside the volcanoes and deep caves etc????

so dai is one of those allah's, where are the other ones?

[murtaza2152]

You must have heard in Waaz of Mola tus, Imams words "Aasman ma nathi Magar Khuda,Ane Zamin ma nathi Magar Hame"

Murtaza,

That is just poetry and license is taken for much hyperbole. I would like you to present a doctrine and its origin in scholars of the past.

@Porus,
With refrences i am quoting this,
Aimmat Tahereen are ,They are in Maqam of Allah on Earth ,,
Do you believe that.....???

[murtaza2152]

"It is incumbent upon whoever approaches the Imam (peace be upon him) that he begins by offering salutation (salaam) to him, then kiss the ground in front of him. And this is considered honoring him and being near to Allah."

I must add that this a recommendation by Qazi Noman and not a command from the Quran and it is not mandatory for any one. And Qazi Noman is not the Imam.

Now you are giving your views,,,,, He says clear cut, THE SAJADA TO IMAM IS TAQBILUL ARD ,TAZIMAN TAKRIBAN ILALALLH
فينبغي لمن واجه الإمام عليه السلام أن يبدأ بالسلام عليه، ثم يقبل الارض بين يديه، ويعتقد ذلك تعظيماً له، وتقرباً إلى الله


Secondly, Bohras do not kiss the ground before them when they approach the Dai. They actually perform sajda to him and kiss his feet. Qazi Noman does not say " tasjudoo lil-Imam thumma taqbiloo aqdaama-hu" (Perform sajda to Imam and then kiss his feet)

This topic is not about kissing feet,,And also everytime we do not kiss feet, You must have seen in Waaz Sadatkiram performing Sajada...

You claimed Sajada not for anybody except Allah,,,, Qadi Noman contradicts your point ,as he says THE SAJADA TO IMAM IS TAQBILUL ARD ,
TAZIMAN TAKRIBAN ILALALLAH.