Dai Al Mutlaq is Masoom or is he ?

[asad]

We have come accross scams and embezzelment of money in tune of corores which was collected in the name of Dai. And culprits are either pardoned or transfered to more plum positions.

only one of the two can be true, Dais knows about this or he does not. If he knows and doesnt do any thing then he is party to corruption and if he doesnt know anything then he is not all knowing which he claims to be. Which will leave a big question mark on him being Masoom.

Answers from Die hard Abde's are solicited specially Adam/Profastian and their elk.

[asad]

To begin the argument, we all would like to know, whether the proggies believe the Imam to be infallible? If not, then the whole argument is pointless because if the imam is not infallible, then the DAI certainly would be not. I hope that some authentic proggies like Humsafar, insaaf, etc comment on it.

Profastian it was very ingenious of you to start another thread and ask us our belief like Adam. For a change why dont you start to answer what you believe.

[profastian]

To begin the argument, we all would like to know, whether the proggies believe the Imam to be infallible? If not, then the whole argument is pointless because if the imam is not infallible, then the DAI certainly would be not. I hope that some authentic proggies like Humsafar, insaaf, etc comment on it.

Profastian it was very ingenious of you to start another thread and ask us our belief like Adam. For a change why dont you start to answer what you believe.

I am surprised you still do no know what we believe in.
We believe in the unity of Allah. He is beyond description and comprehension. He sent 124,000 prophets primarily, for human kind to return to their true home (Jannah). Prophet Mohammad was the last of the Prophet. We believe in the absolute Adal of Allah. And it would contradict the Adal of Allah, if he sent prophets to people of other times to guide them and sent no one in our time. The Adal of Allah is the primary reason, that a Sahab-uz-zaman must exist in every age and for all people. The Sahabs of zaman after the Prophet were the Imams. We believe that the Imams are infallible just like the prophet and possess all the knowledge of the Prophet. But all of them are Gulaman-e-Mohammad, whose knowledge, piety and Sharaf, not even the Imams could reach. Munstansir Imam, the 18th Imam, sensing the changing of the times, sent Lamak bin Malik to Yemem. He also sent people to Hind foreseeing that Dawat would be transferred there eventually. Imam Amir, the 20th Imam, instructed Maulatuna Hurratul Malika, who was the greatest of jewels and Aalima of the highest calibre, to create the office of DAI-ul-Mutlaq after the seclusion of his infant son. The DAI were granted all the powers exercised by the Imam, in all the worldly and religious matter of a momim, which are same powers exercised by the Prophet. The DAIs are infallible just the like Imams, the argument for which is on a different thread. The first DAI was Syedna Zoeb bin Moosa. The 52nd is Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin. This is what we believe in.

[porus]

Since abdes claim that all ancient DB(?) books faithfully follow the Quran and Muhammad, it would be interesting to find if Infallibility of Imam/Dai is specified in the Quran or in Sunna.

And which Prophet and which Imam has claimed himself to be infallible in his own words according to Sunna, any Sunna, Sunni, Shia or DB? Or has Allah commanded Prophet Muhammad in the Quran to pronounce "Say, I am infallible?" Is that an ayat in the Quran?

[profastian]

Since abdes claim that all ancient DB(?) books faithfully follow the Quran and Muhammad, it would be interesting to find if Infallibility of Imam/Dai is specified in the Quran or in Sunna.

And which Prophet and which Imam has claimed himself to be infallible in his own words according to Sunna, any Sunna, Sunni, Shia or DB? Or has Allah commanded Prophet Muhammad in the Quran to pronounce "Say, I am infallible?" Is that an ayat in the Quran?

If the Prophet is not infallible, we may as well chuck the Quran in the bin..

[porus]

Hey heckler, why don't you answer the question. Did Prophet claim, in his own words, infallibility for himself or for Imam/Dai? Did any Imam, in his own words?

[profastian]

Hey heckler, why don't you answer the question. Did he claim, in his own words, infallibility for himself or for Imam/Dai?

I answered the question above. If the prophet is not infallible, how are we sure that every thing in the Quran is from Allah. Maybe he made some mistake or changed it deliberately. Everything in Islam rests on the infallibility of the Prophet.

[asad]

Profastian thanks for a brief history tour from Bohra POV. I and others already know this.

What i wanted to know is

We have come accross scams and embezzelment of money in tune of crores which was collected in the name of Dai. And culprits are either pardoned or transfered to more plum positions.

only one of the two can be true, Dais knows about this or he does not. If he knows and doesnt do any thing then he is party to corruption and if he doesnt know anything then he is not all knowing which he claims to be. Which will leave a big question mark on him being Masoom.

Answers from Die hard Abde's are solicited specially Adam/Profastian and their elk.

can you please answer this specific query.

[porus]

Hey heckler, why don't you answer the question. Did he claim, in his own words, infallibility for himself or for Imam/Dai?

I answered the question above. It is common sense. If the prophet is not infallible, how are we sure that every thing in the Quran is from Allah. Maybe he made some mistake or changed it deliberately.

Correct, you have no way of knowing if Prophet is infallible. Let us assume he is. Even if we assume that he is infallible, did he himself ever claim to be infallible and did he claim that Imams/Dai are infallible?

[profastian]

I answered the question above. It is common sense. If the prophet is not infallible, how are we sure that every thing in the Quran is from Allah. Maybe he made some mistake or changed it deliberately.

Correct, you have no way of knowing if Prophet is infallible. Let us assume he is. Even if we assume that he is infallible, did he himself ever claim to be infallible and did he claim that Imams/Dai are infallible?

Well yeah he said that he is infallible. But let us assume that he is not infallible. Then even if he said that he is infallible, it would be pointless. So everything is based on ones belief and common sense. It really does not matter whether he said it or not.

[porus]

Well yeah he said that he is infallible.

But let us assume that he is not infallible.

Then even if he said that he is infallible, it would be pointless. So everything is based on ones belief and common sense. It really does not matter whether he said it or not.

So you are saying, "I do not care whether he said or not. I believe that he is infallible on my own authority or on my cult leader's authority"

That is certainly a belief even if it is groundless. However it is not common sense.

Quran says Jesus had virgin birth. Common sense would reject the claim. But it is a groundless Muslim/Christian belief.

Common sense says that there is no way of knowing if these claims have any validity.

[profastian]

Well yeah he said that he is infallible.

But let us assume that he is not infallible.

Then even if he said that he is infallible, it would be pointless. So everything is based on ones belief and common sense. It really does not matter whether he said it or not.

So you are saying, "I do not care whether he said or not. I believe that he is infallible on my own authority or on my cult leader's authority"
That is certainly a belief even if it is groundless. However it is not common sense.

Quran says Jesus had virgin birth. Common sense would reject the claim. But it is a groundless Muslim/Christian belief.

Common sense says that there is no way of knowing if these claims have any validity.

You are repeating what I said, Common sense says that there is no way of knowing if these claims have any validity, (directly)
Whether he said it or not doesn't matter. Him saying he is doesn't mean that he is.
I had argued this in an earlier post too. You cannot start your belief with the Quran or the Prophet. It would only result in acircular argument. You start with your source, the source being the DAI in our case. We take him as a source, because we are impressed by the content of his knowledge. Then he is says, that Quran is the book of God and the prophet is his messenger. This is where belief and faith starts. Now when we believe that Quran is the book of God(because DAI says so), it is common sense that the Prophet is infallible.
You start with content,
Then comes faith,
Then comes God and the Prophet
trickles down again back to the source
Of course, it is a circular argument too(but try and present a non circular one), but the only redeeming quality of this argument is that it all start with the presentation of knowledge, the usage of Aqal and choice, and then faith. After all, that is what all religion is. You start with something the impresses you and then interpolate.

[porus]

You start with your source, the source being the DAI in our case. We take him as a source, because we are impressed by the content of his knowledge. Then he is says, that Quran is the book of God and the prophet is his messenger. This is where belief and faith starts. Now when we believe that Quran is the book of God(because DAI says so), it is common sense that the Prophet is infallible.

You start with content,
Then comes faith,
.
.
[/color]

Quran and Muhammad are infallible because the Dai says so?

The truth is that your faith is in the Dai and you worship him and there is no genuine basis for your faith. It is obviously a testament of your brainwashing. Majority of Muslims have believed Quran to be infallible centuries before the office of Dai al-Mutlaq was a twinkle in Malika Hurra's eyes.

[Adam]

@PORUS
I don't know where you're trying to get with this. A simple question to YOU. Let's take this thread step by step very simply.
Do you believe the Prophet Muhammed SAW is/was infallible?

[anajmi]

I don't believe that prophet Mohammed (saw) was infallible. Nothing in the Quran says that the prophet is infallible. These are stories created by those inclined towards idol worship of humans. Only Allah is infallible.

[SBM]

@PORUS
I don't know where you're trying to get with this. A simple question to YOU. Let's take this thread step by step very simply.
Do you believe the Prophet Muhammed SAW is/was infallible?

As I said I am not scholar if Prophete Muhammed was infallible then when Surah Abasa was revealed?

[Adam]

Thanks for replying.
We're making progress.
You'll both don't belive Prophet Muhammed was infallible. (ie, he wasn't perfect, and it's possible he could have done something wrong).
I'll also wait for PORUS s opinion

[SBM]

Adam
Again hopefully the word Infallible does not get twisted. My understanding that Prophet Mohammed acted on the command of Allah in his dealings but was superior to entire mankind

[Adam]

@SBM
Thank you for clarifying your stance. It seems by what you just said, that the Prophet IS infallible. True or False
This is my definition, unless someone wants to add something.
INFALLIBLE = Perfect, no mistakes.
NOT INFALLIBLE = Not Perfect, possibility of making mistakes.

ANAJMI says
Allah = INFALLIBLE
Prophet = Not Infallible.

[porus]

@PORUS
I don't know where you're trying to get with this. A simple question to YOU. Let's take this thread step by step very simply.
Do you believe the Prophet Muhammed SAW is/was infallible?

Adam,

I have repeatedly told you that my beliefs are completely irrelevant to me conducting investigations and engaging in discussions about religious beliefs. Since I was born in a DB family and most of my relatives and friends are DBs, I am interested in their beliefs and yours.

There is no genuine basis for the religious beliefs of any group of people except that they are born to parents who have those beliefs or are raised in a society where significant adults hold those beliefs and who point to ancient books or a 'Leader' as 'proof' for their beliefs. A minority of these adults conspire with 'Leader' to enforce Leader's power with threats of ostracism.

Many human beings believe in God. Many don't. Those who believe cannot deny those who do not the freedom to engage in discussions about religious beliefs. People like Ayman al-Zwahiri believe that those Muslims who do not believe like they do are not Muslims and justify killing them on the basis of their interpretation of the Quran and Sunna.

You are perhaps not that extreme. But your thought processes are no different from those of Ayman al-Zwahiri.

Let us say that Prophet is infallible. Did Prophet tell you that? Did any Imam tell you that they are infallible. I suggest that infallibility of Prophet and Imams is your interpretation. While I do not deny you your interpretation, neither do I deny those who do not believe like you do and they are entitled to participate in discussions about these in the 'faith' they are born into and seek to change beliefs.

I am prepared to argue on the basis of Quran being inerrant word of God even if I do not genuinely know if that is true. And I follow my own interpretation of the Quran and seek help from many people including DB sources and the Dai. However, I am the final authority on my interpretation. Why am I less qualified to interpret the Quran than anyone else? Do you have an answer for that?

Universal moral imperative for a group, religious or otherwise, is the golden rule. If you observe a lot of unhappiness and arbitrary use of power on the basis of beliefs which cannot be justified, it is right for you to seek to set those beliefs aside.

[S. Insaf]

I have already discussed this in a debate on my article “Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith”:-
Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer has very well argued in his article “Doctrine of infallibility in Islamili tradition” the perception of infallibility. He has come to the conclusion that even to the Prophets the infallibility is only in religious sphere and even the prophets can make mistake in worldly matters.
I quote below some extracts from his article:-

There is great deal of misconception about the doctrine of 'ismah (infallibility) and its precise meaning among the Isma'ilis, in general, and among the Dawoodi Bohras, in particular. The doctrine of 'ismah i.e. infallibility applies only to the Prophet in Sunni Islam and to the Prophet, his legatee (wasi) and imams in Shi'ah Islam.

Again the question arises what is exact implication of the doctrine of infallibility. Does it mean infallibility in both religious and secular matters or only in religious matters? The sources are not very clear on this. It has not been specifically mentioned in the Shi'ah sources whether the doctrine of 'ismah applies to only religious or also to secular matters. It has been left vague.

We find a hadith that once the Prophet (PBUH) advised some people in Madina to plant the date palm trees in a particular way. But when they planted in that fashion the yield of date fruit reduced. They complained to the Prophet that they followed his advice but the yield was reduced. The Prophet thereupon said that (antum a'alamuna bi umuri dunyakum) you know better in the worldly matters and you plant in a way which is more profitable.

Holy Quran requires the Prophet to consult his companions in important matters (wa shawirhum fi'al-amr, 3:159). Here the question arises if the Prophet is infallible in all matters including the worldly matters also why Allah requires him to consult his companions in important matters like strategies of war or techniques of war etc. And we have a number of occasions on which the Prophet consulted his companions and accepted their counsel. Such consultation becomes superfluous if the doctrine of 'ismah is applied to all spheres of action.

Can imam be infallible in worldly matters also? If the question is yes, will his pronouncements in all worldly matters be binding on his followers? And if it is so can an Imam be such an expert in all spheres that he will commit no error say in the fields of solar physics, astro-physics, or particle physics; or in the fields of industrial chemistry or agro-industry? Or various diseases like cancer or AIDS? Obviously it will be difficult to maintain such a position as a viable one. And no one expects a Imam to be such an expert. He mainly looks towards him as a source of inspiration and guidance in religious and spiritual matters.

This leads us to the conclusion that the doctrine of 'ismah is to be understood properly.

Now the head of the Dawoodi Bohra sect Saiyyidna Muhammad Burhanuddin and his father Saiyyidna Tahir Saifuddin began to claim that they are infallible and that they can never go wrong. This is of course an innovation (bid'ah) that a da'i could be infallible. According to the Shi'ah-Isma'ili sources (or the authentic sources of the Fatimi Da'wah) only an Imam can be ma'sum, not any one below the rank of Imam can claim 'ismah (infallibility) for himself, not even hujjah who is far above the rank of a da'i.
But the Dawoodi Bohra religious establishment has now popularized this and the da'i is being projected as ma'sum. They have not even properly thought of implications of such a claim.

[porus]

I have argued several times on this board that on the basis of the ayat of tatheer (33:33) and the hadith of Ahl al-Kisaa, a case can be made for the infalliibilty for Panjatan and only for Panjatan.

There is no basis in the Quran or Hadith for infallibility of any Imam after Husain. No Imam starting from Zainul Abideen can be considered infallible, let alone any hujjat or Dai.

If Ismaili books claim infallibility for Imams, they are nothing more than pronouncements of 'egotistical philosphers'. I have yet to come across a saying of any Imam or Dai claiming infallibility except Sayedna Taher Saifuddin. I am not sure if Sayedna Muhammad Burhanuddin has made that claim.

[Al Zulfiqar]

profastian,

your logic is inimitable. for you the source of all your wisdom starts in reverse. instead of the quran and muhammad, it starts with dai. so if dai says that prophet was infallible and imams were infallible, then by some strange logic dai becomes infallible too???

now let us examine how infallible this dai is.
the same dai who in a fit of foolishness uttered public laanats against the first 3 khalifas and then when his abdes were hammered, killed and looted, he has to go on national tv and apologise?
the same dai whose entourage was caught smuggling precious stones out of sri lanka?
the same dai who was banned from tanzania and had to bribe, cajole and engage high powered lawyers to be allowed back in?
the same dai who was banned for 20+ years from saudia and allowed in only under strict conditions restricting his and his abdes' movements?
the same dai who begs his abdes to pray for his long life and accepts sajdas from them?
the same dai who accepts huge sums of black money in salaams without bothering whether the money is earned in a halal or haraam fashion?

if this behaviour represents infallibility, then god help the blind and foolish abdes. who believe in the infallibility of syedna!!!

[porus]

We take him (the Dai) as a source, because we are impressed by the content of his knowledge.

Unless you have the knowledge as good as his, you are in no position to judge the extent and depth of the Dai's knowledge.

The truth is that you take the Dai to be the source because you were told that he is, and you simply parrot what you have been told about the Dai's knowledge.

[ghulam muhammed]

We take him (the Dai) as a source, because we are impressed by the content of his knowledge.

How many books has the dai authored by virtue of his profound knowledge ? I bet not even 1/10th of what his rival Asghar Ali Engineer has done. And how many people were impressed and convinced with his "profound knowledge" (other then idiot abdes) which led to a stream of people converting to bohraism ? The obvious answer is a BIG ZERO !!

[Adam]

@PORUS
The topic is being deviated again. You said:

Many human beings believe in God. Many don't. Those who believe cannot deny those who do not the freedom to engage in discussions about religious beliefs.

I never said I wont engage in discussion. I only said, I would like to know your stance first and then continue the discussion accordingly.

Again, this s off topic, but you said:

However, I am the final authority on my interpretation. Why am I less qualified to interpret the Quran than anyone else?

Because you haven't been appointed by the Prophet SAW to interpret it. And your interpretation has a possibility of error, because you aren't perfect (unless you claim you are), neither am I. You are not the "Ahl Zikr". The Quran says "we have gathered the Quran, and the "bayaan" (interpretation, discussion) is Upon US. Are you a part of that "US"
(This is off topic, please continue on the Ismah first, according to the topic of this thread)

So coming back to the first question:
Do YOU believe that the Prophet is infallible?
To sum up:
Anajmi says NO
SBM says YES
S. Insaf & Engineer say YES in Religion NO in wordly matters (I still don't know if S. Insaf is a Proggy or a Sunni/Wahabi, doesn't seem clear)
Zulfaqar : Not sure yet
gulam mohammed : Not sure yet

[porus]

Again, this s off topic, but you said:

However, I am the final authority on my interpretation. Why am I less qualified to interpret the Quran than anyone else?

Because you haven't been appointed by the Prophet SAW to interpret it. And your interpretation has a possibility of error, because you aren't perfect (unless you claim you are), neither am I. You are not the "Ahl Zikr". The Quran says "we have gathered the Quran, and the "bayaan" (interpretation, discussion) is Upon US. Are you a part of that "US"
(This is off topic, please continue on the Ismah first, according to the topic of this thread)

It may be off topic but I will venture a response. I am aware of my limitations. I may go the Dai and he may interpret the Quran for me. I may be satisfied with it. However, there is still a possibility that I may have misunderstood the Dai. Hence, in the final analysis, I am responsible for interpretation, even if it is my interpretation of the Dai's interpretation. I am not talking about memorizing Dai's interpretation and repeating it parrot-fashion.

Having said that, I may still disagree with the Dai's interpretation. And Dai is not "Us" either. However, Quran is for all to read and understand, not just a select few. Quran itself makes that clear in my interpretation of it.

So coming back to the first question:
Do YOU believe that the Prophet is infallible?

The only honest answer is that I do not know and I do not have any basis for believing either way. I have the same attitude towards the Quran. I do not really know if it is from Allah. I have no basis for believing either way. However, for discussions on this board and with Muslims, I operate on the assumption that the Quran is an inerrant word of God. That in turn leads me to a logical conclusion that only the Prophet, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain were infallible. I do not believe anyone else to be infallible. Infallibility died at Karbala.

Sayyid Mufaddal became infallible instantly he was pronounced Mansoos. That is simply a ludicrous statement and belief.
[/color][/quote]

[Adam]

@PORUS

Quran is for all to read and understand, not just a select few. Quran itself makes that clear in my interpretation of it.

Yes, understanding is for all. Interpreting isn't. That's solely for the "Ahluz Zikr", the "US". And yes, we consider the Dai Muthlaq one of the "US", because he was appointed by the Imam who was appointed by the Wasi who was appointed be the Prophet, to interpret the Quran.

You're following quotes suprized/disturbed me, for someone who claims to be a Muslim. Seems more like a confused Muslim.

I have the same attitude towards the Quran. I do not really know if it is from Allah. I have no basis for believing either way. However, for discussions on this board and with Muslims, I operate on the assumption that the Quran is an inerrant word of God.

Which would bring us to another Question. Do you believe in the Quran as the infallible word of Allah?
If there is doubt in this answer from yourside (as stated by your above), it would be pretty difficult to discuss Islam with someone who doesn't follow its main source.

Supposing you believe in the Quran, your next statement:

That in turn leads me to a logical conclusion that only the Prophet, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain were infallible. I do not believe anyone else to be infallible. Infallibility died at Karbala.

How did you arrive at this "logical conclusion"? Can you cite your sources? Because the names of Panjatan aren't mentioned in the Ayat Tath-heer.

Thanks

[profastian]

@PORUS

Quran is for all to read and understand, not just a select few. Quran itself makes that clear in my interpretation of it.

Yes, understanding is for all. Interpreting isn't. That's solely for the "Ahluz Zikr", the "US". And yes, we consider the Dai Muthlaq one of the "US", because he was appointed by the Imam who was appointed by the Wasi who was appointed be the Prophet, to interpret the Quran.

You're following quotes suprized/disturbed me, for someone who claims to be a Muslim. Seems more like a confused Muslim.

I have the same attitude towards the Quran. I do not really know if it is from Allah. I have no basis for believing either way. However, for discussions on this board and with Muslims, I operate on the assumption that the Quran is an inerrant word of God.

Which would bring us to another Question. Do you believe in the Quran as the infallible word of Allah?
If there is doubt in this answer from yourside (as stated by your above), it would be pretty difficult to discuss Islam with someone who doesn't follow its main source.

Supposing you believe in the Quran, your next statement:

That in turn leads me to a logical conclusion that only the Prophet, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain were infallible. I do not believe anyone else to be infallible. Infallibility died at Karbala.

How did you arrive at this "logical conclusion"? Can you cite your sources? Because the names of Panjatan aren't mentioned in the Ayat Tath-heer.

Thanks

And firstly, why do you believe that Quran is error free? Just an assumption?

[Al Zulfiqar]

And firstly, why do you believe that Quran is error free? Just an assumption?

you cannot ask such questions until you cite the religious SOURCES of your birth from bohra deeni scriptures. where were you conceived, where were you born, who are the authors of your birth certificate, on what religious authority did they sign your birth certificate etc. evidence must be provided from each and every nabi and imam re: your birth.