Shahadat sermons are they to be rated in 21st century

[ozmujaheed]

I hope this topc does not generate into a abde prog mud slinging but want intellectual feedback. I want some confirmation and correction so I can continue my debates with the non Muslims

I as a young bohra used to attend bayans and used to watch the Diai and Amils in mass congregation dramatizing the martyrdom of the shaheeds.

I was recently speaking to a colleague who is a psychologist and we wondered is this appropriate to indoctrinate the generations by over emphasizing the gruesome events. Eg the words and actions to describe such as Kaleja na tukra, ghalu katu, gala ma teer, etc.

The concern is are we diminishing the humanity and reliving the tragedy and breeding a violent culture that at times propogates into violent intolerance. Kids listen to these sermons and are taught in madrasahs. I am not implying we change historical facts but there is a way to deliver it and the level of details can be rated such that the message is appropriate for the age of the audience.

One could argue this is purely an idealistic Western view, however it has merit. Is it not time to tone down the expression of events and leave it to history ?

Secondly the repeated generalizing blame on Sunnis which i disagree with the shia records as it is not that sunnis who killed the ahlulbayt but deviant tribes or the people of that time, and in recent times fuels racism and discrimination by keeping the flames of hatred between the Islamic sects alive for over 1400 years .

Is it not time that the preaching of Shiaism and Islam emphasize wars and dramatizing of events to more tender examples such as The prophet being a philanthropist , Ali's wisdom, there must also be subtle qualities of Hussein such as his desie to protect the originality and stopping at him giving his life , we do not need to be drum,Ed the gruesome details, of khanjar, him being beheaded, head paraded, etc . Is it not enough for the believers to understand that he died a violent death

This topic is being actively discussed and researched by certain western Christians and other faiths into why they are perceiving Islamic approach as violent and aggressive , and why it seems we are clashing with other civilizations. I have met priests from Judaism and Christianity and they are wondering why they feel a Muslim youth is likely to be full of anger, aggression and militancy vs a refugee youth or a slum dweller Their suspicion is that we preach intolerance and aggressiveness in dealing with differences of opinion. We sow the seeds of hatred in our young intentionally or accidentally. I know this is not the intent of our faith but a symptom of our rituals.

What is your view to this statements ?

[like_minded]

A very good post!

This issue of shahadat is purposely kept alive by the vested interest in order to divert, distract the followers from the main issue which to me is self-awareness and understanding which will lead to awakening and discovering LIFE.

The bohra cult has gone a step further by making sure that followers remain blind-folded completely detached with reality. This also encourages the conflict that remains in the minds of the followers making them intolerant, rigid and irrational.

[Hussain_KSA]

These sermons are the same since centuries. As far as shia community is concern their preaches get training from khum and Mash'had institutes for karbala and it narration during Muaharram. It is like jamia saifia for them. Every waez has his own style. As mellow drama and other things are concerned these are too not new. If you read the chapter from Tabri's history regarding the Karbala episode you will find much similarity. The Bohra style of Shahadat bayan is bit different and If you read the Fourth volume of Akhbar Ul Uyoon by Syedna Idrees Imaduddin Al Qarshi (19th Dai who predicted Dawat transfer to India and author of Simtul Haqaiq and Zuhrul Muani) you will find exact narration of Shahadat bayan what we hear today duing Ramadan.

In my view, restrain should be observed during bayan in todays world.

BTW all the above mentioned books and other ismaili fatimi books are available in PDF version in Arabic language. One of the book Saheefa Alwiya ( Ali bin Abu Talib's supplications)and copy of Saheefa Sajjadia (manuscript) I found in King Saudi University of Riyadh - Saudi Arabia.

[like_minded]

My simple questions is.... Why do u want to repeat these bayaans year after year? (In the case of bohras - 24/7 x 365) Why do you want the followers to be chained to this piece of history? What relevance do these events have with our present lives? Besides, how do we know what is narrated is true?

[humanbeing]

History cannot be forgotten or abandoned. Infact history gives us opportunity to learn from our mistakes, how do we remember and learn from it; is up to us. Violence has been part of human in fact earth’s history since inception. Its up to us human to derive or interpret events from history.

In school our history books are filled with world wars and cold wars events. This war history are taught in school to maturing kids. How they grow to learn lessons from history would really depend on 360d degree factors such as genes, upbringing, home & cultural environment.

We are not chained to our history, we are linked, and when we break this think, we will be lost. If we don’t know where we come from.. we will not know where we are heading. Every historical event worth a lesson shall not be forgotten.

Violence is eternal truth of this earth. So Instead of worrying over changing the world or abandoning history. We shall learn to adapt and spread awareness for peace and harmony. We shall communicate more with young minds around, we need to teach ourselves and our little generation difference between violence and courage. Facing the challenge is logical solution.

Event of Muharram has emotional as well as practical significance in our today’s life. Sad Irony is that, Essence of the message from Sacrifice of Imam Hussain is lost in its repetitions and exaggeration. Muharram History signifies Ironic Victory of Good over Evil. Imam Hussain Lost the battle but won the war. Courage in toughest times, family values, patience, tolerance and forgiveness.

Dear Like Minded, Bayaan is one good source to share history of Islam. Not everyone can access or read from books. Waaz or Bayaan is an effective source for many to learn. Now the practicality, interest, accuracy and belief depends on listener and orator. We live in free world (to an extent) Bayaans willl keep happening. For some its repetitive for some its first time. So it’s a subjective issue. If you are bored listening to same stuff, you can choose to ignore and refer to another topic. Today technology has enabled many sources to learn from. Person who leads the Majlis holds the responsibility and power to narrate the events as per his capabilities, again it’s a subjective issue how well or engaging one’s speech / narration can be. So it’s a difficult argument to standardize oratory skills and content to express historical events.

In the end what is important, is what we learn from history !

[like_minded]

In the end what is important, is what we learn from history !

Tell me honestly... what have we learnt from history?

More killings, more cruelty, more exploitation, more greed, more fear, more superstitions... the list is endless.....

Let's get over it my friend! Let's stop pretending, Let's face reality....

[humanbeing]

HI Like Minded !

Tell me honestly... what have we learnt from history?

During the times of Industrial revolution in England, capitalism was at its peak, lack of laws and regulations, even basic humanity amongst rich and business minded class lead to deterioration of basic human values and needs. Labor was considered a production machinery and were put to maximum use at lowest cost. Weak and poor people lived in slums and pitiable conditions. London was thriving production and business centre. Labors lived on the banks of Rives thames, industrial toxic waste was discharged into the river along with other filth and garbage. Same river thames was used by people for their consumption needs. A time came when Rives Thames got so polluted it caused epidemic known as Black Cholera causing death of thousands.

Lesson learnt : Those who learned from history and experience, now take care of rivers in their city, River Thames is now restored and maintained. River Siene in Paris also had similar story.

Labor Laws and Regulations were formed, various production and management techniques were invented or established to consider human values in business. Employment and Benefits Rights we enjoy today came from lessons learnt from history.

World Wars Thought us how costly is war ! Countries, Government, People who have learnt from history refrain from War. Germany, Poland, Swiss, Italy, France, Britain, Russia and Eastern European countries were most suffered during world wars, now they know what it cost to go on a full scale war. Use of Atomic Bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki now stands a sad example to deter hot headed idiots from using such WMDs.

Reality is to face the violence, every era, century and millennia violence will exist, it’s the balance of nature. Its Good and the Evil, Good cannot exist without Evil.

More killings, more cruelty, more exploitation, more greed, more fear, more superstitions... the list is endless.....

Who knows ? which was worse ? History or Now or will it get more worse in Future. Everything depends on perception. Ask kids in Afghanistan, its easy and routine for them to play around Guns, Tanks, Armoured trucks and live with sounds of bombings few metres away from their house, where as Kids in Developed safe countries would cry and shiver at a sight of a street quarrel.

[ozmujaheed]

HB good comments , and to add to others however I am not suggesting we change history but our leaders and priests do not need to dramatize the events in public where kids are present. There is a sutle way to describe that a imam or dia sacrificed his life for justice, but to create a grieving mood, self flagellation , wailing, describing and acting behead ment, has a profound impact on the psychology of a child, cursing the Sunnis etc.

It is like replaying the call of duty, and Conan the barbarian over and over again to a child and a mass congregation ...what will his mind turn out to be ? It is a very volatile situation

If you look at how Easter is played out in churches they describe very modestly and are mindful of the message they want to express, apart for a few like in philipines where some one reenacts the crucifixion, which by the way is discouraged by the catholic and Anglican establishment. But now for once imagine if they abused Jews, cursed the Jewish priests, wailed ...some idiot would start mass murder? But apart from hitler and Stalin you nowadays do not see the west blaming the Jews for their issues. Intact they have formed an alliance !

What are the views of abdes, only Mustafa responded but did not share much, do you agree there is need to change the message or it is to sensitive just incase you are seen to be smarter than the zadas and Diai ? Atleast share your intellectual position, I do not think you risk being sinfull ?

[SBM]

MN

i think kids today are far more intelligent than to be swayed by a bayaan.

Not in case of Regressive. Look at their pictures at Malumaat and Zenifosys, Making and delivering Dabbas. sitting on floor taking Mardrassa exam when modern conveniences like table and chairs are available. Doing Purjosh Maatam without understanding the reason and importance,
Intelligent and Regressive are not synonyms

[humanbeing]

Hi OM

Thanks !

In my personal opinion, I find muharram waaz exaggerated by melodramatic melancholy which appears to be fake and rehearsed by orators. Surely we have attended many Muharram waaz and Zikr-e-hussain. Waaz starts on a neutral tone, and moment Zikre-e-hussain starts, sadness and grieving starts within seconds. This switch from sober neutral tone to wailing and crying within seconds can’t be natural. I feel bad; why do it, when not required. There is ample time with the orator to create a flow in the narration and stir emotions with flow and content of Bayaan to arouse natural grief according to oneself and listener’s sensibilities.

At the same time, I see and hear exaggerated articulation of tone, pitch and volume to control audience reactions. I m not a great public speaker to advise orators. But from common listener’s point of view, I m sharing what I observe. Most of the time orators are reading from the book and orchestrating the bayaan as per their rehearsed tone and melancholy. Orators are considered as professional speakers and command superior knowledge regarding Muharram. Least they can do is be natural in their oration.

Violence Narration in the event cannot be avoided, as it forms the very part of atrocities inflicted on Shohodas, which in turn makes us realize what would have been the pain and suffering to uphold the values of Islam. However if we notice, bayaan is more victim oriented. As it describes tolerance to endure wounds and psychological sufferings. Which could be a learning lesson for us to be tolerant and thankful of what we are blessed with.

A beautiful parting statement which Sayedna Saheb or other orator says : “ Imam Hussain na gam na Siva khuda koi aur gam na bataave” Which is a positive learning lesson to realise that no pain or suffering can be more than what Imam Hussain and Shohoda endured. Atleast it helps us pacify our sorrows.

Morever bohra are peace loving, food loving people. Fighting specially with swords and bullets is not our forte, and I m glad about this quality.

[ozmujaheed]

What is the PDB view on this topic, GM, , Mr Engineer, etc ?

Abdes will not even try since they are tuned to receive instructions not suggest ideas.

[ghulam muhammed]

Sermons per se are neccessary in order to freshen the minds of the audience and most importantly to pass on the true message but sadly the present day sermons are full of melodrama which charges the audience only emotionally and in the bargain leaves them spiritually bankrupt. This is the bitter truth especially when it comes to Mohurrum sermons. A lot has been discussed with regard to mohurrum sermons being reduced to the mere glorification of the 51st and 52nd dai so lets not stress on that angle. Rather lets examine it from other angles.

The bohra sermons lays emphasis only on the hardships and tortures undergone by the shohadas but delibarately ignores the purpose behind it as the clergy doesnt want his followers to THINK about the true purpose and in turn compare the acts of loyalty, piety and sacrifice with the clergy himself who are guilty of doing exactly the opposite of what was preached by Imam Hussain (a.s.). Hence full attention is given to the torture which is explained in minute details step by step and the event is purposely highly exagerated in order to keep the audience fully charged. The vayezins are good orators who recieve special training in oratory and are trained to keep the audience spellbound, they are also very good psychologists who know the mass psychology very well and use it to manipulate the audience. The hindutva leader Bal Thakerey too is an excellent orator who manages to keep his audience spellbound for hours during his annual dassera speech at shivaji park. He was a mere cartoonist turned into a powerful mass leader who owes his success to his skill of oratory. Hence anyone can master this art of oratory with proper training.

After attending 9 day sermons related to a part of history which almost gave Islam a new life, what do bohras learn at the end of it ??? Practically NOTHING !! There is hardly any change in their attitude and approach as they have not been able to grasp the true message behind this great event. If one examines thoroughly then he would realise that the message grasped by bohras is only SYMPATHY and nothing else. They only sympathise for the brave Hussain (a.s.) and his army but never reflect on his bravery, a virtue which is never given importance. They sympathise for him being beheaded but never reflect on the very purpose behind it. Every act of Imam Hussain (a.s.) is presented in a manner which only arouses sympathy due to which bohras are at a loss to ponder over the true message as conveyed by the great souls . This 'Sympathy' angle is then manipulated effectively by the dai who projects himself as an old, fragile and sick man with limited needs who in such a state could not crave for wealth, a lie which is immediately accepted by his followers as they have not learnt anything except sympathy. They are quick to paste stickers with the message "Live like Ali and Die like Hussain" on their doors although what they have learned is to "Live like Burhanudin and Die like Saifudin".

Regarding violent reactions, I dont think it could be the case with bohras as they are too very timid by nature and moreover they are not part of any government or members of any extremist organisations unlike the shias who govern countries like Iran and Iraq and are part of terrorists outfits like Hezbullah, Iran Revolutionary guards etc. and hence can be easily influenced with the violent version of mohurrum as projected by their clergies. Moreover the shias also organise a literal and dramatic version of the karbala battle wherein they run horses and palkhis in their imambadas with full fledged drum beats to give it a more natural effect. Even street plays are organised in countries like iran wherein individuals play the part of Hussain (a.s.) and yazid all with swords and spears. Then there are huge alam processions with all the bloody beatings. These types of visible scenes create a negative impact on children and even some elders hence the same should be definately avoided.

[Al Zulfiqar]

“Imam Hussain na gam na Siva khuda koi aur gam na bataave... ane ae gham aap logon istemaal karjo, eno izhar karjo, khub maatam karjo ke hu ta qayamat tamara upar aabado shaad rahu ane maara saaya atefa ma maro manhoos pan tulul umr jive.., taa-ke hamein bewe baap-dikra tamari vajebaat, salaam ane najwa bewe haathon thi loot ta rahiye"..

aameen!!

[ghulam muhammed]

A glaring example of 'Spiritual Bankruptcy' inspite of the constant drilling of the vigorous 9 day sermons and its repetation at any and every given occassion throughout the year can be found in the abde's reaction to the gujarat carnage in which thousands of innocent muslims were hacked to death, their lifelong savings looted, their houses and business establishments reduced to rubbles and their females raped and brutally murdered. Although these horrific events and the cries of the victims were aired for months on television channels yet the abdes and their leaders are unmoved which is evident in the manner in which they defend their master's felicitation of the chief architect of this mass genocide.

They claim to be moved by the gruesome events of karbala, a tragedy which was never witnessed by them but are immune to the tragedy which is still fresh in the entire world's mind. Such is the level of hypocrisy and inhumanity inspite of their constant wailing and thumping of chests due to the so called grief of the shohadas. If at all they had grasped the true message of karbala they would have felt genuine pain for their muslim brothers and would have never approved of their master's idea of bribing the yazid of today. Thank God that the dai was not leading the shohadas of karbala as otherwise Islam would have vanished from the face of the earth. He would have probably draped a shawl around yazid, given him a huge amount from baitul maal and covered the deficit by more then 10 times by taking ziafats from the shohadas themselves, feasted on 2 kharas 2 mithas and would have gone home packing.

[ghulam muhammed]

Shakespeare said in Macbeth, “...a tale/ Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,/ Signifying nothing." If abdes raise any logical questions, they will be denounced as "dawat no dushman". The abdes who gather at Masjids for Mohurrum sermons display a mob mentality that has been accurately described by Shakespeare in Julius Caesar.

After Caesar’s murder, Mark Antony stirred up the Roman mob, which went around seeking revenge on the conspirators. One of the conspirators was named Cinna. The mob caught hold of another man, also named Cinna, who
protested that he was Cinna the poet and not Cinna the conspirator. Despite his protests, the mob said, “tear him for his bad verses”, and lynched him. In the same manner, abdes dont know head or tail as to WHY Imam Hussain (a.s.) chose Shahadat and what are the true lessons one has to learn from this entire episode except beating chests and feasting on 2 kharas 2 mithas immediately after the bayans.