Killing animals

[profastian]

Proggies have a big problem with the killing of wild animals. My question to them is, why kill any animals at all? Is it all right to kill cattle but not ok to kill wild animals? You might say that we have to kill cattle for sustenance but killing wild animals is only for entertainment. But killing cattle is not necessary for sustenance. You guys could easily turn vegetarians. A large portion of the world population survives without killing of cattle. Why not you?

[progticide]

Bro Prof,
Poor progs are scared if the Syedna were to miss a shot and an unsuspecting proggy getting shot in his bum instead.

Don't worry guys, Syedna is Masoom. You would not be harmed in this manner ever. But since you guys are not sure about his infallibility, I suggest you keep out of his way and range anyways. Who knows the gunshot sound could give you guys an Heart Attack.

[humanbeing]

The Forbidden Hunting

Islam has enjoined upon Muslims the correct relationship with animals. They are asked to treat animals well, and they are not allowed to kill animals except for food. The latter permission has to be carried out in accordance with the shari'ah (Islamic law-code). Only in limited cases some animals are allowed to be killed when they endanger the life of the human.

In fact, Islam goes beyond any expectations and demands that the psyche of the animal be taken into consideration.

Hunting

Whilst hunting is permitted in principle, it becomes prohibited under certain conditions. Ibn Taymiyyah pronounced: "Hunting out of necessity is permitted; if it is for fun and playing, it is detested; and if it causes injustice to people, by destroying their fields and property, it is prohibited." (al-Fatawa; vol. 4, p. 619)

Hunting should be done out of necessity; where necessity is defined in terms of need for food, where other means are not possible. One should also take into consideration hunting seasons and the kind and number of animals and birds allowed to be hunted. Hunting tools that cause great pain are prohibited. The latter include traps that lock on the leg of the animal causing pain and bleeding until the hunter returns, which could be for days!

Frivolous Hunting

Moreover, one should not take lightly the issue of killing, without any justification, even if the victim is a very small animal or bird. 'Abdullah Ibn 'Amr reported that the Prophet [S.A.W] said: "No human being kills a sparrow or [something] larger, without right, except that Allah will ask him about it (hold him responsible!) on the Day of Judgement." It was said: O Prophet of Allah! What is its right? He said: " Its right is that you slaughter it and eat it, not that you decapitate it!" (Al-Nasa'i, 7/ 207)

Another area of prohibition covers the hunting of wild animals for reasons other than food, e.g. for fur. Prophet [S.A.W] said: "Do not "ride" on silk and tiger fur"(Abu Dawud, # 4129) The prohibition of the use of silk and tiger fur, for seating, whither on saddles or in homes, is to prevent pompous life styles. One can deduce, by analogy, that the fur of all wild cats can not be used.

Unjustified Killing

In addition, Islam prohibits the use of animals as targets for shooting. Prophet [S.A.W] said: "A woman who tied a cat will go to Hellfire; she neither fed it, nor allowed it to find food on its own." (Al-Bukhari)

Furthermore, hitting animals and marking them in the face is prohibited. Jabir (RA) reports that one should look for alternative ways to mark animals such as non-poisonous. It is also prohibited to set animals against one another. This practice is associated nowadays with gambling. Ibn 'Abbas reports a hadith in which the Prophet [S.A.W] prohibited this practice. (Abu Dawud, # 2556)

Animal Abuse

The shari'ah aims to protect animal abuse in the name of having fun or sport. It is clear that "wrestling" bulls, cannot be accepted from an Islamic perspective as a sport. One should seriously reconsider harming oneself or others, be it humans [e.g. boxing, wrestling] or animals.

To further protect animals, Islam has also looked into the load an animal can carry without harm. The Prophet [S.A.W] prohibited riding on weak animals. Not only physical harm to animals is prohibited, but also insulting or cursing. 'Imran Ibn Al-Hasin narrates that the Messenger of Allah [S.A.W] was travelling once [with a group of Companions which included] a woman from amongst the Ansar on a camel. [It seems that at one point driving her camel became difficult] she was annoyed, and cursed the camel! The Messenger of Allah heard her and said: "Now that it is cursed, unload it and allow it [to roam free]." (Muslim, # 2595)

Charity Upon Animals

Voluntary almsgiving can be lavished upon animals too. Ibn Taymiyyah has said that being good to animals is one way of Worshipping Allah. All this is in line with the hadith of the Prophet [S.A.W]: "There is reward in [caring for] every living being." (Muslim, 7:44)

It should not come as a surprise if we know that one of the Prophets of Islam, Suleiman [PBUH] changed the path of his army to avoid hurting ants. (Qur'an, 27:18-19) This position towards the ants is further confirmed in a hadith narrated by Abu Dawud, that Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet [S.A.W] prohibited the killing of four creatures: "The ant, the bee, the hoopoe and the sparrow-hawk."

The story of Prophet Nuh and the Flood also confirms the utmost care to prevent the extinction of any species. Allah commanded him to carry a pair of every species in the ark: "...We said: "Embark therein, of each kind two, male and female..." Qur'an, 11:40

Times of Killing

Yet, when an animal is proven to be a source of danger or harm, it is permitted to kill it. The Messenger [S.A.W] said: "Five creatures, all harmful, can be killed in the Haram (holy precincts): the crow, the kite, the scorpion, the mouse and the dog that bites [people without being provoked]".

If it were not for the harm, actual or anticipated, there would be no permission to kill animals, rodents, insects and birds. Animals have set living patterns as mankind, and reference to this is contained in the Qur'an: "There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you..." (Qur'an, 6:38)

Also cutting the trees of the Haram (Noble Sanctuary in Makkah) is prohibited. The Haram might be considered the first protected "natural reservation" in the history of humanity. To emphasize the sanctity of the Haram, Allah prescribes a punishment for those who desecrates its boundaries: "O ye who believe! Kill not game while in the Sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. If any of you doth so intentionally, the compensation is an offering........" (Qur'an, 5:98)

Islam and the Animal Kingdom
By: Jamiatul Ulama (KZN)
http://www.muslimbridges.org/index.php? ... &Itemid=79

[progticide]

Human Being,
The diligency who have showed above is commendable. You should print the stuff and keep in under your pillow everynight before you go to sleep.

BTW, if you invest half of that energy in reading the necessity of Imam (Imams from the progeny of Ali and Fatima) during every age you would know where to direct your efforts and what to look out for. Read the book" The Master of the Age" - By Paul walker and "Degrees of Excellence" by Arzina Lalani. They are both translations of works of Fatimi dais during the age of Fatimi Caliphate.

Without a guide (Imam and in his absence Dai-e-Mutlaq) there is no road to deliverence.

[humanbeing]

Hi Prog

What happen !! resorting to lousy sabak tactics, I have posted / shared material relevant to the thread and topic your sidekick has started.

[ozmujaheed]

Prog has been planted to distract the discussions...kothar want to confuse the fragile abdes who might be reading so that they do not start doubting the kothar instructions.

Have you seen any rationale responses, no ...the aim is why bother wining the debate , just spoil the match! N.o winners or losers!

[SBM]

Proggies have a big problem with the killing of wild animals. My question to them is, why kill any animals at all? Is it all right to kill cattle but not ok to kill wild animals? You might say that we have to kill cattle for sustenance but killing wild animals is only for entertainment. But killing cattle is not necessary for sustenance. You guys could easily turn vegetarians. A large portion of the world population survives without killing of cattle. Why not you?

Being an E Jamaat card then I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO SADAAQA FOR MOULA LONG LIFE AND HIS SHIFA KULLI as time to time Vazarat's Farman
Also when and if I decide to do Ziyafaats for Zadaas they would refuse to accept as I will only serve VEGETABLES,

[anajmi]

Without a guide (Imam and in his absence Dai-e-Mutlaq) there is no road to deliverence.

Unfortunately, the guide that you have is a corrupt murderer of innocent animals. You aren't on the road to deliverance. You are on the road to a pit!!

[humanbeing]

Hi SBM

You are mistaken with opinion of Abdes, they boldly accept / revel / gloat in killing of animals for pleasure as proof of courage, valor and glory. If its about hunting of animals from a high powered sniper rifles from the comforts of a safari jeep. It’s a sport of high elites kings and monarchs.

Abdes bohra are ready to sacrifice any animal drop of a hat reason.

• Long Life : Dabihat
• Purchase new Property / asset : Dabihat
• Ward off Evil : Dabihat
• More Sawaab : More Dabihat

Primarily I don’t object practice of dabihat in Islam as need basis for consumption of food and medicine. But the intention of dabihat makes all the difference.

During Salgirah Season, announcements are done to do Dabihat as sadaqa for long life of sayedna sahib, although I understand the connection of sadaqa and prayer for long life, but adding this concept of zabihat adds a bit of hindu mentality akin to “Bali”

Also when I asked learned elders about intention of doing dabihat when new property or assets is purchased, I was told; it is to remove any evil influence over the property and to safeguard from such influence in future. Which also is a hindu ritualistic mentality of “Bali”

Every person who performs Hajj and returns, offers dabihat every year thereafter, and as per the financial capability the rich abde gloats in boasting number of dabihats he performs, 2 halal animal per person ! the amount of meat generated during Eid Al Adha is so much, that it leads to wastage.
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One genuine Question !

Can women perform dabihat ?

[profastian]

Hi SBM

You are mistaken with opinion of Abdes, they boldly accept / revel / gloat in killing of animals for pleasure as proof of courage, valor and glory. If its about hunting of animals from a high powered sniper rifles from the comforts of a safari jeep. It’s a sport of high elites kings and monarchs.

Abdes bohra are ready to sacrifice any animal drop of a hat reason.

• Long Life : Dabihat
• Purchase new Property / asset : Dabihat
• Ward off Evil : Dabihat
• More Sawaab : More Dabihat

Primarily I don’t object practice of dabihat in Islam as need basis for consumption of food and medicine. But the intention of dabihat makes all the difference.

During Salgirah Season, announcements are done to do Dabihat as sadaqa for long life of sayedna sahib, although I understand the connection of sadaqa and prayer for long life, but adding this concept of zabihat adds a bit of hindu mentality akin to “Bali”

Also when I asked learned elders about intention of doing dabihat when new property or assets is purchased, I was told; it is to remove any evil influence over the property and to safeguard from such influence in future. Which also is a hindu ritualistic mentality of “Bali”

Every person who performs Hajj and returns, offers dabihat every year thereafter, and as per the financial capability the rich abde gloats in boasting number of dabihats he performs, 2 halal animal per person ! the amount of meat generated during Eid Al Adha is so much, that it leads to wastage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One genuine Question !

Can women perform dabihat ?

That is the question, why do you not object to dabihat for food? You can certainly get all the proteins from pulses and legumes and fats from nuts and oils? Are wild animals worth more than cattle?

And women can certainly perform dabihat.

[anajmi]

The question is about hunting for pleasure and hunting for the sake of food. Your feet kissing ways have left you with a brain that is handicapped and unable to understand the difference between the two. You can certainly get nourishment from vegetables and becoming a vegetarian is not haraam, just like hunting animals for food is not haraam. Hunting them for the sake of pleasure is haraam.

[profastian]

The question is about hunting for pleasure and hunting for the sake of food. Your feet kissing ways have left you with a brain that is handicapped and unable to understand the difference between the two. You can certainly get nourishment from vegetables and becoming a vegetarian is not haraam, just like hunting animals for food is not haraam. Hunting them for the sake of pleasure is haraam.

So why do not you quote an ayah , as is your vaunt, explicitly stating that it is haraam.

[humanbeing]

That is the question, why do you not object to dabihat for food? You can certainly get all the proteins from pulses and legumes and fats from nuts and oils? Are wild animals worth more than cattle?

Hi Prof

Please read the article which I posted / shared in response to your query. It is also mentioned in Quran, that humans are allowed to consume what is approved halaal for consumption. It also mentions, to use such resources with austerity and respect and not indulge in extravagance.

Killing for pleasure is an extravagant act. Hunting of Animals for pleasure can be debated morally and economically as wrong.

Profastian, please you are not so naïve and innocent not to know / understand the rules of use of animals and care one has to take while performing dabihats. I have also mentioned, I don’t object Islamic slaughter of animals for consumption of food and medicinal use to its optimum levels.

Even the commercial slaughter of animals take care of this morality, and each and every part of animal is used for consumption.

Animals used for dabihats are taken in great respect and care. And are slaughtered and used in name of Allah. Feeding hungry mouths and usable by human kinds.

[profastian]

That is the question, why do you not object to dabihat for food? You can certainly get all the proteins from pulses and legumes and fats from nuts and oils? Are wild animals worth more than cattle?

Hi Prof

Please read the article which I posted / shared in response to your query. It is also mentioned in Quran, that humans are allowed to consume what is approved halaal for consumption. It also mentions, to use such resources with austerity and respect and not indulge in extravagance.

Killing for pleasure is an extravagant act. Hunting of Animals for pleasure can be debated morally and economically as wrong.

Profastian, please you are not so naïve and innocent not to know / understand the rules of use of animals and care one has to take while performing dabihats. I have also mentioned, I don’t object Islamic slaughter of animals for consumption of food and medicinal use to its optimum levels.Yes islam allows it, but i thought the proggies want to debate the reasoning for each and every prohibition and allowance by Islam. Killing animals for food is certainly debatable. There are equal reasons for/against killing wild animals and cattle.
(Try debating with a vegetarian)
Even the commercial slaughter of animals take care of this morality, and each and every part of animal is used for consumption.

Animals used for dabihats are taken in great respect and care. So are animals for hunting. Have you heard that animals were mal treated in one of Syedna's hunting trip? And are slaughtered and used in name of Allah. Feeding hungry mouths and usable by human kinds.

[anajmi]

So why do not you quote an ayah , as is your vaunt, explicitly stating that it is haraam.

Can you quote an ayah from the Quran that your Dai is infallible?

[anajmi]

The Quran tells us to obey Allah and obey the prophet (saw). The prophet (saw) has clearly prohibited the hunting of animals for pleasure. I can quote many hadiths like humanbeing did but abde idiots won't understand. There are ayahs in the Quran talking about animals but again, dumb abdes won't be able to make the connection because of the damage done to their brains by the Dai.

So let me reiterate, hunting animals for the sake of pleasure is haraam in Islam. If you want an ayah from the Quran, first show me an ayah that says that your Dai is infallible. If you cannot, that means the Dai is not infallible. Hence you abde idiots are doomed.

[Rationalist]

When a zabeehat is performed, one is supposed to eat that animal. The meat of the animal is being used. al Muayyad explains in al Majalis al Muayyadiyah, that when a human eats an animal, it becomes a part of him; his flesh. Thus, zabeehat enables heightening of the nature of that animal, it becomes human.

Hunting for leisure does not serve the same purpose. In fact, recreational hunting is forbidden. Prophet said "whoever shoots at a living creature for sport is cursed."
He is also reported to have said:
"There is no man who kills even a sparrow or anything smaller, without its deserving it, but God will question him about it"

[Muslim First]

When a zabeehat is performed, one is supposed to eat that animal. The meat of the animal is being used. al Muayyad explains in al Majalis al Muayyadiyah, that when a human eats an animal, it becomes a part of him; his flesh. Thus, zabeehat enables heightening of the nature of that animal, it becomes human.

Hunting for leisure does not serve the same purpose. In fact, recreational hunting is forbidden. Prophet said "whoever shoots at a living creature for sport is cursed."
He is also reported to have said:
"There is no man who kills even a sparrow or anything smaller, without its deserving it, but God will question him about it"

br Rational
You are talking to Abdrs and their rulers. This people do not believe in Prophetic Ahadith. They use Ahadith only when it serves their purpose. They do not give sheet about Hadith on killing animals for Sports.

[ghulam muhammed]

I had posted the below mentioned article on another thread but as the same is relevant to this thread Iam reposting it once again :-

RELIGION & ETHICS: Importance of Animals in Islam
By Nilofar Ahmed

“He is the One who created for you all that is in the earth.” (Quran: 2: 29)


Islam sets the creation of animals at a very high pedestal. However, time and again, Muslims have refused to acknowledge this importance. It seems that this verse has been widely misunderstood by Muslims. When somebody is gifted with something, he is supposed to cherish, nurture and take care of that gift and is not to misuse or destroy it. But it seems that generally Muslims are not inclined to cherish and protect the innumerable species of animals gifted to them in this world.


There are six surahs in the Quran whose titles are based on the names of animals. Besides, the mention of animals is found throughout the Book. In Surah Al-Anaam it is said, “There is no animal walking on the earth nor a bird flying on its two wings, except that they are (part of) communities like you” (6: 38). God, in His infinite wisdom, has organized even the most humble of creatures, like the birds, the bees and the ants into communities so that they can work, communicate and survive according to strict ethical and organizational rules, without any deviation. All the creatures in the world, including the animals, glorify their Lord and “sing His praises” (17: 44). The living sing with their tongues, while the non-living with the tacit acquiescence of their condition.


Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is reported to have said that if the smallest of birds is killed without its right and thrown away, this act will be questioned as a crime. He explained that the right of any animal was that it should be slaughtered, only in case of the need for food, by asking God’s permission through performing zibah in the prescribed manner (Mishkat). The hunting of animals simply for pleasure derived from a sharp-shooting spree is not considered lawful. He also instructed that the knife for slaughter should be sharp so that the animal does not suffer. Once, during a camp, somebody lighted a fire near an ant-hill. He at once asked for it to be put off. Once somebody caught two little baby birds whose mother started to circle above them with cries of pain. When the Prophet saw this, he asked the person to set them free (Bukhari).


The Prophet once related the story of the person who specially went down a well in order to quench the thirst of a thirsty dog. At the Conquest of Makkah the Prophet led an army of ten thousand men. On the way he saw a female dog nursing its puppies. He was afraid that someone might tease or disturb her, so he appointed one of his men to stand guard until the whole army had passed. He said that treating any and every living creature with kindness is a case for reward (Bukhari).


The Prophet forbade the hitting of animals on their faces and branding them (Abu Dawud). He forbade sports based on animal fights (Abu Dawud). The Prophet instructed his followers to let the animals take advantage of the greenery on the way, but to make them move fast in dry weather, to shorten their agony (Muslim). The Prophet affectionately gave the title of ‘Abu Hurairah,’ meaning ‘father of cats,’ to one of his companions because he was fond of cats and carried them around in his sleeve.


Once a pilgrim puts on the ihram and makes the intention for the umrah or the hajj, the pilgrim enters a state of consecration, in which certain lawful things become unlawful (5: 97). The killing of animals, no matter how small becomes unlawful in the area of the sanctuary (5: 95-97), which is about 50,000 sq km around the Ka’aba.


The Quran mentions some of the great signs of nature: “… in your creation and in the spreading of the animals are signs for those who possess firm faith” (45: 4). The importance of the creation of human beings is equated with the importance of the creation of animals. Belief in the importance of animals is a sign of firm faith.


Prophet Nuh was asked to build a large boat under divine instructions: “Construct a boat under Our supervision and by Our inspiration” (11: 38). The ones to be saved from the flood were the believers as well as a pair of every species of animals: “… We said, ‘Load aboard (animals), of every pair two… And (load) those who have come to believe”(11: 40). The command to save the animals came before the command to save the believers, pointing to the importance of the animals who had become endangered species.


The Quran relates the story of the Thamud, Prophet Salih’s nation, to whom he had been sent to call towards the One God and to supervise the equitable distribution of their means of subsistence. They reached an agreement that the people and the she-camel, who was sent as a miracle from God, would take turns to consume the water. They were also asked to share the pastures. “Indeed, there has come to you a miracle from your Lord, this is God’s she-camel, a clear sign. Let her graze freely in God’s earth. Do not touch her with bad intentions, or you will get caught in painful retribution” (6: 73). But they broke their promise and killed her (7: 77-78). Since the whole nation had colluded in this, the whole nation was destroyed. The immediate and obvious cause of their destruction was that they harmed a she-camel.


Prophet Sulaiman had recruited animals in his army and the hoopoe acted as his courier. Prophet Yunus left his people in despair even before God commanded him to leave his nation. On the way, he was thrown out of the boat and a whale swallowed him. The whale carried him in its belly for a long time, keeping its mouth open, allowing him to breathe fresh air. He kept repenting and asking God for forgiveness. Finally, the fish threw him out onto a piece of land. Here the fish plays the central role of a savior for a prophet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[humanbeing]

Yes islam allows it, but i thought the proggies want to debate the reasoning for each and every prohibition and allowance by Islam. Killing animals for food is certainly debatable. There are equal reasons for/against killing wild animals and cattle.
(Try debating with a vegetarian)

Hi Profastian

As far as I know, Progressive or any sensible person has objection with hunting of animals for pleasure. In Islam or otherwise, hunting of animal for sport is detested.

Killing animals for food / use is certainly debatable with vegetarians ! but we are not vegetarians ! so when you meet vegetarian you can debate with them.

So are animals for hunting. Have you heard that animals were mal treated in one of Syedna's hunting trip?

Aiming an animal roaming around in his jungle with no threat or use to human was shot dead by a high powered rifle, and then sayedna saheb posed over his dead body. No ! I don’t think so animal were maltreated in sayedna’s hunting trip. They were just killed !! Its not maltreatment !

[mmv]

Hatim Glass Udhana Hadiyah Araz of Spacial Crystal Glass work to Aqa Moula TUS in Surat.
and the Hadiyah is "Rifle"
http://www.zeninfosys.net/zi6/akhbar/hu ... urat/15781

[Muslim First]

Rich and industrious Bohras could do this kind of charity for poor Bohras insted of falling over each other in giving unique and expensive Hadia to Maulana.

See this clip in Dawn

One man’s pension fund; hundreds educated
http://www.dawn.com/2012/03/22/one-mans ... cated.html

[Rationalist]

Silence from Orthodox Bohras.

On a lighter note, let me try to give an explanation. which would certainly justify Dai's actions and denounce progressives. Dai loves killing animals for sport, it pleases him. Whatever pleases him, pleases Imam, whatever pleases Imam will please Prophet and will eventually please Allah. So questioning it will be considered questioning something which pleases Allah. And questioning what pleases Allah is Shirk/Kufr. Therefore, progressives are kuffar/mushrekeen. Khuda ni lanat a misal na dushmano par

[ozmujaheed]

Rationalist can you prove where it is written whatever pleases him pleases imam , etc

Anyone one can say that but that does not make it right or true.

[Rationalist]

Rationalist can you prove where it is written whatever pleases him pleases imam , etc

Anyone one can say that but that does not make it right or true.

That's the whole point. I was being sarcastic. There's no such thing as whatever pleases Dai pleases Imam. It's all instilled in the brainwashed brains of Orthodox Bohras.