Molana Aadam (a) - Dawoodi Bohra Perspective

[badrijanab]

Allah says in the Quran that the prophet (saw) does nothing that is not the will of Allah.

The prophet (saw) has never made an error that was not corrected by Allah immediately.

Look your second statement in the light of your first statement - how Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. can commit errors at first place when he does nothing that is not the will of Allah?
(FYI: all agrees that Allah do not commit error).

[anajmi]

Read my entire post. Do not pick and choose statements out of context.

Allah does not commit error. But the prophet (saw) is not Allah. He was a human and humans make mistake. But the difference is that the prophet (saw) was guided by Allah throught Jibraeel (as). We all know the story (you might deny it because of idol worshipping tendencies), the jews came to the prophet (saw) with a question and the prophet (saw) asked them to come the next day. He forgot to say inshaAllah. Wahi didn't come for 15 days and then the ayah came about never saying you will do something without saying inshaAllah. Chew on that for a few days. It is difficult for idol worshippers to grasp how that is possible, but it is!! Even in the mistakes that the prophet (saw) made, there is a lesson for us.

[anajmi]

People have asked before, if everything is Allah's will then why did he allow the Tsunami to kill hundreds of thousands of people. Think about it.

Since everything is Allah's will, he doesn't need an infallible human!!

Having said that, the recent dogma changes indicate that Bukhari and Muslim are flawless as per 5:55.

[porus]

Allah says in the Quran that the prophet (saw) does nothing that is not the will of Allah.

Allah 'willed' Prophet to say to the Jews: "Come to-morrow"

Muhammad said to the Jews: "Come to-morrow"

Allah says to Muhammad: "Why did you not say 'Inshallah'?

Muhammad says to Allah: "I just told them what you told me to tell them. And I thought that that was your wish. Surely, 'Inshallah' is redundant. Do you change your mind often or are you as error-prone and forgetful as humans?

Allah says to Muhammad: "Boy, you have got a point there. After all, I made you such that you will not do anything against my will. If I had willed you to say "Inshallah", you surely would have said that. Sorry, I goofed up. I will never chide you again!!

Muhammad says to Allah: "Good grief! You did not make an error in sending me the aayaat of the Quran, did you?"

Allah say to Muhammad: "Now come to think of it, maybe........"

[anajmi]

badrijanab,

Before you like something you need to understand it.

porus is scraping the bottom of the barrel. And thank you for proving my point that even though Allah made the prophet (saw) an "infallible", he still ends up making mistakes. The only difference being, the shia idol worshippers end up blaming Allah for their idol's mistakes. Idol Worship at its best!!

[anajmi]

Here are the ayahs

18:23 AND NEVER say about anything, "Behold, I shall do this tomorrow
18:24 without (adding], "if God so wills." And if thou shouldst forget thyself at the time, and become aware of it later], call thy Sustainer to mind and say: "I pray that my Sustainer guide me, even closer than this, to a consciousness of what is right!"

Allah says - And if thou shouldst forget thyself at the time - Why?? Did Allah forget that he had created an infallible prophet (saw) who doesn't forget?

Now both you idol worshippers chew on it for a few days and then come back. Oh but wait....maybe...Allah is addressing Umar or Uthman or Abu Bakr over here eh!!

[anajmi]

Some more ayahs that will drive the idol worshippers nuts.

93:1 CONSIDER the bright morning hours
93:2 and the night when it grows still and dark.
93:3 Thy Sustainer has not forsaken thee, nor does He scorn thee:
93:4 for, indeed, the life to come will be better for thee than this earlier part [of thy life]!
93:5 And, indeed, in time will thy Sustainer grant thee [what thy heart desires], and thou shalt be well-pleased.
93:6 Has He not found thee an orphan, and given thee shelter?
93:7 And found thee lost on thy way, and guided thee?
93:8 And found thee in want, and given thee sufficiency?
93:9 Therefore, the orphan shalt thou never wrong,
93:10 and him that seeks [thy] help shalt thou never chide,
93:11 and of thy Sustainer's blessings shalt thou [ever] speak.


WHOA!!!! Lost??? The infallible prophet (saw) was lost on his way and had to be guided!!! Surely, this is not the Quran because "that" is the Quran. Thank god for pesticide's interpretation!! Or, these ayahs are referring to Utham, Umar and Abu Bakr and since we refer to them as rightly guided, I guess it all works out.

[porus]

Oh but wait....maybe...Allah is addressing Umar or Uthman or Abu Bakr over here eh!!

Finally, the Wahhabi talks some sense!

And how about this from God almighty?

Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger,
Endued with Power, with rank before the Lord of the Throne,
With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust.
And (O people!) your companion is not one possessed;
And without doubt he saw him in the clear horizon.
Neither doth he withhold grudgingly a knowledge of the Unseen.
Nor is it the word of an evil spirit accursed.
When whither go ye?

Surat at-takweer (81:19-26) [Yusufali translation]

[anajmi]

Well, so the shias have to accept the fact that Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman are rightly guided. A lot of the ayahs of the Quran are referring to them. Apparently the Quran was revealed to guide them, since the prophet (saw) doesn't need any guidance, being infallible and all!!

It is now also clear, as per the idol worshipper interpretation of the Quran, that surah kahf was revealed to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman and not to the prophet (saw)!!

[Muslim First]

Muslim First and Peace, we are trying to present good quality research paper on this form on subject of Imamat. Inshalla. It may take some time, please bear.

In mean time below for your kind perusal -

As far as I personally am concerned nobody is Masoom except when Allah gives them knowledge, in case of Prophet SAW thru 'Wahi'.

It means Hz. Bukhari and Hz. Muslim too are not masoom (as there is no record of them receiving any 'wahi') thus they are subject to committing errors in collecting and categorizing their 'Sahih'. So, sunnat based on their Sahih too is subjected to mistakes! Hence, their followers cannot claim to be on "Authentic Sunnat", can they?

According to your contention, the Quranic part of Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. was 100% flawless because that was guided by 'wahi'. It means, his non-Quranic part i.e. regular course of Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. daily life; i.e. his doing and saying (which we terms as 'Sunnat') too are subjected to errors - should you ditto copy Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. then also you are subject to error (per your contention / Sunni's dogma)!!! Hence, you cannot claim following "Authentic Sunnat" when Prophet s.a.w.w. himself at first place per Sunni dogma is subjected to committing errors! Things get further worsned:- Sunni brothers have records of Prophet s.a.w.w. Sunnat 200 years after Prophet via Hz. Bukhari and Hz. Muslim who too are subjected to committing errors about Prophet Mohammed Sunnat which too is subjected to errors per Muslim First sahab contention & Sunni dogmas!!!

Brother & friends Sunni's are not following "Authentic Sunnat"! Are they?

Br Badrijanab
I have posted a Sunni Hadith about Prophet was asked about planting date saplings and planting was done as told. Saplings did not take. Prophet said he is not infallible in dunwai matters.

This is my memory of that Hadith.

2 poits
You do not believe in Sunni Ahadith unless it proves or support Shia Madhab. So it is useless to debate with you.
Second, If you wish I will search that Hadith. I am sure brother porus remembers it. He does not miss anything.

BTW which book of Ahadith you read and think most Authentic? And where can I buy it?

Your scholarly essay better be only Quran. Issue of Imamat is very big and one must see clear Aya supporting it.

And how about Hadit of Al-kisa?

Bibi Aisha was only witness and narrator. She is a liar as per your religion.
Wasalaam

[porus]

Well, so the shias have to accept the fact that Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman are rightly guided. A lot of the ayahs of the Quran are referring to them.

They were rightly guided for sure. But did they act according to the 'right guidance? I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you may be correct in your assertion about the 'ayahs'. However, without referring to asbaab an-nuzool, can you identify those ayats where Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman are mentioned by name?

Apparently the Quran was revealed to guide them, since the prophet (saw) doesn't need any guidance, being infallible and all!!

Quran was revealed to guide all of mankind. However, only the Prophet and ahlul bayt took the guidance to heart in accordance with Allah's will. They are the ones referred to in the Quran as such. No 'rijs' = Perfectly guided and seen to be guided by Allah.

[porus]

Brother Muslim First,

In all the saheeh hadith, is a Shia named in isnad?

With regard to Shia compilations, they originate from Imams of Ahlul bayt. Shia only point out Sunni hadith to Sunnis in debate. Among themselves, they do not consider them. Shia hadith have been compiled and related continuously from the time of the Prophet, unlike Sunni hadith which were compiled long after the Khilafat of Ali ibn Abi Talib.

Hadith of Ahlul Kisaa has come down to the Shia from Ali ibn Abi Talib and his progeny. It is just to show that not all Shia hadith are fake. At least those that agree with Sunni hadith ought to be considered, and are considered, by Sunnis to be authentic.

[porus]

It is now also clear, as per the idol worshipper interpretation of the Quran, that surah kahf was revealed to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman and not to the prophet (saw)!!

Conduct unbecoming for a self-proclaimed authority of the Quran.

[anajmi]

However, without referring to asbaab an-nuzool, can you identify those ayats where Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman are mentioned by name?

huh!!! are you loosing some of your senses? I am not the one claiming that these ayahs refer to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman. You are!! you are loosing the sense to differentiate between reality and sarcasm!!

Quran was revealed to guide all of mankind. However, only the Prophet and ahlul bayt took the guidance to heart in accordance with Allah's will. They are the ones referred to in the Quran as such. No 'rijs' = Perfectly guided and seen to be guided by Allah.

Again, that is just shia interpretation which has been rubbished multiple times with dozens of different proofs from the Quran and not one of them countered by you or your other idol worshipping friends. By the way, silence is not evidence in this case!!

They were rightly guided for sure. But did they act according to the 'right guidance?

If they didn't then the prophet (saw) was not only not infallible but also a big failure. All he did was to convince 4 people of the deen and even they had to be first "purified" by Allah. So the prophet's record of bringing people to Islam stands at 0, because the sunnis are not shia and the shia turned out to be idol worshippers!!

Conduct unbecoming for a self-proclaimed authority of the Quran.

I clarified that it was the idol worshipping interpretation and not mine.

Shia hadith have been compiled and related continuously from the time of the Prophet

Authenticity of these hadith has been questioned in a different thread and no shia was able to counter the evidence provided. No shia hadith can actually be considered authentic since none of the Imams are infallible after the first 5. If shia hadith are authentic because they consider their Imams to be infallible (they don't have to be infallible, just considered infallible ), then sunni hadith are also authentic because I consider Bukhari and Muslim to be infallible!!

Hadith of Ahlul Kisaa has come down to the Shia from Ali ibn Abi Talib and his progeny.

Would you be kind enough to post this hadith from shia sources that do not refer to Aisha (ra).

[Muslim First]

Hadith of Ahlul Kisaa has come down to the Shia from Ali ibn Abi Talib his progeny. It is just to show that not all Shia hadith are fake.

So it was also Hz Ali who narrated this incidence to Sahabas, and they did not narrate to non supporters or neutral supporters, since no Sunni source exists as Ali being principal narrator.

Also Al-Kassa was narrated to Children of Hz Hussain. and this sick son of Imam grew up and passed on to his progeny?

[quoteIt is just to show that not all Shia hadith are fake. [/quote]

No brother, only all Sunni Ahadith are fake except what Serve Shia purpose.
Only Shia Ahadith correct.

Since Hz Ali knew to write and read he must have put down on paper and Ismailis have hidden it somewhere. Just like ten extra chapters of Quran in possession of Marhoom Imam of Nizaris. He did Bragg about it and this farmaan is frequently mentioned in Ismaili web site.

Wasalaam

[porus]

I request that this thread be moved to Islam Today forum. Better yet, why not create a Sunni-Shia forum, where we can daily get the Shia being called idol-worshippers by the two Wahhabis on this forum? We can call it 'Bash the Shia idolators' forum.

Personally, I have had enough of these Wahhabis. Ten years is a long time!

[ahmedplumber]

I request that this thread be moved to Islam Today forum. Better yet, why not create a Sunni-Shia forum, where we can daily get the Shia being called idol-worshippers by the two Wahhabis on this forum? We can call it 'Bash the Shia idolators' forum.

Personally, I have had enough of these Wahhabis. Ten years is a long time!

[mnoorani]

I request that this thread be moved to Islam Today forum. Better yet, why not create a Sunni-Shia forum, where we can daily get the Shia being called idol-worshippers by the two Wahhabis on this forum? We can call it 'Bash the Shia idolators' forum.

Personally, I have had enough of these Wahhabis. Ten years is a long time!

I totally agree with Mr. Porus. And I second his oppinion.Please ,let there be such a forum as mentioned.

[anajmi]

where we can daily get the Shia being called idol-worshippers by the two Wahhabis on this forum?

Ironic, isn't it? Objecting to being called names by calling names!! Besides, since my head is not shaved, I am not a wahhabi.

Once in a while, I would appreciate an objective discussion instead of always descending into complaining and whining and then hiding.

Personally, I have had enough of these Wahhabis. Ten years is a long time!

Personally, you shouldn't have a problem because you have always distanced yourself from the shia beliefs. And I consider myself a big reason for that. 10 years has been worth it!!

[badrijanab]

As far as I personally am concerned nobody is Masoom except when Allah gives them knowledge, in case of Prophet SAW thru 'Wahi'.

It means Hz. Bukhari and Hz. Muslim too are not masoom (as there is no record of them receiving any 'wahi') thus they are subject to committing errors in collecting and categorizing their 'Sahih'. So, sunnat based on their Sahih too is subjected to mistakes! Hence, their followers cannot claim to be on "Authentic Sunnat", can they?

According to your contention, the Quranic part of Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. was 100% flawless because that was guided by 'wahi'. It means, his non-Quranic part i.e. regular course of Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. daily life; i.e. his doing and saying (which we terms as 'Sunnat') too are subjected to errors - should you ditto copy Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. then also you are subject to error (per your contention / Sunni's dogma)!!! Hence, you cannot claim following "Authentic Sunnat" when Prophet s.a.w.w. himself at first place per Sunni dogma is subjected to committing errors! Things get further worsned:- Sunni brothers have records of Prophet s.a.w.w. Sunnat 200 years after Prophet via Hz. Bukhari and Hz. Muslim who too are subjected to committing errors about Prophet Mohammed Sunnat which too is subjected to errors per Muslim First sahab contention & Sunni dogmas!!!

Muslim First sahab, aapke ya alike ki taraf se koi convincing answer nahi aaya against above case!

[Humsafar]

Personally, you shouldn't have a problem because you have always distanced yourself from the shia beliefs. And I consider myself a big reason for that. 10 years has been worth it!!

Woah!! You give yourself too much credit man! A little humility might make you a truer Muslim.

[anajmi]

You don't need a "true Muslim" on this forum do you?

[ghulam muhammed]

badrijanab bhai,

You seem to be having a problem with sunni hadiths as they are written by the ones who are not masum and also because they are written after 200 years of Prophet's departure from this world. According to you only shia hadiths are authentic even though the same too are written by the ones who are not masum and written much later on. Hence in that case,the authenticity of both versions are doubtful. Then why do you have problems with only the sunni hadiths ??