A Good read by Asghar Ali Engineer

[sixfeetunder]

If there is nothing more to the shia Imamat then 2:124, then I have to say that there is no concept of it in the Quran.

The doctrine of Imamate is that there is always an infallible, Divinely appointed guide amongst the human race. Sometimes this person may be a Prophet, sometimes a Messenger, and sometimes merely the inheritor of a Messenger or Prophet, but there is always such a person regardless of his particular status. This is the doctrine of Imamate, pure and simple.

Now, challenging us to prove that this doctrine is in the Qur’an is a bit like challenging someone to prove that there are trees in the forest. Next to the Oneness of God, the doctrine of constant constant human guidance is the singularly most common theme in the Holy Qur’an. It is re-iterated again and again and again. We have in our discussions on Imamate in the Qur’an cited the fact that Allah (s.w.t.) makes statements such as "We made from amongst them leaders who guided by Our command" (Surah as-Sajdah: 23-24), ...."We wished to make them leaders" (Surah al-Qasas : 5)., ..."(Oh Allah!) make us leaders" (Surah al-Furqan: 74).

These verses reiterate the fact that ‘Imams, ‘Khalifas’ (leaders) are selected and appointed ONLY by Allah (swt) and not MEN. This is the clear and unmistakable position of the Holy Quran on this point which has been FURTHER REINFORCED Besides the specific verses where Allah (swt) praises Himself for sending every people a guide, we also see that every historical account of the past prophets serve to emphasize this fact.

We learn from the Qur’an that always and everywhere there is a guide sent to the people. Did not Allah (swt) say:

Indeed, you are the Messenger, and to every people there is a guide.

This ayat is only summarizing one of the most singularly important themes in the Holy Qur’an: the constant, living presence of Divine guides who are not chosen by the Muslims of the time, but are appointed by God Himself. This is a reality confirmed again and again in the Qur’an, and the Sunnis are at a loss to explain why, in the middle of the seventh-century, right before a period of incredible violence and civil war, Allah (swt) stopped doing this, even though He said:

You will never find any change to the sunnah of Allah.

Source: http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/ ... /chap2.php

[anajmi]

The doctrine of Imamate is that there is always an infallible, Divinely appointed guide amongst the human race.

Then it should be very easy for you to point him out to us. Who is he?

[sixfeetunder]

The doctrine of Imamate is that there is always an infallible, Divinely appointed guide amongst the human race.

Then it should be very easy for you to point him out to us. Who is he?

We should go step by step. Otherwise we would end up going around in circles. First of all, we should be clear of our intention of debate. Is the intention that of one-upmanship or honest debate? If it is the former, I am not interested in answering your questions. You have asked these questions, hence I am answering. I am not attacking your faith. I am defending my understanding of Islam. If you agree, good. If you do not, leave it aside and move on.

So, first of all, you have to either agree or disagree with Imamate from Qur'an. If you agree with the evidence presented, we can go ahead. If you do not agree with Imamate from Qur'an, there is no point in telling you who the Imam is because you will only mock and ridicule instead of any constructive understanding.

So, do you agree that an infallible, divinely appointed guide should be present?

[anajmi]

So, do you agree that an infallible, divinely appointed guide should be present?

Let us not play these silly games. There is a reason why Imamat has been ridiculed and mocked for centuries. It is because of people like you. The evidence that you have presented has been disputed thoroughly. There is no point in rehashing it again. We need new evidence to prove the existence of an infallible and divinely appointed guide. What better evidence than the infallible and divinely appointed guide himself!!

Ok. I've changed my mind. I now whole heartedly believe in the evidence that you have presented and believe that an infallible, divinely appointed guide should be present. Please tell me who it is. Let us not be afraid of mocking and ridiculing. The prophet (saw) was plenty mocked and ridiculed.

[Muslim First]

So, do you agree that an infallible, divinely appointed guide should be present?

Let us not play these silly games. There is a reason why Imamat has been ridiculed and mocked for centuries. It is because of people like you. The evidence that you have presented has been disputed thoroughly. There is no point in rehashing it again. We need new evidence to prove the existence of an infallible and divinely appointed guide. What better evidence than the infallible and divinely appointed guide himself!!

Ok. I've changed my mind. I now whole heartedly believe in the evidence that you have presented and believe that an infallible, divinely appointed guide should be present. Please tell me who it is. Let us not be afraid of mocking and ridiculing. The prophet (saw) was plenty mocked and ridiculed.

Br anjmi
So called Shia of Ali has been playing games with themselves and Muslim Umma.

They are obediently following instruction of Imam Jafar who had starring role in creating this ruse of Imamat. Here is what he has been sqying

. “Nine tenths of the Religion consists of taqīyyah; whoever does not practice this has no Religion; Taqīyyah is part of my Religion and that of my ancestors; whoever does not keep taqīyyah is devoid of Faith.- Imam Ja‘far al-Ṣādiq,
(Muhammad Ali Amir-Moezzi, The Divine Guide in Early Shi‘ism, 129. )

6'U is expert in this art of deception.
12ver deserve their ever living Imam and will worship at graves, Imambaras, Aalams. Cribs and punjas till quyamt.
Bohras deserve Dais and kOTHAR and will spend ta Quyamat paying taxes. kissing feets etc., and enjoying Jaamas everyday.
Ismailis deserve their Europian Imam and Noorani (white) family and sing refrain. Do not do what Imam does, do what he says and usually he says sweet nothing.

[someone]

Let us not play these silly games. There is a reason why Imamat has been ridiculed and mocked for centuries. It is because of people like you. The evidence that you have presented has been disputed thoroughly. There is no point in rehashing it again. We need new evidence to prove the existence of an infallible and divinely appointed guide. What better evidence than the infallible and divinely appointed guide himself!!

Ok. I've changed my mind. I now whole heartedly believe in the evidence that you have presented and believe that an infallible, divinely appointed guide should be present. Please tell me who it is. Let us not be afraid of mocking and ridiculing. The prophet (saw) was plenty mocked and ridiculed.

Br anjmi
So called Shia of Ali has been playing games with themselves and Muslim Umma.

They are obediently following instruction of Imam Jafar who had starring role in creating this ruse of Imamat. Here is what he has been sqying

. “Nine tenths of the Religion consists of taqīyyah; whoever does not practice this has no Religion; Taqīyyah is part of my Religion and that of my ancestors; whoever does not keep taqīyyah is devoid of Faith.- Imam Ja‘far al-Ṣādiq,
(Muhammad Ali Amir-Moezzi, The Divine Guide in Early Shi‘ism, 129. )

6'U is expert in this art of deception.
12ver deserve their ever living Imam and will worship at graves, Imambaras, Aalams. Cribs and punjas till quyamt.
Bohras deserve Dais and kOTHAR and will spend ta Quyamat paying taxes. kissing feets etc., and enjoying Jaamas everyday.
Ismailis deserve their Europian Imam and Noorani (white) family and sing refrain. Do not do what Imam does, do what he says and usually he says sweet nothing.

Br. Muslim First. I don't know if your intention is to mock Imam Jafar, but remember the founders of the Maliki and Hanafi madhabs were students of Imam Jafar and respected him highly. The founder of the Shafi madhab was a student of a student (Malik) of Imam Jafar.

[pheonix]

Br anjmi
So called Shia of Ali has been playing games with themselves and Muslim Umma.

They are obediently following instruction of Imam Jafar who had starring role in creating this ruse of Imamat. Here is what he has been sqying
6'U is expert in this art of deception.
12ver deserve their ever living Imam and will worship at graves, Imambaras, Aalams. Cribs and punjas till quyamt.
Bohras deserve Dais and kOTHAR and will spend ta Quyamat paying taxes. kissing feets etc., and enjoying Jaamas everyday.
Ismailis deserve their Europian Imam and Noorani (white) family and sing refrain. Do not do what Imam does, do what he says and usually he says sweet nothing.

Br. Muslim First. I don't know if your intention is to mock Imam Jafar, but remember the founders of the Maliki and Hanafi madhabs were students of Imam Jafar and respected him highly. The founder of the Shafi madhab was a student of a student (Malik) of Imam Jafar.

Muslim First is the resident idiot on the forum. All his statements can be safely ignored.

[Muslim First]

. Br. Muslim First. I don't know if your intention is to mock Imam Jafar, but remember the founders of the Maliki and Hanafi madhabs were students of Imam Jafar and respected him highly. The founder of the Shafi madhab was a student of a student (Malik) of Imam Jafar.

I do not even know which Shia Ahadith are true or not. It is debatable if 2 Imams were his students or not.
If I ask you you will not give Me straight answer.

Why Prophet did not proclame Ali as Imam in Mecca in front of whole Umma but at Gadhir in front of Muslims returning to vicinity of Madina?

[Muslim First]

Here is Sunni Shia wersions

Imam Abu Hanifa being the student of Imam Jafar?
Sunni
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthr ... Imam-Jafar

Shia
http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/ ... /index.php

Now what difference it makes if he was student or not?

As per Imam Jaffar 9/10 of his Islam is taqiya and I translate it as deception.

Wasalaam

[humble_servant_us]

As per Imam Jaffar 9/10 of his Islam is taqiya and I translate it as deception.

You sound arrogant. It is your hatred towards shias which clearly reflects here. Imam jaffer sadiq(as) is a highly revered personality in Shia and sunni school of thought and to insult him is not humane.

[mnoorani]

As per Imam Jaffar 9/10 of his Islam is taqiya and I translate it as deception.

You sound arrogant. It is your hatred towards shias which clearly reflects here. Imam jaffer sadiq(as) is a highly revered personality in Shia and sunni school of thought and to insult him is not humane.

Vaat nathi have imaan ni,
Jasbo nathi have Islaami.
Wahhabi fiqh na talab gaar,
Thai gaya che qaum na pehredaar.

[Muslim First]

Br HSU
Can you answer this

Why Prophet did not proclame Ali as Imam in Mecca in front of whole Umma but at Gadhir in front of Muslims returning to vicinity of Madina?

[humble_servant_us]

Why Prophet did not proclame Ali as Imam in Mecca in front of whole Umma but at Gadhir in front of Muslims returning to vicinity of Madina?

A stupid question. Rather than thinking on what happened, you are breaking your brains on something which didn't happen. Event of ghadeer is one of the most documented works in shia and sunni books.

http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/incident.htm

By the way , even if prophet(pbuh) would have declared him in Mecca, still you would not have accepted Ali(as) as imam.

[Muslim First]

A stupid question. Rather than thinking on what happened, you are breaking your brains on something which didn't happen. Event of ghadeer is one of the most documented works in shia and sunni books.

Typical non answer

Answer it

By the way , even if prophet(pbuh) would have declared him in Mecca, still you would not have accepted Ali(as) as imam.

We know him and address him as Imam Ali, Khalifa rashidun. We accord all honors and consider him first among equals.
We do nor worship him.

[ahmedplumber]

Br HSU
Can you answer this

Why Prophet did not proclame Ali as Imam in Mecca in front of whole Umma but at Gadhir in front of Muslims returning to vicinity of Madina?

First of all, let me assume that you accept that this incident happened! If not, then there is no sence in continuing this conversation with you because it is a non-issue as far as you are concerned.

And secondly, now that you accept it, let me get my trusty time-machine yanked up again and go back 1400+ years ago and ask RasulAllah (SAW), myself

Give me some time, the wheels of time in my time machine need to start moving

[Muslim First]

Plumber Saheb, AS

Do you have some Teflon impragned grease in your tool box. It will work wonders in greasing wheels.

[ahmedplumber]

Plumber Saheb, AS

Do you have some Teflon impragned grease in your tool box. It will work wonders in greasing wheels.

MF saab, WAS,

no, i am hoping some spit and polish should work fine

[humble_servant_us]

We know him and address him as Imam Ali, Khalifa rashidun. We accord all honors and consider him first among equals. We do nor worship him.

Neither do we worship him.

[porus]

Shia: We art told that the first ayat revealed to Muhammad was "iqra bismi rabbik al-aladhi khalaqa". Do you believe that?

Muslim First (MF): Undoubtedly. It is in the Quran for all to see. And the incident is well documented in the Wahhabi sources.

Shia: I am told that Muhammad initially mentioned this only to his wife Khadija. We are told that there were no other Muslims on the planet and that Khadija became the first Muslim AFTER HEARING HER HUSBAND,Muhammad. Do you believe that?

MF: Of course. That is well documented in the Wahhabi sources.

Shia: Why did not Muhammad go and tell all Makkans that he had received a revelation?

MF: That is because there were no Muslims then. No one would have believed him?

Shia: Why do you think Khadija trusted him?

MF: I do not know. I will have to consult my Wahhabi teachers. She was a woman and therefore as low as cattle in my estimation which is according to my Wahhabi teachers..

Shia: So, how many people did Muhammad reveal the ayat to, you think?

MF: A few trustworthy ones like Abu Sufyan and Ameer Muawiya (radiyallahu anhum).

Shia: So you trust Muhammad because a handful of those who converted to Islam accepted that Muhammad had revealed an ayat to them?

MF: Yes. They were not Shia though. So it is alright to accept.

Shia: Yet you would accept Muhammad if he had given the speech he gave at Ghadeer to all Muslims in Makka instead, even though there were no Shia then?

MF: No, I would not accept that speech unless my Wahhabi teachers approved of it, no matter where Muhammad delivered it.

Shia: O, why is that?

MF: I never trust Muhammad when he has anything to say about Ali or Fatima, or Hasan or Husain?

Shia: Why?

MF: Because the only true teachers of Islam are those trained in my Wahhabi watan and they do not believe any bullshit from Shia. And believe me. All that Shia say is bullshit. I have never met Muhammad but I do meet my Wahhabi teacher all the time. He feeds me the nectar of heavens.

[anajmi]

Actually, after the first ayah was revealed, the prophet (saw) himself had no idea what just happened. There would've been no sense is telling it to all makkans. His wife was the nearest to him. She took him to a kaahin to help him understand what had happened. You would want to read the seerah of the prophet (saw).

Yet you would accept Muhammad if he had given the speech he gave at Ghadeer to all Muslims in Makka instead, even though there were no Shia then?

That is a loaded question. It is like asking if Shias would've accepted Imamat if karbala had never happened. The prophet (saw) probably didn't choose to give the speech at ghadeer. If he had a choice, he would've probably given the speech at Mecca. He probably had to give the speech at ghadeer for the reasons mentioned by the "wahhabi" author.

The important thing to note is that certain things happened before the speech at ghadeer. Are they related? Allah o Alam. Did Ali succeed the prophet (saw)? Now that is a question that we can easily answer.

[sixfeetunder]

Why Prophet did not proclame Ali as Imam in Mecca in front of whole Umma but at Gadhir in front of Muslims returning to vicinity of Madina?

Why did Allah not make the Prophet live for 100 years, so that Islam would spread even farther? Why did Allah not send Muhammad (saw) on a world-tour to every country, so that the original Islam would be spread first-hand everywhere? and X and Y and Z....

As HSU correctly mentioned, why break your head on something that did not happen? Let us stick to what happened.

[Muslim First]

Very funny br porus

Now see if you can answer this
Why Prophet did not proclame Ali as Imam in Mecca in front of whole Umma during hajjatul vida but at Gadhir in front of Muslims returning to vicinity of Madina?

JAK in advance

[sixfeetunder]

So, do you agree that an infallible, divinely appointed guide should be present?

Let us not play these silly games. There is a reason why Imamat has been ridiculed and mocked for centuries. It is because of people like you. The evidence that you have presented has been disputed thoroughly. There is no point in rehashing it again. We need new evidence to prove the existence of an infallible and divinely appointed guide. What better evidence than the infallible and divinely appointed guide himself!!

Ok. I've changed my mind. I now whole heartedly believe in the evidence that you have presented and believe that an infallible, divinely appointed guide should be present. Please tell me who it is. Let us not be afraid of mocking and ridiculing. The prophet (saw) was plenty mocked and ridiculed.

Concept of Imaamat has only been mocked by Wahhabis. Mainstream Sunnis and Shias agree on concept of Imaamat and also agree that Maula Ali is the spiritual Imam of Muslims. That is why he is known as 'pir of pirs' among Sufi Sunnis. Sunnis may not agree on the 12 imams but Imaamat as a concept of leadership is accepted by all Muslims. Mainstream Sunnis respect twelver imams and consider them to be the finest persons of their respective times. You can watch Tahir-ul-Qadri on youtube. The theme of imaamat is found everywhere in the Quran. Imaamat (leadership) was deemed so important, that a few of your starry companions left the burial of the Holy Prophet to appoint an imaam for themselves!

The Prophet was mocked and ridiculed by the kaafireen and not by his fellow Muslims. But you Wahhabis have lost the spirit of Islam and don't think twice before ridiculing or calling other Muslims all sorts of names. You are here on this forum only to mock and ridicule. You ask for proofs. When presented, you say: What rubbish! There is no constructive analysis or understanding. So why should I waste my time?

[anajmi]

Instead of wasting your time with that rhetoric, you could've just told me who the infallible, divinely appointed Imam is. Now that you believe that Imamat as a concept of leadership is accepted by all Muslims, please tell me who the infallible, divinely appointed Imam is. Thanks.

[Muslim First]

Mainstream Sunnis and Shias agree on concept of Imaamat and also agree that Maula Ali is the spiritual Imam of Muslims.

Can you show me one MM website agreeing concept of divine Imamat after Prophet.

The theme of imaamat is found everywhere in the Quran.

Please post a Aya of Quran which point to this theme after Prophet or says something like this
"O Prophet after you a member of your family will lead and guide MUslims ta quyamat."

The theme of imaamat is found everywhere in the Quran.

Please post a Aya of Quran which says
"O Prophet after you a member of your family will lead and guide MUslims ta quyamat."

I do not think you guys read my question and avoid answer.

Let me try again

Why It Just Doesn’t Make Sense

The Shia claim that the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) completed his last Hajj, said his Farewell Sermon atop Mount Arafat in Mecca, and then afterwards appointed Ali (رضّى الله عنه) at Ghadir Khumm. Let us analyze this claim: Ghadir Khumm is located between Mecca and Medinah, near the city of Al-Juhfah, as mentioned by the Al-Islam.org website. It is a watering hole in the middle of the desert. The coup de grâceto the Shia argument is the fact that Ghadir Khumm is located approximately 250 km away from Mecca. This simple fact is enough to shatter the entire premise of Shi’ism.

As we all know, the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) delivered his Farewell Sermon in Mecca during his last Hajj. This was in front of the great majority of the Muslims, who had come from all of the various cities to do Hajj. If the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) wanted to appoint Ali (رضّى الله عنه) as his successor, then there is absolutely no cognizable explanation why the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) did not do this during his Farewell Sermon to all of the Muslims. The entire Muslim Ummah was gathered there to hear his parting words, so surely this would be the most appropriate time and opportunity to appoint a successor.

The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) and the Muslims completed their Hajj after which everyone went back to their respective home cities. The people of Medinah went back to Medinah, the people of Taif went back to Taif, the people of Yemen went back to Yemen, the people of Kufa went back to Kufa, the people of Syria went back to Syria, and the people of Mecca stayed put in Mecca.

It was only the group that lived in cities in the North of the Arabian Peninsula that passed by Ghadir Khumm. This would consist of only those who were heading towards Medinah and the minority of Muslims that lived in places such as Syria. Therefore, when the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) stopped at Ghadir Khumm and the supposed incident happened, a great number of the Muslims were not present including those living in Mecca, Taif, Yemen, etc. After the Hajj, the Meccans stayed behind in Mecca, the people of Taif went back to Taif, the people of Kufa went back to Kufa, the people of Yemen went back to Yemen, etc. Only the group going to Medinah (or passing through/near it) accompanied the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) to Ghadir Khumm.

Therefore, contrary to the claims of the Shia, the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) did not appoint Ali (رضّى الله عنه) in front of all the Muslims, but rather what happened at Ghadir Khumm happened in front of just the handful of Muslims who were heading back to Medinah (or passing through/near it).

The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) delivered his Farewell Sermon in Mecca during his last Hajj. This was in front of the great majority of the Muslims, who had come from all of the various cities to do Hajj. If the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) wanted to appoint Ali (رضّى الله عنه) as his successor, then there is absolutely no cognizable explanation why the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) did not do this during his Farewell Sermon to all of the Muslims. The entire Muslim Ummah was gathered there to hear his parting words, so surely this would be the most appropriate time and opportunity to appoint a successor.

Can you guys address this?

[porus]

Now see if you can answer this
Why Prophet did not proclame Ali as Imam in Mecca in front of whole Umma during hajjatul vida but at Gadhir in front of Muslims returning to vicinity of Madina?

why the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) did not do this during his Farewell Sermon to all of the Muslims. The entire Muslim Ummah was gathered there to hear his parting words, so surely this would be the most appropriate time and opportunity to appoint a successor.[/b]

Yes. This bothered me a lot until I found an explanation. Muslim First was not there to advise the Prophet.

It bothered me that Quran was sent to Muhammad when no one was around. God should have had a global live TV set up to show Jibraeel coming from Him to deliver the message to Muhammad. Then, Muhammad himself would have given the speech and delivered the Quran to all live in one sitting. Instead we had the spectacle of countless persecutions and battles and much shedding of blood to convince people to become Muslims.

Since the Quran was not delivered to the whole Umma all at once, we can safely ignore it as a Shia fiction!! Especially as Abdul Wahhab was not there to verify it.

[anajmi]

The thing to note is that there is no answer to the question that Muslim First has raised. This in turn gives weight to the reasons for which the line was delivered in Ghadeer and not in Mecca.

[SBM]

Even though I stay out of these discussions but I wonder:
Since Prophet did not do anything unless advised by Allah thru Jibreel, Is it possible that he was not told do the same in Makkah, just wondering

[anajmi]

Absolutely. Which means that the message delivered at Ghadeer was not meant for all muslims.

[porus]

Even though I stay out of these discussions but I wonder:
Since Prophet did not do anything unless advised by Allah thru Jibreel, Is it possible that he was not told do the same in Makkah, just wondering

Absolutely. Which means that the message delivered at Ghadeer was not meant for all muslims.

Absolutely. Since both the Quran and the entire Hadith corpus was not presented to the entire Ummat at once, we can dismiss them both as Shia fiction.