Reverting help needed!!!

[mtz9540]

Salam Forum Brothers,
I read this forum a lot and like a lot of facts revealing the flaws of Dawoodi Brohra as well other muslim sects. And i have come up with a personal problem.
My name is murtaza and i am a Dawoodi bohra. I am about to marry a girl who is currently a hindu and would be reverted to Dawoodi Bohra. I know her since over 7 yrs and i faith her she would accept the religion with faith truth and follow accordingly as a moderate dawoodi bohra as well. But the problem Arise with the matter of FGC (Female Genital circumcision) (Female Sunnat) either me nor She is ready to go through it. And as well my family understands it well. But per the sheer Dawoodi bohra customs its very much mandatory. I want to know if there is some way out i could keep both things right at its place and get her reversion with her going through a terrible situation. Honestly this question has reached to such seriousness that neither its a question of us walking away on different paths nor she can just readily fall in for the FGC. And I don't want to kill the girl i love's selfness. Please help me with some level of light to my problems. Everyone is very much happy about our relationship my family her family relatives all know about us and like I said she is ready to come to my religion with utter faith in Allah Quran and Maulana Mohammadun Rasullulah. And i don't feel like getting married by other means. Say Getting married by the Court of Law or by muslims traditions and etc ways. I may Sound rigid but its just that way.

Thank you to anyone of you if someone can pull out time and answer to my problems.

Khuda Hafiz.

[ghulam muhammed]

Bro.mtz9540

I know of a family in Pune whose son got married around a couple of years back to a hindu girl and although she willingly converted to bohraism and took misaq but she too refused to get circumcised and the nikah was performed without she having to go through FGC. So I think its possible if your would be spouse prefers not to perform this ritual.

[anajmi]

mtz9540,

The envelope is the greatest invention for the bohra community. They should pray 2 rakat namaz for the people who invented the envelope. Put a salaam in it and ask the Amil to forget about the FGM. I think, he will be happy to oblige. Just make sure you give him the envelope that he demands.

[mtz9540]

Just a question, i had discussed this issue in family earlier coming to this forum, and many said that the form of reversion and nikahh both gets faltered if this tradition is not done, and even they check it. I hope brother the example you gave it even gets applicable to my case of life. thank you for your guidance.
Allah ni Rehmat Showers upon you.

Exactly, Thats the point despite of me being a guy and i had gone through it in my early age but it was done by not skilled bohra doctor i went through an agony of one year at such small age, and i believe to many its problems remain to later part of life as well.
And i would not want her to go through any traumatic situation at such stage of life. I girl when gets married does a lot before entering a man's life it sounds utterly selfish and inhuman if ever i ask her to do so.

[mtz9540]

Anjami Broo I agree With you, there is a very high level of corruption in this religion no doubt, I guess what goes round comes round. They are witnessing and incorporating the biggest sins in the name of Allah and i am sure Allah would see to it some day soon, they pay well to him (Allah) what they snatched out from the needy Dawoodi bohra brothers.
I just finished my sisters wedding today and i totally know how these aamils rob you. Freaking Rs52,000 Salam for Nikahh to come over for 15mins and do it biggest blunder done by my uncle.
And did you hear about the double Zakat thing?
Khair bhaisaab visited my city the ramzan and even people who cant afford to live on this earth, thier Zakaat was doubled, saying you pay zakaat Allah will give you more.

Anjami broo, I will surely keep your point in mind, best solution.

[ozmujaheed]

Just a question, i had discussed this issue in family earlier coming to this forum, and many said that the form of reversion and nikahh both gets faltered if this tradition is not done, and even they check it. I hope brother the example you gave it even gets applicable to my case of life. thank you for your guidance.
Allah ni Rehmat Showers upon you.

Exactly, Thats the point despite of me being a guy and i had gone through it in my early age but it was done by not skilled bohra doctor i went through an agony of one year at such small age, and i believe to many its problems remain to later part of life as well.
And i would not want her to go through any traumatic situation at such stage of life. I girl when gets married does a lot before entering a man's life it sounds utterly selfish and inhuman if ever i ask her to do so.

Is this really happening, grown girls are also expected to go through fgm?

Is fgm in India legal ?

In India as the mtz says male circumcision is done by non doctor ?

[accountability]

who told you it is neccessary. it is not at all neccessary. all she has to do is take misaq, well that she ll have to do to convert. the most they ll ask is change name. one of my friends son in usa just got married to a white girl, and no body even asked about it.
there are some problems in our jamat, but we are much kinder and acceptive than many other faiths. once you got nikah done then it is no one's business.

[accountability]

and you know what, if want to marry her, stand up for it, just be a man, it is your right to choose whichever religion you want. Do not let these crooks bully you a bit. tell them if you dont do, i ll go to court, first i ll go to muffadal moula, i am sure he ll listen, but come what may, i ll get it done. once you stand up, you ll find to your surprise, how quickly they ll stand down.

[mtz9540]

@osmujaheed,
Yes still FGM is practiced in india, I don't know about its legality or not but widely all dawoodi bohra's do it.
Like i mentioned yes i had my FGC done by an un-professional bohra doctor as one of my aunt din't want it to be done by a professional Parsi Doctor as she believed it was Haram. I just can't believe some stupid blind faiths. And because it wasn't done by a proper doctor i had suffered for almost a year in my childhood.

@Accountability bro,
As long as i have heard the kothars and the city Aamils they have a very strict view point towards FGC and FGM when reversion is done. A fellow Bohra informed they as indirectly that have the person come into to shariyat symbolizes for FGM or FGC.
Also i belong to a smaller city and here my family follows a good bohra social status and name almost every bohra would be knowing my family, and it is a great matter of thought for my family wishes to its all to be done.... then they want it to be done everything properly not blotting their social identity. Also, have been the only strength of pillar for my mother and grandparents as my parents have been divorced long back so a lot of emotional sentiments are linked which do pull me back if at any point of life i feel like thinking for me and my to be spouse alone and not the whole family, Like i said everyone understands everything, my cousins support me my parents do as well to a fair deal of extent but they want things to be done which can make all look good and right and not crossing any sides.
I might sound impractical but honestly i don't have anyone to walk upto in the community who would guide me the right direction. I Know the Aamil of the city pretty well but i do know on this matter these people don't listen to anyone.

[mtz9540]

And previously sometime back on the forum i was reading this one post About the Idiology of 'Imamat' and some possiblity of the flaws in the Faith of Dawoodi Bohra existing in recent times based on the words and preachings of Dr.Syedna Burhanuddin (TUS) and his family that maybe someday they direct that someone from their family itself might be declared as the rightful appointed 'Imam' existing in recent time from the 'Tayyab Tribe' i see alot see it coming soon, Just by giving you the example of my Grandfather himself he soul-ly believes that the 53rd to be Dai Mufaddal Bhaisaheb himself is the 21st Imam and my grandpa figured some calculations behind it saying :
the 51st dai if u add up 5+1=6, the 52nd dai 5+2=7, and 5+3=8 in total 6+7+8=21. So, I come from such a family who have blind faith in the religion which is coming down from ancestorial times. But, I have always had the point of questioning and reasoning and honestly is not very well answered by minor flaws with the whole Dawoodi bohra sect. I have my full faith in Allah and i believe he would definitely guide me on the path of light because i know i pray to him with sincerity whenever i do. And with that sort of faith itself i came up here. I am neither a Fanatic Dawoodi Bohra nor a progressive, but i have my reasoning senses still alive to not close my eyes on faults and follies when it comes to something so divine.

Thank you for all the sheer help shared by fellow brothers.
Allah may always guide you all to the path of light.
Allah Hafiz

[level_headed]

Man !!! you need to school your grandpa about some basics of deen. Imamat is passed from father to son. If Maula Mufaddal is the Imam, then his father Syedna Burhanuddin is the imam. You just cannot take these numbers and come up with something on your own.
I am sorry to say that you guys may be in the forefront of your jamaat but considering this basic understanding of dawat, you are far far behind.
Sorry for the harsh words, brother.

[mtz9540]

Brother i know these facts, i know a lot basics of our religon. I don't say i know it all but definitely know the facts right. And what i meant there was not that Maula muffadal is the Imam himself but i meant there was and that what he meant was that The era the Zaman of Muffadal maula will be the Era of Imam to come out of the Parda. Sorry i must have usd up wrong words out there in my interpretation.
Tauba from allah for it.

[WYP]

Your grandpa ... (you brought him into discussion) ... needs to stop talking about religion.

And previously sometime back on the forum i was reading this one post About the Idiology of 'Imamat' and some possiblity of the flaws in the Faith of Dawoodi Bohra existing in recent times based on the words and preachings of Dr.Syedna Burhanuddin (TUS) and his family that maybe someday they direct that someone from their family itself might be declared as the rightful appointed 'Imam' existing in recent time from the 'Tayyab Tribe' i see alot see it coming soon, Just by giving you the example of my Grandfather himself he soul-ly believes that the 53rd to be Dai Mufaddal Bhaisaheb himself is the 21st Imam and my grandpa figured some calculations behind it saying :
the 51st dai if u add up 5+1=6, the 52nd dai 5+2=7, and 5+3=8 in total 6+7+8=21. So, I come from such a family who have blind faith in the religion which is coming down from ancestorial times. But, I have always had the point of questioning and reasoning and honestly is not very well answered by minor flaws with the whole Dawoodi bohra sect. I have my full faith in Allah and i believe he would definitely guide me on the path of light because i know i pray to him with sincerity whenever i do. And with that sort of faith itself i came up here. I am neither a Fanatic Dawoodi Bohra nor a progressive, but i have my reasoning senses still alive to not close my eyes on faults and follies when it comes to something so divine.

Thank you for all the sheer help shared by fellow brothers.
Allah may always guide you all to the path of light.
Allah Hafiz

[level_headed]

Grandfather himself he soul-ly believes that the 53rd to be Dai Mufaddal Bhaisaheb himself is the 21st Imam and my grandpa figured some calculations behind it saying

My comment was based on what you wrote (see above). No offence taken. It is every mumin's wish that Imam zuhur farmaave and we can gaze on the noorani chehra of the Prophet's heir and descendant and the Daii point us out that aa aapna Imam chhe and Imam potana daii ni peshaani chumi naakhe.
Wahaabis - bugger off, we dont need your comments here

[mtz9540]

@level headed,
I agree with you broo, we all wish the same. and As i agreed upon my mistake of mis-representing the whole thought unintentionally. and i am sorry to allah for the same.
But like i said, my problem still prevails about a rightful way to get this thing done rather walking up to the path of corruption which we all hate about our dawoodi bohra sect.

[ghulam muhammed]

my Grandfather himself he soul-ly believes that the 53rd to be Dai Mufaddal Bhaisaheb himself is the 21st Imam and my grandpa figured some calculations behind it saying :
the 51st dai if u add up 5+1=6, the 52nd dai 5+2=7, and 5+3=8 in total 6+7+8=21.

Tell your grandfather to view the figures from another angle : 6, 7, 8 which is a jumbled up version of 786 (supposed to be the numerological number of Bismillah).

[porus]

Actually, the number of the Dai refers to the title of the Surat of the Quran of the same number. This is appropriate as the Dai, especially 51, 52 and 53, is the 'Bolta Quran' and as infallible as the Quran itself.

Surat 51, al-dhariyaat = The winds that scattter.

51st Dai took the munafiqeen head on and scattered them senseless so that they do not know what hit them. Thus 51st Dai is al-dhariyat.

Surat 52, al-Toor = The Mountain

52nd Dai consolidated the Bohra Sultanate with victories of the 51st against Daawat-na Dushmano and made the Daawat as strong as a Mountain. Thus, 52nd Dai is the Mountain which will stand/live ta roze qayamat.

Surat 53, al-najm =The Star

53rd Dai is the star, like a North Star, ever available for the guidance of mumineen. He shows the way to all. If you are lost, then look for the Star.

[mtz9540]

@ all
this topic was pulled out on a different topic. and i believe i was misguided by my own posts but a fellow member rightly said i thinking we should not talk about what my grandfather believes and stuff.
So please kindly next post should be based on the topic would be much appreciated.

@porus brother
Possibilities remain endless. thank you for sharing your knowledge.

[ozmujaheed]

Grandfather himself he soul-ly believes that the 53rd to be Dai Mufaddal Bhaisaheb himself is the 21st Imam and my grandpa figured some calculations behind it saying

My comment was based on what you wrote (see above). No offence taken. It is every mumin's wish that Imam zuhur farmaave and we can gaze on the noorani chehra of the Prophet's heir and descendant and the Daii point us out that aa aapna Imam chhe and Imam potana daii ni peshaani chumi naakhe.
Wahaabis - bugger off, we dont need your comments here

I am not Wahhabi but abdes please explain practicality the imam who you expect to zuhur is the like the ( 21 plus 52) 73rd decendent of the prophet after1400 years of Yemeni/ Quraish decent speaking Arabic , will he be of pure blood line such that his wife and mother grand mother will be Arabic , no India gene at all?

Mufi is not of pure bloodline ? Is he a sayed ?

[sixfeetunder]

Salam Forum Brothers,
I read this forum a lot and like a lot of facts revealing the flaws of Dawoodi Brohra as well other muslim sects. And i have come up with a personal problem.
My name is murtaza and i am a Dawoodi bohra. I am about to marry a girl who is currently a hindu and would be reverted to Dawoodi Bohra. I know her since over 7 yrs and i faith her she would accept the religion with faith truth and follow accordingly as a moderate dawoodi bohra as well. But the problem Arise with the matter of FGC (Female Genital circumcision) (Female Sunnat) either me nor She is ready to go through it. And as well my family understands it well. But per the sheer Dawoodi bohra customs its very much mandatory. I want to know if there is some way out i could keep both things right at its place and get her reversion with her going through a terrible situation. Honestly this question has reached to such seriousness that neither its a question of us walking away on different paths nor she can just readily fall in for the FGC. And I don't want to kill the girl i love's selfness. Please help me with some level of light to my problems. Everyone is very much happy about our relationship my family her family relatives all know about us and like I said she is ready to come to my religion with utter faith in Allah Quran and Maulana Mohammadun Rasullulah. And i don't feel like getting married by other means. Say Getting married by the Court of Law or by muslims traditions and etc ways. I may Sound rigid but its just that way.

Thank you to anyone of you if someone can pull out time and answer to my problems.

Khuda Hafiz.

Please don't make your wife-to-be go through this ancient African ritual. It has no basis in the Qur'an. Even if one argues from a few ahadith that seem to allow cutting 'a little', it is not an obligatory act! Your wife can be a good Muslimah without undergoing FGM. Also, important to note is that FGM is normally done to an unsuspecting little girl. Please consult an expert about the possible infections/future problems in your marital sex life. In many cases, the woman loses libido and interest in sex. I say this from what I have researched about the subject.

Also, consider Anajmi's solution! Envelope is the 'Bolta Raja'. You can also consider one more option: If no option works out, call the FGM lady and pay her to tell that FGM has been performed. Obviously, only your wife-to-be and the FGM lady would be in the room, so no one would find out what actually happened!! Obviously No one will check!! I know this is a 'corrupt' option but it would help you two stay together without any societal problems.

All the best!

[mtz9540]

Most of the reason put forward by the people in Sect favoring FGM was the following reasons only:
The willingness or interest in sexual indulgences from the female partner, so that they can concentrate less on worldly desires and can devote more time in prayers and household. ( this is not my thoughts but arguments put forward by few learned people known to me in dawoodi bohra community).
Better maintainace of hygiene level.

I don't favor it and no matter what i wouldn't ask my better half to go through this but obviously.\
My argument still prevails if there is some proof in ahadith books or somewhere in The Book of faith holy Quran, Accepted and followed by most of the Dawoodi bohra's that i can keep as evident to not let her go through this nasty act.
As i was planning to try and meet Maula Muffadal (TUS) personally, and maybe he can guide me righteously, somewhere soon. Would that be a a good Idea as well?

[sixfeetunder]

Most of the reason put forward by the people in Sect favoring FGM was the following reasons only:
The willingness or interest in sexual indulgences from the female partner, so that they can concentrate less on worldly desires and can devote more time in prayers and household. ( this is not my thoughts but arguments put forward by few learned people known to me in dawoodi bohra community).
Better maintainace of hygiene level.

I don't favor it and no matter what i wouldn't ask my better half to go through this but obviously.\
My argument still prevails if there is some proof in ahadith books or somewhere in The Book of faith holy Quran, Accepted and followed by most of the Dawoodi bohra's that i can keep as evident to not let her go through this nasty act.
As i was planning to try and meet Maula Muffadal (TUS) personally, and maybe he can guide me righteously, somewhere soon. Would that be a a good Idea as well?

I have always been amazed why restrictions are always put upon women only. Why don't the learned people in the Bohra community advise voluntary fasting to men and women, so that they can keep their sexuality in check and thus concentrate on prayers and career/household? Fasting is a method taught by the Prophet himself! Why should a woman's genitalia be put on the chopping board? Why should she pay the price for the gift of sexuality bestowed upon her by none other than Allah?

Is there any other reason put forth by the learned Bohras? I also don't understand how a man can fully enjoy intercourse if the woman's interest is diminished! Dolls, anyone?

[Muslim First]

Is there any other reason put forth by the learned Bohras? I also don't understand how a man can fully enjoy intercourse if the woman's interest is diminished! Dolls, anyone?

Br 6'

Kothar is run now by Mansoos and other Princes.

Either they have second wives or they have enough money to do 'Muta'.
You know it is Halal

Is there any other reason put forth by the learned Bohras?

Opinion of learned Bohras are in same line as opinions of learned 'Ithnas' with regard to 'Muta'

[Hakimi]

Most of the reason put forward by the people in Sect favoring FGM was the following reasons only:
The willingness or interest in sexual indulgences from the female partner, so that they can concentrate less on worldly desires and can devote more time in prayers and household. ( this is not my thoughts but arguments put forward by few learned people known to me in dawoodi bohra community).
Better maintainace of hygiene level.

I don't favor it and no matter what i wouldn't ask my better half to go through this but obviously.\
My argument still prevails if there is some proof in ahadith books or somewhere in The Book of faith holy Quran, Accepted and followed by most of the Dawoodi bohra's that i can keep as evident to not let her go through this nasty act.
As i was planning to try and meet Maula Muffadal (TUS) personally, and maybe he can guide me righteously, somewhere soon. Would that be a a good Idea as well?

I have always been amazed why restrictions are always put upon women only. Why don't the learned people in the Bohra community advise voluntary fasting to men and women, so that they can keep their sexuality in check and thus concentrate on prayers and career/household? Fasting is a method taught by the Prophet himself! Why should a woman's genitalia be put on the chopping board? Why should she pay the price for the gift of sexuality bestowed upon her by none other than Allah?

Is there any other reason put forth by the learned Bohras? I also don't understand how a man can fully enjoy intercourse if the woman's interest is diminished! Dolls, anyone?

we dont need your shiity advice....

go and **** some chickens as prescribed by ayatollah khomeini....

[sixfeetunder]

I have always been amazed why restrictions are always put upon women only. Why don't the learned people in the Bohra community advise voluntary fasting to men and women, so that they can keep their sexuality in check and thus concentrate on prayers and career/household? Fasting is a method taught by the Prophet himself! Why should a woman's genitalia be put on the chopping board? Why should she pay the price for the gift of sexuality bestowed upon her by none other than Allah?

Is there any other reason put forth by the learned Bohras? I also don't understand how a man can fully enjoy intercourse if the woman's interest is diminished! Dolls, anyone?

we dont need your shiity advice....

go and **** some chickens as prescribed by ayatollah khomeini....

Thank you for your kind advise. You have been terribly misinformed. Bestiality is prohibited in Islam and Ayatollah Khomeini surely does not prescribe it.

[asad]

@mtz9540

You should be worried more about Hindu right Wing activists than Kothar. As mentioned you are from a small town so if girls family knows about this whole thing you will face some real bad time from local hindu goons (ABVP, Bajrang dal, Sangh Chaddis) and from Police who will take their side. If you are from some BJP ruled state than your collectorate will also put problems in court marriage.

As far as FGM is concerned, i dont know what the whole brouhaha is about. first of all no one in their right mind will ask you about it and if some pervert asks then just tell yes its done. lie its as simple as that, dont worry no one is going to pull the hood of your girl to actually check.

[mtz9540]

Well the good part about the whole relationship that we share is the girls parents, have accepted upon the relationship me and my girl plan to share. They belong to bengali family and all the relatives are in their native kolkata. Even they know about this whole thing and at no point object or mind upon the relationship we plan to build in. Apart from that, her family and parents don't have many social friends and which they have even know me. SO like i said the concern about building onto the relationship as i see it shouldn't be a problem. Both her parents and my parents have met each other a couple times and understand a good level of faith. As its a big decision for we bohra family and the whole level of things and concern we need to keep in mind so do they have as well. Yes its a BJP ruled state no do where i live into still, i feel if both families their known relatives known friends all know about it and have no level of opposing this relationship hope it would go smooth.

Why i turned up here,bring up this issue in here is because of the level of insecurity my parents share, based on hoping everything goes in smooth and they don't have to face any ill words or action from social as well as religious aspect. I believe at 85 and 80yrs and my mom at 56yrs and me being their only moral support they do have that level of insecurity.
But I think i get it what should be done, i knew these answers somewhere deep in my heart maybe just wanted to talk out with some people who understand and see it the right way.

Thank you all.
Shukran Allah.

[mnoorani]

Vori se tu nikah kar
Hindu si tu nafrat kar.
Ijaazat hathi khaali Juna mukasir ne.
Ek yahudi si shaadi karwaani.

[dbreform]

Bother,
Below are just my views, I have no intention to hurt any follower.
I have searched on FGM/FGC and found it is merely a tradition. It is neither mentioned in Quran nor in Hadith. I am firm believer of Allah and follower of Islamic rules defined by Rasullah (AS) in the one and only authentic book, Quran. I would believe in Islamic rule without seeking any reason only if it is written in Quran or said by Rasullah (AS). For the rest, they have their own logic, interpretation, and understanding of words of God and I have mine.
Proposed solutions:
1) Not to discuss with anyone unless asked. Everything may fall on place by grace of God.
2) Convince. I hope you must already have been tried this. But there is nothing wrong in trying it once again.
3) Tell him, you MAY do that after niqaah. Reply with a smart answer “Insha-allah, thai jaase”. You reply should neither be yes nor be no. The reason, I emphasise on the word Insha-allah, is we know that Allah has provided us minor detail about everything. Allah clearly mentioned what must be done and what must not. So, if Allah wills, it will be done.
4) You may lie to him. Tell him simply that it has been done. Discussion on this topic is still a taboo in our society, so nobody will come to you and ask the details. If you are someone who does not want to lie and follow the path of truth, you must learn about the truth and stand firm on it. Learn the truth about FGM/FGC. Convince yourself if FGM should be done or convince Amil if it should not be (this going be tough job, I guess). The below links MAY help you to decide. http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=923. Another good article about the same: http://www.minaret.org/fgm-pamphlet.htm. Note: I do not confirm any authenticity of above links; those may be merely views of the people who had written there. However, it may lead you to be on the path of your search for the truth.
5) As suggested by Anajmi, thick cover can help.
6) If you have any strong reference in Kothar, a friend or friend of friend, seek their help. Such relation helps a lot in such situations.
Best of Luck..!

[aliabbas_aa]

Assalamalikum

Br murtuza

If you are in mumbai then you can go to IRF (Islamic research foundation ) Dongri, They deal with such issues almost on a daily basis , they also provide protection, fight cases etc for new converts if at all the local hindu organizations protest.
Apart from bohra reverts there you would inshallh find many reverted sisters who can help your "to be" wife to enter in the fold of Islam with true intentions and belief. If you are really interested then you can mail me and we can arrange a meeting for you with some former bohras who actually deal with such issues and have good experience with it.