Where is this Forum Headed? It's aims are confusing.

[Adam]

This Forum claims to be the following:

We are Ismaili Fatimid Mustalian Tayyebi Dawoodi Bohras, a sect of Shia Islam.

(Proggies and Abdes)

Yet, it allows Wahabis and Non Bohras to flock to this site, spread & preach their junk around.
Why does the Admin allow this?

*Concepts such as Shafa'at & Vaseela are questioned & denied. (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8513)
This is a basic Sunni/Shia concept. Why is it being questioned here? If you don't accept this simple concept, you don't belong in Islam, let alone this forum!

*Concepts such as the Fatimi Calendar are questioned & denied (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8488).
This is a basic Fatemi, Dawoodi Bohra method. Why is it being questioned?

If the Forums aims is to focus on Dawoodi Bohra issues, then let it be so!
But why is the forum allowing OTHERS to flock and insult core Dawoodi Bohra beliefs?

There maybe differences between Proggies and Abdes. But they BOTH still claim to be Dawoodi Bohras and adhere to its beliefs.
Although Progressives like BadriJanab & Porus are anti abdes, they still accept basic Dawoodi Bohra traditions, or are willing to learn.

Why aren't the others blocked out, so that the main reason this Forum was created, can be achieved.
By allowing them, it doesn't make anything any better.
It just divides the Progressives and Abdes even further, creates a lot of unwanted "noise and chatter" and in the end, nothing is achieved.

I would like clarification from ADMIN as to why this forum allows this pollution from others.


I sincerely hope the Progressives agree with this. (Wahabis, keep out for now).

[humanbeing]

If the Forums aims is to focus on Dawoodi Bohra issues, then let it be so!

I m touched with Adam’s concern on Dawoodi Bohra Issues. I agree with him and we shall now focus on issue concerning Dawoodi Bohras. Let start then..

According the DB belief, if a bohra does not pay sabeel and wajebaat (other taxes except zakat) can they qualify to receive intercession from Dai-uz-Zaman ?

Compulsory payment to attend Masjid for Namaz is acceptable practice in name of Nizaam ? Nizaam shall be for Jaman not Namaaz !

Why has been Nuss Video not made public ?

Why is Misaak not provided in writing ?

Why do Dai accept Najwas in cash(Black money) and do not account it as white money ?

Why do Overseas jamat channel wajebaat and other fun collections through Hawala system which is illegal and against the Dai’s farman of obeying law of land ?

Why there are no discounts / subsidies for bohras in Kothar owned / “sponsored” / clinics and hospitals ?

How does Hunting of Animals for pleasure an acceptable practice amongst Kothari royals ? A Dai is a spiritual angel, what value does hunting add to Dai’s spirituality !

Dai is not accountable to anyone other then Imam, but why is Local Jamat not accountable to its people ?

Does Daaim-ul-Islam says that Local Amils and Jamat are not accountable to its people ?

[Deerseye]

@Adam, this is a classic example of the British formula, DIVIDE and RULE.

[Admin]

Adam,
The issue you raise has been discussed before and there is no point in starting it again. We suspect that this issue is brought up time and again as a diversionary tactic. The problem is not that Bohra beliefs are being questioned but that the abdes cannot answer the pointed questions regarding the Dawat and its questionable practices. As a free forum a certain questioning of beliefs is bound to happen (and not just by sunnis and whahabis alone). Bohras on either side who are committed to the fundamentals of Bohra beliefs not only remain steadfast in their beliefs but also gain more clarity and understanding surrounding their beliefs through these discussions. In our view, these discussions are not as problematic as they are made out to be.
The problem is the corruption and waywardness of the Dawat. So please stop harping about sunni/wahabi angle, it is not very important. What is important is that abdes honestly and truthfully answer the questions asked of them.
Thank you.

[porus]

It would be advisable to make a distinction between the aim of the Website as a whole and the aim of the Forum within it.

The website's aims are precisely described in the Home page. Forum's aims are to provide an opportunity for discussions. The fact that the Forum provides almost unfettered access to a wide variety of opinions is highly commendable.

Unfortunately, there are members here whose agenda is simply to disrupt useful discussions, say, among Shia of Shia doctrines, by injecting denigration of the entire Shia enterprise. Let me cite one recent example.

Bohras have a Misri Calendar and we know that there are issues with it. By and large, Bohras have agreed to follow it. Once we accept that, a discussion about the origin of the Calendar and how it is calculated in accordance with astronomical phenomenon, and how it can be improved, would prove useful.

However, the discussion can simply be disrupted by someone saying Bohras do not follow Prophet according to Sunni interpretations etc., hence it is one more example of their kufr. Civilized discussion cannot continue even though it could be carried out within a agreed terms of reference even if there is a difference of opinion on the terms.

Another example. Whether we agree with the concepts of Shafa'at and Waseela or not, why is it not possible to accept the view of those who regard them with religious sanction in order to seek their clarification on the issue? If you start off by accusing of them of Shirk right off the bat, no one is the wiser.

A lot of the above revolves around the interpretation of the Quran. Some people arrogantly assume that they alone know what Allah intends and boast of defending the Quran. We need to discourage that behavior full of 'takabbur', at least on this forum, because we know what that has led Wahhabis and the Taliban to do in almost all Muslim countries; murder defenseless Muslim men, women and children and destroy their holy sites including masjids because they do not follow their interpretation of the Quran.

[anajmi]

Here is an example of civilized discussion by porus on the thread that he mentioned.

post from anajmi

As explained above, there is no violation of 2:184. Would the prophet violate the Quran? There is no need to fix Ramadan at 29 or 30 days. It could be either 29 or 30 days depending upon your location and the sighting of the moon. Fixing hasn't solved the problem for the bohras. This year, as per your calculations, bohras in the west will be fasting only 29 days in Ramadan. The first day was actually in Sha'ban.

post from porus

Idiot, understand that Bohras will not follow you. Stop barking here or perhaps keep barking all you want.

Bohras will fast for 30 days all over the world according to Misri Calendar.

Bohra interpretation is the days of Ramadan are fixed. They do not change year after year. Even if orbital anomalies occur, or rather, even if calendar anomalies occur. Idiot.

Civilized discussion - You have a problem
Uncivilized discussion - Idiot. We will do what we want. Stop barking. Idiot.

[Adam]

@PORUS
Well said.
Unfortunately anajmi is back at his antics.
An Admin can just sit back like a coward while "his" beliefs are being insulted. Not very patriotic now is it? Unless Admin himself doesn't believe in Dawoodi Bohra beliefs, and this site is just a front?

[anajmi]

And yet again Adam weasels out of actually answering the questions that he has been asked while blaming it on the Wahhabis.

Admin, here is a suggestion, ban anajmi from this forum for a couple of months. Get Adam to answer the questions directed to him.

[SBM]

Can you have guts to tell the same way to your Aamil specially what happened in Bradford Jamaat, Do you have guts to condemn that shaikh and the jamaat for not coming out and condemning that on those KOTHARI WEBSITE. Does Kothari goons have spine to post this incident on their website and publicly condemned the person and sympathies with the victims. TILL YOU AND YOUR MASTERS DO THAT DONOT THROW STONES ON OTHERS

[Adam]

@ADMIN

So please stop harping about sunni/wahabi angle, it is not very important.

If concepts of Vaseela And Shafat of RASULULLAH (the leader of Islam) is being questioned on this Forum, and Rasulullah being insulted, I definitely think there is a problem.
And Admin is too much of a coward to say so. Solely because it helps attack the Dawoodi Bohra belief even more.

[Al Zulfiqar]

adam,

presumably you wanted to discuss bohra issues on this forum? then why are you avoiding answering the questions addressed specifically to you by member humanbeing? or do you reply only when you can show off your self-serving knowledge twisted to suit the perversions of the faith by your masters?

your insistence to restrict discussions only to your own narrow sphere on a public forum is futile and smacks of arrogance. that too on a forum where you dismiss the majority as mushriqs, idiots and illiterate fools, a forum which your own syedna has banned abdes like you from visiting and participating on.

you are a charlatan and conman. we have no interest in your deceit filled arguments trying to justify sajda to the dai and propagating the idea that he has the power and authority to intercede on behalf of his followers. do you think allah is stupid and helpless that he will allow a proven sinner like syedna to intercede on his behalf? a syedna who shoots down innocent wild animals for sport and pleasure, who lives a life of ayyashi on the hard earned earnings of his followers?

i know that you, being the yellow-bellied coward that you are, will avoid answering my questions and all the other awkward questions posed to you by others. do not think that it will make us get tired of kicking your abde butt every time. your silence only reinforces your shirk and kufr.

[Adam]

@ADMIN

So please stop harping about sunni/wahabi angle, it is not very important.

If concepts of Vaseela And Shafat of RASULULLAH (the leader of Islam) is being questioned on this Forum, and Rasulullah being insulted, I definitely think there is a problem.
And Admin is too much of a coward to say so. Solely because it helps attack the Dawoodi Bohra belief even more.

So the prophet of Islam can be insulted on this forum and no one cares?

[badrijanab]

@ADMIN

If concepts of Vaseela And Shafat of RASULULLAH (the leader of Islam) is being questioned on this Forum, and Rasulullah being insulted, I definitely think there is a problem.
And Admin is too much of a coward to say so. Solely because it helps attack the Dawoodi Bohra belief even more.

So the prophet of Islam can be insulted on this forum and no one cares?

Janab Adam bhaisahab,

Tahir Saifuddin sahib claiming his powers are equal to that of Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. - is his statement insult to Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. or not?

Have ever in the history of mankind any Dai Mutlaq claimed his powers are equal to Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w.?

[humanbeing]

@Porus
I read your posts with great interest, they are really good to read. With reference to yon going discussion on Shafa’at and waseela, My points/concern revolve around monopolizing this concept to facilitate exploitation by vested interest regardless of being a bohra, shia or sunni or hindu or christians.

Need and advent of Islam is on the base that, There is one Allah who controls everyone’s destiny. The very idea of one Allah for All, was to remove the schism in those times (tribal conflicts with respective pagan gods). Now with idea of intercession, although if understood in right and honest spirit is an acceptable concept. But leaves a big margin for vested interest to create their own cults and claim ownership over their followers to exploit.

When I directed my questions to Adam regarding non payment of sabeel and other innovative taxes with respect to intercession, I did not get any answer. When these questions were presented to Sabak orators, they too wiggled out giving lame and twisted answers, mixing ‘Nizaam’ and “maula-ni-khushi” excuses. The problem is Kothari amils are too shrewd and can be dangerous when uncomfortable questions are asked. They are not used to with tough questions.

Such concept of intercessions enforced by Quran and other supporting religious literature play a powerful tool in hands of vested interest to toughen the exploitation.

Dai ( spiritual head) will not deny upfront intercession over non payment of taxes. But eventually imply that if so and so monies are not paid, then countless things for which raza is required will not be granted, eventually conveying that these activities are happening without raza so not eligible for intercession.

The summary of my point is, Is intercession paid service by DAI or is it free ?

Only amaal of the person shall be the barometer for seeking forgiveness through intercession or directly from Allah ! whatever as per whoever’s beliefs ! but is it so with Bohras ??

[SBM]

Adam
So the prophet of Islam can be insulted on this forum and no one cares?

How about Syedna insulting Allah by calling himself Ilah Ul Ard and insulting Kaba by calling himself Haqiqi Kaba, insulting Hajj by asking people to do
circumlocution of Raudat e Tahera and getting the same sawab
Adam: so Allah can be insulted in all the Majaalis by Aaamils and not a single Abde including you cares?

[Humsafar]

Let's not get taken in by Adam's allegation here. By our responses we are sort of endorsing that the Prophet is being questioned and insulted. This is not true. Yes, the concepts of Waseela and Shafat are being discussed and some hard questions are being asked around these concepts but it does not in any way amounts to insulting the Prophet. Adam is just trying to be sensationalist, exactly the way mullahs do to arouse emotion and ire among unthinking masses. This tactic won't work here buddy.
As to actual, living, live-wire insults to the Prophet, to the Quran and to Islam his masters are past-masters at it. They commit shirk, flout the principles of the Quran, violate Islamic ethics and tenets, insult the prophet and the imams by arrogating illegitimate power and prestige to themselves, have made a mockery of Bohra beliefs and traditon, and behave in every way which is unIslamic, rapacious, corrupt and against basic human decency and this apologist of the vile Dawat has the gumption to lecture us on respect for the Prophet. If he really cared about the love and respect for the Prophet he would have long ago left his masters who insult the Prophet with their every breath and every step.

[as2153]

Id like to have a shot at these questions:

I m touched with Adam’s concern on Dawoodi Bohra Issues. I agree with him and we shall now focus on issue concerning Dawoodi Bohras. Let start then..

According the DB belief, if a bohra does not pay sabeel and wajebaat (other taxes except zakat) can they qualify to receive intercession from Dai-uz-Zaman ?

Without Sabeel, a jamaat will struggle to operate. All communities need funding to operate. The idea of not qualifying to receive intercession if you dont pay sabeel provides a higher order and more convincing rationale for regular mumeen to pay up thereby allowing the jamaat to operate. Wajebaat includes Zakat (the main component) and Zakat is a major pillar of islam. I recommend saying no to the superfluous items unless they are well explained and justified.

Compulsory payment to attend Masjid for Namaz is acceptable practice in name of Nizaam ? Nizaam shall be for Jaman not Namaaz !

No experience of this so no comment. No charges for attending our masjid.

Why has been Nuss Video not made public ?

Outsider perspective: Maybe because no video was taken at the time of the nuss. Maybe, the nuss happened after a major stroke and generally after a major stroke, the patient can barely speak or move so nuss never actually happened and the dai's sons pulled a fast one to avoid the epic failure of not having another dai selected before it was too late
Ambivalent perspective: OK with the mansoos being the next dai because he was the dai's son, he is popular and I dont see better options and our faith is not based on a democracy - it is what it is.
Mumeen perspective: Nuss was performed in front of thousands in India - if you choose not to believe what you heard and think it was mumbled - then thats your problem.,

Why is Misaak not provided in writing ?

Fatimid tradition. Origins of misak was a secretive oath that took place under an environment of threat and intimidation. Seems cultural to me.

Why do Dai accept Najwas in cash(Black money) and do not account it as white money ?

A few potential reasons: Black money can be used for bribing of authorities for the benefit of the community. Because businessmen find it easier to give cash for tax purposes and accounting.
Another reason: Why not?

Why do Overseas jamat channel wajebaat and other fun collections through Hawala system which is illegal and against the Dai’s farman of obeying law of land ?

I dont know about this but as a wiki quote: "transfers are usually informal and not effectively regulated by governments, which is a major advantage to customers with tax, currency control, immigration, or other concerns."

Why there are no discounts / subsidies for bohras in Kothar owned / “sponsored” / clinics and hospitals ?

No good answer

How does Hunting of Animals for pleasure an acceptable practice amongst Kothari royals ? A Dai is a spiritual angel, what value does hunting add to Dai’s spirituality !

Hunting of animals is not a banned practice amongst DB is it? This comment seems pedantic to me.

Dai is not accountable to anyone other then Imam, but why is Local Jamat not accountable to its people ?

Local jamaats are typically operated by a committee of elders (ayan) that aims to have the jamaat accountable to its people. There are major flaws in this approach at many DB jamaats across the world.

Does Daaim-ul-Islam says that Local Amils and Jamat are not accountable to its people ?[/quote]

I dont think so but I dont know.

[Nietzsche]

Adam, would you just answer the questions that have been posed? Your foolish blather is pissing me off. You're skipping over all the things that you can't explain. In response to this umpteenth inquiry for your answers to those questions, you're probably going to spew out even more garbage.

Admin, if this incompetent fool cannot answer the questions, I suggest that you remove him from this website. His comments serve no purpose, they get in the way of an actual discussion.

[Nietzsche]

As2153, I'm sure we all respect your... Answers.

Regarding the vajebaat payments... I agree that a jamaat needs funds to operate. However, when people are forced to pay thousands of dollars/rupees to the jamaat, it seems that the amil can suddenly afford first class tickets to India and an expensive new car. Paying for the amil to live a luxurious lifestyle DOES NOT BENEFIT THE JAMAAT. If the money really was meant to help run the jamaat and serve its members, then it could be used to help out poor families in the community. Instead, it all goes back to the Organization and the amil.

[as2153]

There is no question in my mind that some of the money given in wajebaat is skimmed including the purported 10% that goes to Amils but I still contend that a significant proportion of the funds are used to benefit jamaats and jamaat members. Example that I know of: A jamaat wanted to buy new land to extend masjid - it raised funds from its jamaat members and those raised funds were matched by dawaat. The source of the matching funds is undoubtedly from wajebaat collections. I dont know much about help to poorer families in the community but I would hope and expect that it happens.

[like_minded]

The monies collected under various headings, schemes, etc etc... goes straight into Kothar's safe and of course not to mention the cut that the amil has in the loot.

If the jamat needs funds for any project ie Building a new masjid or renovation of an existing masjid or installing a simple audio system in a markaz or whatever... they catch hold of a bakra to sponsor the same, the funds available with jamat through sabeel collections is unaccountable. For any expense be it small or big, they go back to the people with their begging bowls.

This is how it works...

[Bohra_Bhai]

I think there should be a check on the Amil's lifestyle as a matter of fact an Amil shouldn't bother about material things his sole purpose should be guide people in there religious quest. It is now we find Amil's travelling in business class, driving luxury cars and eating at 5 & 7 Stars hotel. Long ago Amils use to live on the salaams and hadiyas.On second thoughts I actually dont have a problem with Amil's lifestyle the only thing that concerns me is the coercive manner jamaat collects money. The jamaat indulge in such tactics just to out do other jamaats, if the money is collected without and people donate wilfully then I am not concerned how it is spent. As long as people are not being humilated and insulted and are treated with dignity and respect I got no issues with the lifestyle of Amil Saab.

[Maqbool]

Basically the other then bohras comes in debate when the religious is discussed on this forum. The major participants are BJ, Adam and Porus.

Pours post is every time informative but the Adam's is going above the head.

Now the main objection raised by Adam is where is this Forum heading? The simple answer is Mr. Adam you do not go in to tawil always which is going over head for almost every participants. You answer the simple Query raised by Humanbeings and others.

Adam you are always ignoring the query pertaining to out community. Our community day by day becoming poor and the sayedna class is collecting wealth in billions. You are ignoring this and whenever these matters raised you comes and changes the tracks and disappears.

If you are really interested in the kherkhwahi of Mumenins please address the core matters raised here time and again.

[wise_guy]

If the jamat needs funds for any project ie Building a new masjid or renovation of an existing masjid or installing a simple audio system in a markaz or whatever... they catch hold of a bakra to sponsor the same, the funds available with jamat through sabeel collections is unaccountable. For any expense be it small or big, they go back to the people with their begging bowls.

This is how it works...

yup.. shat pratishat sach (100% truth)... been there and seen it first hand !

[like_minded]

I think there should be a check on the Amil's lifestyle as a matter of fact an Amil shouldn't bother about material things his sole purpose should be guide people in there religious quest

And who is going to check???

In a community where accountability is zero, where there is no democracy or freedom, these things are bound to happen.
Besides, when the amil sees his bosses indulging in crazy loot, why on earth will he pretend to be a saint?

[Bohra_Bhai]

You see the huge sums given are given wilfully it is only the mid class and poor who are harassed. There is huge number in our community who really donot endorse or support the Local Amil's practice but since no alternative within the system is provided to them they eventually tend to support it.
The day an alternative within the system is provided you will find accountability in the jamaats.

[aftabm]

The alternative, though difficult and trouble some, is desist in paying these officials. Start asking questions. Do not succumb to thier pressurizing antics. No one will provide you an alternative, unless you develop one yourself.

When these "huge-number-who-dont-supprt" start asking those pointed questions and start disobeying those ridiculous money paying firmaans, the accountability will automatically come.

[Al Zulfiqar]

so now that awkward questions were directed towards that shameless defender of the corrupt daawat who dared to start this thread, he ran with his tail between his legs like the yellow bellied coward that he is.

yoo hoo adam, we are waiting for you...