Homosexuality and child abuse

[anajmi]

It looks like DB lol has an itch that he is unable to scratch away. LOL!!! What can I say. I do that to people. I have been trying to stay nice and quiet the last couple of days, but DB lol won't leave me alone. So I have to keep coming back to slap him around.

By the way, GM almost always gives the source. And I can guarantee that you will be banished long before anyone even thinks of banishing GM. His posts have been far more relevant to the reform movement and any single post of his is move valuable than all your posts put together, or my responses to your crap, lol!!!

Dude, where's my car. Sweet!! Dude!! and lest I forget, take a chill pill playa!!! LOL

And Bro GM, when push comes to shove, this dud might shout that he wants to die like Hussain, but he will be only too happy to negotiate like Hassan and give you the keys to the kingdom. lol!!! He might even run in the same police car as his Aqa Maula runs in. lol

[Qutbi-Hero]

It looks like DB lol has an itch that he is unable to scratch away. LOL!!! What can I say. I do that to people. I have been trying to stay nice and quiet the last couple of days, but DB lol won't leave me alone. So I have to keep coming back to slap him around.

By the way, GM almost always gives the source. And I can guarantee that you will be banished long before anyone even thinks of banishing GM. His posts have been far more relevant to the reform movement and any single post of his is move valuable than all your posts put together, or my responses to your crap, lol!!!

Dude, where's my car. Sweet!! Dude!! and lest I forget, take a chill pill playa!!! LOL

And Bro GM, when push comes to shove, this dud might shout that he wants to die like Hussain, but he will be only too happy to negotiate like Hassan and give you the keys to the kingdom. lol!!! He might even run in the same police car as his Aqa Maula runs in. lol

You seem quite upset... did all the girls on Shaadi.com turn you down lol!

[anajmi]

Dud, I mean dud, no dawg, I am not upset. I am just chillin' in the portal vortex playa. Yeah!! lol. Don't need Shaadi.com when wives are throwing their lingerie at me dawg cause I'm in da mood playa. Yo lol!!

[Nietzsche]

Homosexuality is not a sin. Hell, I don't even care if it is condemned in most religious texts. Homosexuality is not necessarily a choice; it is seen throughout nature in animals, not just in humans. Conservative religious bigots crack down on homosexuality are vermin. They impede societal progress by throwing around their baseless and discriminatory claims. Homosexuals are worth the same as any heterosexual person. They can be just as smart or just as decent as anyone else. Honestly, the only arguments that are considered when debating over homosexuality are the religious ones.

The same applies to abortion. The fact that some people believe that they have any right to dictate to others what they can or cannot do with their own body is ludicrous, especially in the case of abortion. It is true that people don't always think before they conceive a child, but if that child is unwanted, then the kid will probably suffer through an unfulfilling childhood and could have a higher probability of engaging in criminal activity (due to chance of abandonment, especially by the father).

There is a point where common sense has to take precedence over certain beliefs in order to achieve a more just society.

[SBM]

Questions
If homosexuality is okay then why would God or Nature (since many of LGBT ) may not believe in God will provide separate Organs to two different sexes.

[anajmi]

Nietzsche,

Do you believe religion is man made or divinely inspired?

[JC]

Bro Anajmi,

Religion is 'divinely inspired' however it is the interpretation by human beings. There were so many things which religion said but were unclear hundreds of years ago which make sense now and we better understand those. Is it not possible that today people are wrongly interpreting what religions say of homosexuality.

Secondly God has created man as WISE and has given human race brains so there could be things which could be left for us human beings to decide.

As a believer I believe I am not doing anything wrong; I am not bringing any harm to anything (property or life). Why cannot I be accepted for what I am?

Also what would you say of impotent men? Women who cannot conceive??

[anajmi]

JC,

The reason I ask is straight forward. If religion is created by man, then the laws of religion are also created by man. Hence somewhere a few thousand years ago, man decided that homosexuality is bad. Why did he come to that conclusion? I am trying to figure out the answer to this question from an anthropological point of view. Nietzsche claims that acceptance of homosexuality would create a just society. So why did man not accept homosexuality when he was creating religion?

Religion is 'divinely inspired' however it is the interpretation by human beings. There were so many things which religion said but were unclear hundreds of years ago which make sense now and we better understand those. Is it not possible that today people are wrongly interpreting what religions say of homosexuality.

I am sorry bro JC, you might not like it but I have to say it. You are now talking like the Kothar. They claim the exact same thing. They say religion is unclear hence the abdes should just do what they order.

[JC]

Thanks for explaining Bro Anajmi!

A few hundrerd years ago MAN decided in various parts to world that BLACKS are inferior and are to be kept away from WHITES ...... today man has changed that rule. Yesterday man made Communism, today it is almost dead. If MAN decided homosexuality was BAD a few thousand years ago, can he not accept his mistake TODAY and rectify it? We have bee EVOLVING, haven't we?? We have been LEARNING and becoming WISE, haven't we?

As for interpretation of religion - well you have a point but I am different from Kothar in the sense that I am not asking you to 'come to me only' for 'interpretation' ...... what I am asking is a) to accept that our interpretaiion may not be correct and b) we should try and research (and constantly do that) to 'improve' our understanding (that is interpretation) ........ I say WE and not I or US.

I do not say 'look WHO is saying' I believe in 'look WHAT is being said'.

[anajmi]

A few hundrerd years ago MAN decided in various parts to world that BLACKS are inferior and are to be kept away from WHITES ...... today man has changed that rule. Yesterday man made Communism, today it is almost dead. If MAN decided homosexuality was BAD a few thousand years ago, can he not accept his mistake TODAY and rectify it? We have bee EVOLVING, haven't we?? We have been LEARNING and becoming WISE, haven't we?

Well, remember, a few thousand years ago, man decided that killing another man is bad. That is still bad isn't it? Evolution doesn't mean that everything that was once true is now false. How do you know which category homosexuality falls under? That is why we need to first understand why man decided that homosexuality is bad.

Second, remember what religion says. All men are created equal. Black or White. So, man was discriminating inspite of religion and not because of it.

[JC]

Agree Bro Anajmi! We do not know where homosexuality falls and we have to understand why man in the first place decided killing another man was bad or why homosexuality was bad. Agreed we do not know the category as yet.

We understood why killing a man was bad hence we even today say it is bad.

We are still uncertain on homosexuality; we are unsure of category, correct? So why issue a JUDGEMENT today that it is a disease and/or sin.

[badrijanab]

For non-Bohras: Religion is made by whims and fancies of their leaders. So they contend the then banning homosexuality was incorrect decision, which now can be revised. So non-Bohras belonging to Abde etc, etc and etc, promoting Homosex are sinful per below Quranic verses and those non-Bohras who are Abde 'Mutah' too are party of former type of non-Bohras

For Bohra Mumin, the true Shiyane Haider-a-Karrar Ameer-al-Momineen Mola Ali a.s.: Quran commands in below verses Homosexuality is sinful act hence Haram (in past, present & future).
(1) 26: 165-166,
(2) 7: 80-81,
(3) 27: 55,
(4) 11: 77-79

[JC]

Badrijanab,

You are indeed Bolta and Likhta Quran .......... whatever you interprate is correct ....

[anajmi]

We are still uncertain on homosexuality; we are unsure of category, correct? So why issue a JUDGEMENT today that it is a disease and/or sin.

Bro JC,

You and I maybe uncertain. But a majority are absolutely certain about where homosexuality falls. So, we have to first do the research and then try to change the category.

[SBM]

Br Anajmi and Br JC
Very nice and civil debate and this the kind of debate we need on this forum. Everyone has their own choices but nice arguments on both sides,
Thanks

[Nietzsche]

I doubt that religion was actively "created" by people. Ancient peoples probably didn't gather around a table and decide to create a religion that dictated how people should live life. The earliest peoples expressed their beliefs on mediums such as in their caves, where they created images that might be expressions of their faith. Other peoples created small idols that may have been a manifestation of their beliefs. They came up with supernatural explanations because they didn't have an understanding of science that has developed (very recently) in the history of humans.

As for why homosexuality wasn't condoned by the artists of the Abrahamic faiths? I can't give you a solid answer, as I haven't really studied the topic. However, I would believe that they didn't like homosexuality because it was different and uncommon. People are afraid of the unknown: we're scared of the dark, or of foreigners, because we're unfamiliar with those things. The artists of these religions may have seen homosexuality as being a symbol of evil... or perhaps since homosexuality doesn't result in offspring, they might have seen it as unnatural.

Regardless of past beliefs, researchers have found that homosexuality is seen throughout nature, and it may not even be up to the person to decide his/her respective sexuality. Since that knowledge has been obtained, it is wrong to discriminate against homosexuals or homosexual behavior, as it is naturally occurring. Has the founders of your faith know this, perhaps they wouldn't have had an issue with it.

On the other hand, if the founders of your faith had the resources and knowledge that is available today, I doubt that they would turn to faith to answer their questions.

[anajmi]

If religion is man made, then man is an animal created by nature. It does only that which is good for its own survival. Maybe, humans deemed homosexuality as bad because it was seen as something that might harm the human society and human survival, which actually is pretty clear. The goal of every living organism, as nature would have it, is to reproduce. Homosexuals cannot re-produce.

homosexuality is seen throughout nature,

Please be more specific. I have never seen homosexuality in nature, except in humans. Doesn't mean its not there. It simply means it is an aberration, not common enough to be seen occasionally. Autistic kids occur in nature too. But we are still trying to cure them aren't we?

[Nietzsche]

http://www.yalescientific.org/2012/03/d ... sexuality/

Result of a quick google search.

As far as the fact that homosexuality doesn't produce offspring, there is mention of a paradox involving that matter addressed on several sites. I can't give you an explanation that would be better than university researchers, so it would behoove you to do some research before coming to a conclusion.

The fact is that homosexuality is probably been around longer than humanity. As I said, do some research online, finding useful articles from reputable sources should take a few minutes.

Even if it would appear that homosexuality doesn't help out the survival of animals/humans, in reality, it seems that, in small percentages, homosexuality has endured. Homosexuality has persisted, and the human population is now at over 7 billion people. I think our species is doing just fine, despite homosexuality. The article mentions that homosexuality is present with giraffes; they are doing quite fine as a species.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/node/30752

You can check those links out for information on the homosexuality paradox.

[anajmi]

I am not disputing the existence of homosexuality. It is around and will be around. It just doesn't mean that it is needed for a better society. Every homosexual is born out of a heterosexual relationship. But how many heterosexuals are born out of a homosexual relationship? Ain't that a paradox now?

From the link that you posted.

Currently, homosexual behavior has been documented in over 450 different animal species worldwide. For instance, observations indicate that Humboldt, King, Gentoo, and Adélie penguins of the same sex engage in “mating rituals like entwining their necks and vocalizing to one another.” In addition, male giraffes have also been observed engaging in homosexual behavior by rubbing their necks against each others’ bodies while ignoring the females. Yet another example is lizards of the genus Teiidae, which can copulate with both male and female mates.

Seriously now? mating rituals like entwining their necks and vocalizing to one another? rubbing necks against their bodies while ignoring the females? Who are these scientists? Did they check to see of the giraffe had a hard on? Have they never seen buddy movies in bollywood? Next thing they will tell me is that since I am hugging my son every day, I am demonstrating pedophiliac behavior!!

I am not convinced. Not even a little bit.

[anajmi]

Here is something else that I gathered from the second link that you posted. Nature has a way of taking care of the homosexual problem of endangering the survival of the species.

His daughter, 15, replied, "But Dad, did you check if this factor that makes sons homosexual is not the same factor that makes the mother produce more children and have big families?"

See that? Homosexuals tend to come from mothers and families that have many children. So that the damage done by homosexuality is offset by the additional members in the family that will ensure the survival of the species.

However, if we start looking at homosexuality as not a problem, but a part of normal behavior, then we neutralize the effectiveness of nature by now creating more homosexuals because now society has decided to accept it. This will actually endanger the species.

[Nietzsche]

Who are those scientists? They're scientists who publish a science magazine for Yale. If you haven't heard of it, it's a university usually regarded as among the world's best. The authors of that magazine are intellectual powerhouses.

The behavior of animals (Giraffes entwining necks) is not synonymous to hugging your child. That is a foolish statement that exhibits your lack of knowledge. Animals have different courting rituals that humans. that's pretty obvious. Animals have evolved their own mating mechanisms that differ from those of humans, and entwining of necks as a display of homosexual behavior in no way insinuates that hugging is homosexual behavior for humans.

As far as endangering our species; allowing homosexuality in no way encourages it. If homosexuality is genetic, then it doesn't matter how much it is encourages or cracked down upon, it will exist. And since it occurs in animals, I'd think that there is definitely a genetic component to homosexuality. I don't understand what you mean by "creating more homosexuals". I doubt that a heterosexual couple has any say as to the sexuality of their child.

Additionally, I think that a way homosexual genes may be passed down is through bisexual peoples. That's just my own theory, without any backing. But it could be a reason as to how homosexual genes are passed.

Even if we assume your logic is sound (from the second post), our race is far too large right now. If more homosexuals means less new offspring, then maybe that's a good thing. Our race needs to be downsized before we end up destroying this planet; as a religious person, I'm sure you respect that fact that God has given you this planet as a medium to reach heaven, and it needs more respect than it is currently getting.

See, when it comes down to it, when you condemn homosexuality, you throw all of the declared and undeclared homosexuals under the bus. When anti-homosexual policies are adhered to, homosexuals are discriminated against and prevented from living a fulfilling life.

Society cannot allow religious beliefs to deprive a good portion (2-3%, as stated in one of the sources above) of people to be openly discriminated against. Do you think African-Americans were treated fairly throughout most of American History? What about the Jews during the Holocaust? Those things are what discrimination and baseless beliefs lead to.

I respect your religious beliefs, but they cannot allow you to subjugate millions of homosexual people. They must be allowed equal rights, regardless of the religious adherences of the ruling body.

[anajmi]

Who are those scientists? They're scientists who publish a science magazine for Yale. If you haven't heard of it, it's a university usually regarded as among the world's best. The authors of that magazine are intellectual powerhouses.

It was a rhetorical question. Did the scientists wait around to see if the giraffes mated after going through the mating ritual? I am assuming they did not. I am sure if they had waited, we wouldn't have naysayers like me doubting their science now would we?

homosexuals are discriminated against

You are now mixing two issues. How we treat homosexuals is not the topic under discussion right now. And yes, I agree with you that society discriminates against homosexuals and it should not.

I don't understand what you mean by "creating more homosexuals".

When you give something a sign of approval, you tend to create more of it. Once it becomes acceptable, it becomes a valid choice. And once you remove your primary argument for homosexuality, which is "no choice", then we truly have a paradox.

By the way, have the scientists ever tested a homosexual to see if they have the homosexual gene?

[Nietzsche]

There are scientists who devote their lives towards research of these animals. Have you heard of Jane Goodall?She has devoted so much of her time towards the study of apes- these researchers don't simply conduct superficial studies. There are many which have been written by information acquired over years and years of observations. They don't just see two giraffes touching each other draw hasty conclusions. I'm sure that you can contact a plethora of institutions if you want confirmation of the mating habits of giraffes, and I guarantee that they can provide you with competent information.

You cannot denounce something like homosexuality and still treat the homosexual people in a fair manner. Perhaps there are some disciplined people who can balance their religious beliefs while showing no apparent disdain for homosexuals. However, I doubt any average joe would be able to attain this. They will be told what to believe, and they will hold it against homosexuals, leading to discrimination. When there is dialogue about opposing/supporting homosexuality, the topic of how they are treated by society goes hand in hand. It is not a separate issue.

Your final statement is an unsupported assumption.

"When you give something a sign of approval, you tend to create more of it."

While this statement probably applies to many things, if genes are even partially responsible for homosexuality, then I don't believe it would apply. A good way to test this would be to research cultures in the past/present where homosexuality wasn't/isn't opposed (might be hard to find) and try to find the homosexuality rates in those cultures.

Regardless of whether allowing homosexuality would increase incidence or not, I still don't understand your issue with it. If there are a fraction more homosexuals, how will it negatively impact your life? I've never been harassed by a homosexual, nor do I know of anyone who has. As far as your religion goes, as long as you adhere to your beliefs, you'll end up in the right place. The majority of people are going to end up in flames anyway, right? So why do you want to oppress people who want nothing to do with you? Let them live their life, they'll let you live yours.

As far as research on homosexuality and genetics... again, I'm not a researcher with a PhD, so if you are at all interested in learning more about this, I'm sure you can find reputable sources on the internet or at a library. A quick google search should give you a bunch of fodder to begin with.

[anajmi]

Nietzsche,

Right now, frankly, I am not sure if I am negatively impacted by homosexuality or not. I definitely do not want my kids to learn in school that being a homosexual is ok. I want them to be taught that homosexuality occurs due to a difference in genes.

[zinger]

Anajmi and Nietzsche,

am i reading this wrong or are you guys defining homosexuality as "genetic" when you say "genes"?

Does that mean that if a homosexual man and hetrosexual woman (or vica-versa) mate and procreate, then the child is likely to be homosexual?

Is homosexuality not just a case of the brain being wired differently?

Is that what you mean when you refer to genes and genetics? Cause they mean completely different things according to me

[anajmi]

Based upon the very limited research that I have done, there is no evidence of a homosexual gene that leads to a person being a homosexual. I believe, and it is just my belief, that a person becomes a homosexual based upon his or her environment that he or she is born and brought up in.

[JC]

Bro Anajmi and Bro Nietzsche,

The debate is indeed very interesting and I got to learn so many things. I must say I feel better.

Bro Anajmi, You said in an earlier post that 'majority' disapporves of homosexuality and therefore it must be wrong. I disagree - majority can be wrong; history has approved many a times that majority was wrong; per your earlier example man decided killing was bad and it was consistently believed over thousands of years and hence it is even bad today; not so with case of homosexuality, it has taken a reverse plunge.

As for your last post bro Anajmi, environment, society and brought up has nothing to do with one being homosexual. If you can trust me on this - I was born in a traditional bohra family of Karachi, traditional small family, lived in conservative Mohallah, almost no discussion or exposure to this, no one similar around, all friends are hetrosexual (if any one was not I was not aware as no one wud speak of this). I was brought up in a traditional manner ............ there was nothing which indicate something 'different' happened to me and hence I 'became' homo .... I knew since grade 8 that i was different when I had a crush on a boy ....... I thought then may be I want to befriend with him and that is why I am in 'kind of love' with him; that was not the case, in college I had yet another crush, yes on a boy and by then I realized I was gay .............. and this has been inside me since then and two decades have gone by ....... living this double life because my family, friends, my society will not accept me, I am afraid to come out. Environment or upbringing has nothing do do with this; trust me on this if you will.

[zinger]

Based upon the very limited research that I have done, there is no evidence of a homosexual gene that leads to a person being a homosexual. I believe, and it is just my belief, that a person becomes a homosexual based upon his or her environment that he or she is born and brought up in.

thought just as much. i was mixing up genes to be "genetic" in the literal sense.

And i would have to agree with JC. i dont think sexuality has anything to do with the environment. it is just a different set of wires being plugged into different points

[SBM]

Is it possible if the environment and the company can modify person's behavior like you are surrounded by Kothari Goons 24/7 all you can hear is the Moula Moula but if you go out the box may be your perception changes.
Can Media or TV affect your thinking power as Homosexuality is now on Global News 24/7 and sometimes people unknowingly want to experiment and then become comfortable with it just like cigarette or marijuana smoking. No one is born as Alcoholic but after a small trial and they become Alcoholic and worst part they do not think they are sick and have no problem ( I do not mean to divert the ongoing discussion between Anjami-JC and Nithze)
It may not be choice many not be Genes but is it possible it can be combination of many factors. Despite all that I still say that I am not to judge anyone choice or state of mind let Allah decide and I will not demean a person because of his life style.
Read the following and get my point
What movies teach us

AMERICAN MOVIES TEACH US:
1. Chinese have nothing better to do than teaching or practice Kung Fu.
2. More than 50% of U.S. population are FBI/CIA agents, working undercover.
3. The purpose of school system of U.S. is to promote basketball/baseball.
4. Aliens have special interest in attacking U.S.
5. U.S. is a place where you can meet all mythical creatures like werewolves and vampires.
INDIAN MOVIES TEACH US:
1. At least one of the identical twins is born evil.
2. While defusing a bomb, do not worry, whichever wire you cut… you "always choose the right one".
3. A hero will show no pain, while getting beaten up; but will show pain when a girl cleans up his wound.
4. A detective can solve a case only when he is suspended from duty.
5. If you decide to start dancing on the street, everyone you meet will know the steps...

[Nietzsche]

With regards to the studies/scientific theories I am constructing my argument upon: I am not a researcher, so I cannot tell you that the conclusion I draw are necessarily true. I am drawing my knowledge from reputable sources online. I believe that homosexuality is probably induced by the environment to some extent, but that there is a genetic component to it. That's the great thing about science; just because the data might not be conclusive right now, a few years down the road, a study may be published that sheds more light on the topic. It is strongly insinuated through myriad studies and observation that human behavior is affected strongly by both genes and the environment. Thus, I conclude, based on the information available to me, that homosexuality, like many human behaviors, can probably be linked to genetic and environmental sources.

Since I am not a scientist, and since I haven't been involved in any research (yet) that deals with genetics/ causes of homosexuality, I am simply finding sources and investigating them. Any of you can do this; if you are interested in learning the truth of the matter, rather than allowing your religious view to dictate your beliefs on homosexuality, I urge you to take some time and research the matter. Once you do your own research, you can come to any conclusion that fits you. Before making a judgement on the issue, know the subject.