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[AbdeYamani]

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[RedBox]

Every one knows it and no one can do any thing about it. This show will run like this.

[ilhamafief94]

Hello, I'm Ilham from Indonesia and I'm new here. I have a few questions about this group.

I have studied Dawoodi Bohra for about 2 years, and I am interested in following it. But I found the controversy discussed in this group.
I hope you can explain to me in more detail about this group.

1. First, if the progressive DB separated from Syedna's Dawoodi Bohra, then what is the hierarchy of leadership here? Do you think the dai period is over? Or do you wish there was a different Dai?

2. Second, are traditions such as linasu da'wat, food, clothing, etc., still the same?

3. Third, where can I get books/videos that can teach me how to worship like prayer and other acts of worship?
Previously I was Shia Imamiyah, now I tend to the Ismaili and want to run it.
Is there a whatsapp number for me to inquire directly?

Thank you.

[Admin]

Hello Ilham,

Welcome to the Forum. Please read the articles and discussions below. You'll get your answers and more.

http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/reform_issues/articles/

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8319

Hope this helps.

[ilhamafief94]

Thanks for the answer, it helped.

But something is less specific. My question is simple and specific.Do the Progressive Bohra Dawoodis now want another Da'i Mutlaq or end the Da'i hierarchy with independent leaders?

[Admin]

It doesn't look like you read any of the articles we suggested. If you had, it would be clear to you that progressive Bohras are for the most part demanding "social and administrative" reforms -- which means accountability of funds collected from people, jamat-level democracy (the right to run our own affairs), the end to ex-communication and raza system, the end to the new kind of misaq which makes Bohras slaves to the Syedna. For details on each of these and for the history of the movement please read the articles.

[Sheikh Ali sadiq]

In short progressive doesn't know what they want

[Kaka Akela]

@ ilhamafief94
Admin has given you a lot of good info to read, but has not directly answered
Your question.
Progressive Dawoodi bohras have no objections to the dai-ship, they accept the dai who is rightfully appointed by Nass. Their objection or fight is with the issues under the dai that Admin has mentioned above. Currently, among the Progressives there are some with Mufaddal Saifuddin and some with Taher Fakhruddin as dai.

[Mkenya]

ilhamafief94

I am with neither!

I am on this forum just to observe and, sometimes comment, on the dismemberment of what was once a very united community.
The 'naubat' is before the courts figuring out who of the two is the 'nassed' Dai. The verdict will be like the one of a rich widow (community); either way she will be screwed!

[Admin]

In short progressive doesn't know what they want

You don't have to be snarky. We wanted Ilam to find out for himself, to read and to understand. Reformists' fight was never about the Dai. We never tire of underlining that we accept the institution of the Dai. In the current scenario with the dispute to succession, reformists officially are and will be with the majority of Bohras (this is our understanding). As Kaka Akela has mentioned, there are a few reformists who support Taher Fakhruddin.

[ilhamafief94]

Dear admin, I have read many articles there since one year ago. But I just signed up to become a member now. I understand that the reformers have criticized the Dai a lot since the 51st Dai leadership. But I haven't found the core conclusion of all that.

On the one hand you are separated from Dai, but there are also still admitting it.
Forget about Taher Fakhruddin's followers, they have clearly gone their own way.
It's about the reformers who also don't recognize Taher. If you againts the Dai, who are walayat you with?

My question is very simple. Do the reformers expect the current 53rd Dai or his successor to turn out for the better or do you want to be independent without Dai, with a new organizational structure, or what?

This is a very simple question. This is related to your religious concept.

Thank you, regards.

[Admin]

We are not separated from the Dai. Nor are we against him as an institution. We are against the regime, the administration, the system which he and his family have created to trap and exploit Bohras. Please read the articles again, and don't expect anyone to spoonfeed you. Also, we are not here clarify your every misconception.

[ajamali]

That’s the funniest answer I have heard….. you are not against the “dai”- the one who runs a blatant con, does no real good, cozies up to the Muslim killer, who cuts up little girls, goes around encouraging wailing lessons for little kids, encourages women to limit themselves to the study of home science, encourages people to lick plates …. Oh did I mention, encourages cutting of the genitalia of little girls….. you are not against that person - you are just against the regime and the administration…just the poor boys his institution has indoctrinated to think of him as God and do his every bidding…. Just them…not HIM…He is innocent in all this….

[ajamali]

No no not only are you not against him, you are not separated from him….Oh boy….

[ajamali]

You sicken me Admin….If you are going to take a stand against the dai, take an EFFing stand against all of them…. We know how you already disparage SMB and STF…. Why suddenly go soft on SMS….GEEZ are you starstruck?!!!

[Sheikh Ali sadiq]

In short progressive doesn't know what they want

[Sheikh Ali sadiq]

If I was the progressive leader I would say the current dai position is not legitimate because they don't follow the norms of Fatemi dawat.

We want to abolish current family status as DAI

we want penal of neutral scholars who should elect a new DAI who will be DAI nijaam until the Imam returns. he will just have administration powers to keep the community running. misaq will be just for Imam, dai can be replaced by 5 or 10 years of time period.

[Admin]

That’s the funniest answer I have heard….. you are not against the “dai”- the one who runs a blatant con, does no real good, cozies up to the Muslim killer, who cuts up little girls, goes around encouraging wailing lessons for little kids, encourages women to limit themselves to the study of home science, encourages people to lick plates …. Oh did I mention, encourages cutting of the genitalia of little girls….. you are not against that person - you are just against the regime and the administration…just the poor boys his institution has indoctrinated to think of him as God and do his every bidding…. Just them…not HIM…He is innocent in all this….

Please stop hyperventilating! Read carefully, we said "we are not against the Dai as an institution". Which means, let us clarify, that we accept the system of the Daiship (with all its flaws) but have problems with the incumbent. As for the evils of Mufaddal Saifuddin's regime or, for that matter, of his father's and grandfather's, you are in no position to lecture us. You and your Qutbi ilk continue to idol-worship Burhanuddin Maula and Taher Saifuddin Aqa -- the two founders of this evil empire. Mufaddal Saifuddin is taking their pernicious legacy to great heights, or lows rather. And you in fact would have continued to worship Mufaddal too if there was no falling out with him in this shameless game of thrones.

[Admin]

If I was the progressive leader I would say the current dai position is not legitimate because they don't follow the norms of Fatemi dawat.

We want to abolish current family status as DAI

we want penal of neutral scholars who should elect a new DAI who will be DAI nijaam until the Imam returns. he will just have administration powers to keep the community running. misaq will be just for Imam, dai can be replaced by 5 or 10 years of time period.

Sure, we think reformists would be open to discuss these matters.

[Kaka Akela]

Yes, you may want to do all that but the legendary line comes to mind, " who shall tie the bell".?
You even collectively are powerless. Dai has absolute power. Your selected panel of olema are all a product of same jameas that cowtow to Dai's whims. Besides look what happened on the death of Rasulullah S A, a shura (an appointed panel) elected the 3 khalifas. Without Imam uz Zamaan's ilham and guidance in selection, the position of Dai would have no meaning.
Think before you start typing anything that comes to your mind.

[Mkenya]

ilhamafief94: Is your Ilham (inspiration) enlightened now!

[ajamali]

That’s the funniest answer I have heard….. you are not against the “dai”- the one who runs a blatant con, does no real good, cozies up to the Muslim killer, who cuts up little girls, goes around encouraging wailing lessons for little kids, encourages women to limit themselves to the study of home science, encourages people to lick plates …. Oh did I mention, encourages cutting of the genitalia of little girls….. you are not against that person - you are just against the regime and the administration…just the poor boys his institution has indoctrinated to think of him as God and do his every bidding…. Just them…not HIM…He is innocent in all this….

Please stop hyperventilating! Read carefully, we said "we are not against the Dai as an institution". Which means, let us clarify, that we accept the system of the Daiship (with all its flaws) but have problems with the incumbent. As for the evils of Mufaddal Saifuddin's regime or, for that matter, of his father's and grandfather's, you are in no position to lecture us. You and your Qutbi ilk continue to idol-worship Burhanuddin Maula and Taher Saifuddin Aqa -- the two founders of this evil empire. Mufaddal Saifuddin is taking their pernicious legacy to great heights, or lows rather. And you in fact would have continued to worship Mufaddal too if there was no falling out with him in this shameless game of thrones.

Oh let’s see… as it stands, the dai as an institution does mean that absolute power is vested in him…. Olema blah blah blah…. I don’t think you guys know what you want. That sounded like the most half baked plan ever….

[Sheikh Ali sadiq]

So people are still thinking that Imam is appointing the same family person from last 300 years.

[Sheikh Ali sadiq]

That’s the funniest answer I have heard….. you are not against the “dai”- the one who runs a blatant con, does no real good, cozies up to the Muslim killer, who cuts up little girls, goes around encouraging wailing lessons for little kids, encourages women to limit themselves to the study of home science, encourages people to lick plates …. Oh did I mention, encourages cutting of the genitalia of little girls….. you are not against that person - you are just against the regime and the administration…just the poor boys his institution has indoctrinated to think of him as God and do his every bidding…. Just them…not HIM…He is innocent in all this….

Please stop hyperventilating! Read carefully, we said "we are not against the Dai as an institution". Which means, let us clarify, that we accept the system of the Daiship (with all its flaws) but have problems with the incumbent. As for the evils of Mufaddal Saifuddin's regime or, for that matter, of his father's and grandfather's, you are in no position to lecture us. You and your Qutbi ilk continue to idol-worship Burhanuddin Maula and Taher Saifuddin Aqa -- the two founders of this evil empire. Mufaddal Saifuddin is taking their pernicious legacy to great heights, or lows rather. And you in fact would have continued to worship Mufaddal too if there was no falling out with him in this shameless game of thrones.

you have a valid point here. KQ clan would have continued for more 500 years if their demands were met with MS.

[ilhamafief94]

Admin says we are with Dai on certain note others want Dai replacement. I see a lot of difference of opinion here. Are you all Bohra reformers? Are the Bohra reformers also divided into camps with different goals?

[ilhamafief94]

So how? I am an Imami Shia who wants to move to Dawoodi Bohra. Maybe with the reformers. How do I get recognized? Should I do the misaq and to whom?

Then in the Imamiyah Shia there are several ways of salah, between Marja and other there are slight differences.
Then what about in the middle of Bohra itself? I saw many salah videos of Alavi Bohra on youtube. Is Dawoodi Bohra's salah method exactly the same?

[ilhamafief94]

Hello, I am an Imami Shia who wants to move to Dawoodi Bohra. Maybe with the reformers. How do I get recognized? Should I do the misaq and to whom?

Then in the Imamiyah Shia there are several ways of salah, between Marja and other there are slight differences.
Then what about in the middle of Bohra itself? I saw many salah videos of Alavi Bohra on youtube. Is Dawoodi Bohra's salah method exactly the same?

[Kaka Akela]

ilhamafief94:
If you want to switch from imami shia to Dawoodi bohra shia you need a personal mentor or guide, just asking a whole bunch of questions here will not get you there. I have no idea what idea what country or coty you live in, please go to the local bohra masjid and talk to the imam to assign you a person who will be your mentor. After a few months when you have learned enough then the imam will take your misaq. Now there a couple of books in english giving the history of dawoodi bohra religion and the history of all 53 dai (s). Please read those as well, and you will be as good as any bohra in the world. Asking bunch of questions will get you varied answers and that will confuse more and may even turn you off. Good luck

[kseeker]

Please stop hyperventilating! Read carefully, we said "we are not against the Dai as an institution". Which means, let us clarify, that we accept the system of the Daiship (with all its flaws) but have problems with the incumbent. As for the evils of Mufaddal Saifuddin's regime or, for that matter, of his father's and grandfather's, you are in no position to lecture us. You and your Qutbi ilk continue to idol-worship Burhanuddin Maula and Taher Saifuddin Aqa -- the two founders of this evil empire. Mufaddal Saifuddin is taking their pernicious legacy to great heights, or lows rather. And you in fact would have continued to worship Mufaddal too if there was no falling out with him in this shameless game of thrones.

Oh let’s see… as it stands, the dai as an institution does mean that absolute power is vested in him…. Olema blah blah blah…. I don’t think you guys know what you want. That sounded like the most half baked plan ever….

No it does not - that is a creation of the 51st Dai.. No book I have read states such a thing. If you have, please share the reference.
In the absence of the Imaam, the Dai holds the highest rank.. it does not mean he has the full authority of the Imaam.

This is not to take away respect from the position of the Dai.. Our Dais have done great things..
However, TS, MB and MS/KQ/TF are not Dais...

I personally don't agree with many of the progressive demands and expectations with regards to the evolution of our jamaat... we are not a democracy neither is the system based purely on meritocracy.. there is a form of imperialism and hierarchy which trumps all notions republics hold.. we are not a republic either... so trying to 'change' or 'evolve' is in some essence, un-islamic... but without doubth, the group of people mentioned above are purely and unquestionably unislamic.

[guy_sam2005]

That’s the funniest answer I have heard….. you are not against the “dai”- the one who runs a blatant con, does no real good, cozies up to the Muslim killer, who cuts up little girls, goes around encouraging wailing lessons for little kids, encourages women to limit themselves to the study of home science, encourages people to lick plates …. Oh did I mention, encourages cutting of the genitalia of little girls….. you are not against that person - you are just against the regime and the administration…just the poor boys his institution has indoctrinated to think of him as God and do his every bidding…. Just them…not HIM…He is innocent in all this….

Please stop hyperventilating! Read carefully, we said "we are not against the Dai as an institution". Which means, let us clarify, that we accept the system of the Daiship (with all its flaws) but have problems with the incumbent. As for the evils of Mufaddal Saifuddin's regime or, for that matter, of his father's and grandfather's, you are in no position to lecture us. You and your Qutbi ilk continue to idol-worship Burhanuddin Maula and Taher Saifuddin Aqa -- the two founders of this evil empire. Mufaddal Saifuddin is taking their pernicious legacy to great heights, or lows rather. And you in fact would have continued to worship Mufaddal too if there was no falling out with him in this shameless game of thrones.

In this game of thrones what role do you play????littlefinger would suit most given your ideologies.