Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

[ozmujaheed]

AZ what we also need is progs in other countries outside Aust picking the FGM issue and tipping of media . Times of India and Udaipur times should run the story , Uk should also pick it.

The point is copy the police statement and start sending emails to everyone bohra and non bohra You know.

The primary intent is STOPFGM there after other evils will be easy to stop. This issue is is where we all bohras, non bohras and society agree and can bring down together.

I was discussing with my elder relatives and we argued, they would not understand why it is illegal , but this was good we can disconnect with our past and modernise. They will not influence our future. Mansoos is that generation he is old he is in his late 60s. He will not have a say what ever we do FGM or not people will ignore him whatever he says around FGM , Atleast for fear of imprisonment

I know some non bohras in Australia are already Facebook linking the news stories . One has already 200 likes.

Progs once gain if you are reading this take it from here do not let this opportunity lapse.

[Hussain_KSA]

This is the Sydney Amil Saheb




http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-sheikh-i ... 25ubq.html

Sydney sheikh in court over 'female genital mutilation'

PAUL BIBBY<http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/by/Paul-Bibby> September 13, 2012

A Sydney sheikh has appeared in court in relation to the alleged genital mutilation of two children.

Sheikh Shabbir Vaziri, 56, who police sources say is part of a lesser-known branch of Islam, has been charged with two counts of accessory after the fact of female genital mutilation and hindering investigation of a serious indictable offence.

Police will allege the two girls had the procedure, which is also known as female circumcision, performed on them in NSW when they were aged six and seven within the past 18 months.

Police allege one mutilation was performed in Sydney; the other in another metropolitan area.

Mr Vaziri, who was arrested today, appeared in Burwood Local Court this afternoon and was granted bail.

The magistrate, Chris Longley, noted that the "overwhelming majority of the community would consider [it] a most serious set of circumstances".

[ozmujaheed]

This is the Sydney Amil Saheb

Yes!

[porus]

Being as resourceful as they are, Bohra parents will simply take their girls to countries where FGM can be performed on them with impunity before returning to their own countries where FGM is illegal and enforced. They will feel that they are being true to their 'faith'.

[Muslim First]

It will cost at least $7,000 for 2 to fly to India for flight, exp. in India cost of and lost wages, FGM and religious fees.

What a waste!

[porus]

It will cost at least $7,000 for 2 to fly to India for flight, exp. in India cost of and lost wages, FGM and religious fees.

What a waste!

I am sure that devotees can finance the trip etc. with generous assistance from "Qarz-e-Hasanaa".

[Al Zulfiqar]

this topic has a funny way of popping up at regular intervals on this site and other forums. i often wonder at the motivation behind whoever is out to reinstate interest in this subject.

either the motivation is to titillate or get into some sort of a proxy war, whereby opponents of the practice of FGM hurl it at die-hard islamophobes as a method of hurling abuse or getting even, or its started by someone totally ignorant of what the whole thing is about and wants to learn more.

let us analyse this whole subject dispassionately first from the angle of science and then come to islam.

there are several different types of procedures which can be carried out as part of female genital circumcision.

1. clitoral hood reduction or clitoroplexy: this usually involves a highly delicate and precise partial reduction of the clitoral hood, a thick prepuce of skin which covers and affords protection to the extremely sensitive organ which is called the clitoris, sitting at the top junction of the labia minora and being an inherent part of these external genitalia. this surgery affords enhanced sexual pleasure and feeling of well-being to its recipient, improves genital health as it reduces accumulation of secretions and resultant bacterial growth and odor. it also leads to better hygeine and maintenance of the same.
2. clitorodectomy, also known as clitorectomy: this could mean partial or total removal of the clitoris in childhood and necessarily, partial removal of the labia minora or labioplasty. this type of procedure almost always will never be performed by a licensed professional as it would be against the principles of medicine and surgery, unless warranted by some mitigated crcumstances, which is very rare. such a procedure will not only remove much of the delicate and sensitive nerve receptors that make sex enjoyable for the female and allow her normal human responses, but will in fact cause her pain and accompanying psychological trauma, distress and revulsion from a normal sexual act. most women will learn over time to disguise these negative feelings for sake of marital bliss and harmony, but are in fact being cruelly deprived of their god-given rights to enjoy that which Allah has guaranteed them.
3. FGM or female genital mutilation: this is procedure no. 2 carried out in the extreme, i.e. total excision and removal of the clitoris, almost the entire labia minora, and sometimes the addition of internal suturing to reduce the size of the vaginal opening, enough to allow only the passage of menstrual fluids. this is practised by many african tribes in the sudan, somalia, central and west africa and up until recently in north africa as well. this would often lead to serious health complications, severe internal and external bleeding, disfigurement and crippling infections with life-long disabilities or death as the result. a female who has undergone this will no doubt suffer in silence, but develop feelings of hatred and disgust towards men, society and the sex act. ayan hirsi ali is a victim of such cruelty and its only the opportunity of freedom in the west which has given her the courage to speak out.
4. Vaginoplasty: the recent modern craze of 'enhancing' the natural appearance of female genitalia, by a combination of labiaplasty, slight clitoral hood reduction and plastic surgery to balance and achieve a more symmetrical look in length, size and color of external genitalia. a lot of this is man-made hysteria whipped up by commercial clinics and unscrupulous doctors who specialise in corrective surgery, but is purely a matter of choice and affordability.

what is being practised by bohras is procedure 2 in various degrees, depending on where they live and who is carrying it out. as most of the traditional old women practioners of this procedure in our community are dying and gone, we have bohra lady doctors surreptitiously practising this, who would be carrying out partial clitorodectomy and labiaplasty. from most of my experiences and knowledge, most bohra women from the previous generation were being subjected to an almost 75% clitorodectomy and labial reduction. the newer generation perhaps upto 50-65%, i guess. many liberal bohra parents are opting not to subject their daughters to this.

now finally coming to islam. how can a religion which has throughout the quran and in the life and conduct of its prophet, enjoined equality betwen men and women in terms of piety, endeavour, modesty, work, rewards, punishment, justice, and all the other human values, inflict cruelty on one gender for the selfish interests of the other? the reasons why male circumcision is prescribed in islam is well-known. if health, hygeine and marital pleasure are prescribed for the male, would the females be prescribed its opposite? pain, cruelty and slavery? deprivation of all that is her right in beauty and delight by Allah? just so that she remain subservient and docile and open to abuse by male chauvinists as an object of sadistic pleasure? so she can remain captive and not experience the pleasures and therefore not ask for her rights in marriage?

who else but an insecure male chauvinist, unable to perform or satisfy his wife fully, who wishes to subjugate her as chattel and thus prop up his fragile male ego, who has long-entrenched misogynistic views, would come up with such barbaric cruelty which is being practised in the name of islam? this is another shameless attempt to malign islam by backward and pagan societies who wish to practise those very tribal customs which islam came to remove.

if i remember correctly, asgharali engineer in his book, "the rights of women in islam", in fact correctly mentions that islam and the prophet were courageous enough to actually prescribe partial removal of the clitoral hood, to ENHANCE a woman's sexual experience, not suppress it or extinguish it, and made it mandatory on a man to satisfy his wife as much as he sought his own. in fact, a woman who was denied her conjugal rights could ask for a divorce.

the curious fact in these debates is that its 99.9% ignorant men who rush in like fools to comment. the protagonists with the most right to comment on what has been done to them, are silent or do not participate, another shining example of male chauvinism. bohras who tout themselves as the most modern and liberal of all muslims, have an ancient and totally backward leader who prefers to remain silent or be complicit in this perverted tribal custom which has no basis in islam.

this was posted early on in this thread, but it seems that most people have not read it, or if they have, then they have done so cursorily without paying too much attention to details. this whole debate would have stopped summarily and died in its tracks if only people had bothered to read it carefully.

i came to the conclusion long ago, on my own independently, that if at all the prophet and ali had endorsed female khatna, then this is definitely what they have recommended, ie. procedure no 1. islam is a scientific religion, full of practical wisdom and common-sense and it only makes sense that they would "enhance" a female's sexual pleasure and not "suppress it or deprive her of it". what most men fail to understand is that female genitalia is far more complicated than the male equivalent. thus it also logically follows that any genital alteration or khatna on females also would entail many different approaches. i have detailed them above. its not as simple as removal of the penile hood in males.

what the 'for' and 'against' protagonists are vehemently arguing about is totally besides the point and absolutely irrelevant to the subject. what they only display is only their profound ignorance of the subject at hand, which is perhaps only representative of the injustice and persecution suffered by women since the beginning of time.

what bohra and all women need is their right to enjoy marital bliss, mentally, spiritually, socially and physically as is their due and promised to them by islam and as practiced by its prophet. for ignorant and self-righteous men who have abrogated women's rights and seem to assume that they know what's best for them, i say first understand what you are arguing about. either you believe that both the prophet and ali were male chauvinists who wanted to perpetuate pre-islamic jaahili traditions or they preferred to remain silent on atrocities being committed on women of which they were surely aware.

its high time that admin stopped this thread. by continuing this futile and ignorant debate, all that is being achieved is only this: pouring more scorn and abuse on our women.

as for the silence from our syedna and his establishment on this important issue, i believe that its their complete ignorance, either they are unqualified to comment, they do not wish to be seen making public statements on this secret and taboo subject or they prefer to remain complicit and exercise indirect control of the women in their own household and our community at large.

[ghulam muhammed]

The Cairo fatwa against female genital cutting

On 22-23 November 2006 a conference of Muslim scholars met in Cairo, Egypt, at the world-renowned Al-Azhar mosque, instigated by German organisation TARGET. Over the course of this two-day conference, the group of respected Muslim theologians, clerics and scholars discussed female genital cutting, proscribing it as a ‘criminal offence’ and not in keeping with their religion. This declaration was then set in stone as a fatwa in the Golden Book, a precious Islamic object for distribution to mosques in countries where FGC is practised. The Golden Book includes speeches and declarations from scholars present at the conference as well as information about why FGC is a harmful practice. The Golden Book has been distributed to many mosques around the world, translated into several languages,

[ozmujaheed]

there is a movement in India too

http://www.manushi.in/docs/1417.%20All% ... 0Izzat.pdf

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 79782.aspx

[Bohra spring]

Notice on the Aussie site the case defense lawyer mentioned FGM has nothing to do with religion, is this a sign that muffy will ban the practise ?

If so where does it leave the abdes who were eagerly defending the practise and thousands of girls were abused.

I hope abdes are not lying to protect the practise, if they are this would not be the first time.

I also notice they have sought the case is discussed in private ! What does that mean ?

[think]

I have been exhorting Bohras and others to desist from putting their Dikrio through this horrible practice of Khatna. However, they continue and it results in the following. A medical exam can reveal if the girl was performed Khatna;s o, no amount of lying will help. These days girls are well matures at the age of seven, they do not like this torture. Again, girls talk about their Khatna experience to non-Bohra children or to their teachers. Girls have face book and cellphones. So beware. Kothar and Bhaisahebs will live in their comfortable Devdis and Raiyyat will end in jail. Kothar and Bhaisahebs don’t shed a tear when a Bohra dies. They want their taxes. Unless few Aamils are put behind the bar, this UnIslamic Khatna will not stop.

Sydney couple denies genital mutilation
A Sydney doctor and his wife who belong to a small Islamili sect have denied taking part in the genitalmutilation of their daughters.
17:33 AEST Wed Sep 262012
By Vincent Morello,Police Reporter
A community religious leader who is an associate of the couple has also denied telling others to lie to police about the prevalence of female circumcision in their local community.
The Sydney couple appeared in Parramatta Local Court on Wednesday, charged over the female circumcision of the two girls.
The victims, understood to be the couple's daughters, were aged six and seven when the procedures were carried out.
Court documents show that one procedure took place in metropolitan Sydney and the other on the NSW south coast in the past two years.
The father, 42, and his pharmacist wife,35, have been charged with two counts of female mutilation.
The co-accused man, a 56-year-old sheik, also appeared in court charged with two counts of being an accessory after the fact to female genital mutilation and with hindering the police investigation.
He is accused of telling locals in the past two months to lie to police about the prevalence of female genital mutilation within the community, court documents show.
Their solicitor John Sutton said there was no mention that the alleged offences were part of a religious act.
"It is a very small community," Mr Sutton told the court.
"A very small religious order.
"The allegation has nothing to do with religion."
Outside court, he told reporters there was nothing more to say other than "an absolute denial of the allegations".
The three accused will appear in the same court on November 8.
The Medical Council of NSW may raise the matter with the Health Care Complaints Commission for a possible disciplinary hearing, a spokeswoman told AAP.
The Pharmacy Council of NSW is considering suspending the mother's professional registration.
"The Pharmacy Council is currently considering whether or not such action is required in this instance," the council said in a statement.
A 68-year-old retired nurse was charged with performing the procedure on the two girls and will appear in Campbelltown Local Court on October 3.
Four other women - aged 39, 68, 73 and77 - from Sydney and Wollongong have also been charged in the case, bringing the total accused to eight.
Each woman has been charged with female genital mutilation.
All four are alleged to have been present at one or both of the circumcisions.
They have been granted bail to face Parramatta Local Court on November 7.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/853 ... ion-charge

Email #1 in response to Karachi Bohra killing
Ha bhai aa vaat to bilkul sachi che kemke hajee garment factory no gum noto khatam thayou vohra bhai log ni masti shru thaee gai hati zahir che akho karachi grief ma hoi ane apne grand ceremonies maa mashgool hoi aa waat dunyo no koi bhi mazhab bardasht nahi kare ane ahno anjaam joi ledo ,secondly hammna tak jitna bhi lawahikin che ahne koi bhi maali support nathi malyo bus rato raat qabrastan maa tadfeen ni tawalli thaee ane dafan kafan kari deda. Khabar nahi apno soo anjaam thase ane apan log kahanjai riya che ,aa september no mahino ghano bhari guzro che hum log waste.apnoto allah hi hafiz che Balil laho mola kumwahowa khairun nasirin


Email # 2 Money extortion in name of Tiffin scheme (In media thescheme is claimed to be paid for by Syedna)
Sorry to read this in Karachi but I like tostate that regarding Kurla Jamat where they are forcing to Pay for the tiffin from those who are not taking the tiffin due to some reason are staying Far awayfrom the Masjid and rickshaw are not available and min 25 to 35 Rs required forto and fro to bring tiffin and if you require any Raza then and if you are not taking tiffin than You have to pay all the dues 15 months from where the tiffin were started than only you will get the Raza .People staying in Mumbai have difficulty to meet two end but nowadays we have to first saved or take loan for paying Wajebat and other dues rather than purchase any luxury sorry necessity item for yourself.

[Bohra spring]

Who is paying for the defense lawyer fees ? Is it the Australia jam at or zi yafat funds are trickling through?

I thought I read previously there was suppression order but the reporter has gone to details. What's happening there ?

Hey zinger how would you want this FGM addressed ? What is your idea how we should stop this abuse? Or do you think we should continue the criminal practise ?

[zinger]

Who is paying for the defense lawyer fees ? Is it the Australia jam at or zi yafat funds are trickling through?

I thought I read previously there was suppression order but the reporter has gone to details. What's happening there ?

Hey zinger how would you want this FGM addressed ? What is your idea how we should stop this abuse? Or do you think we should continue the criminal practise ?

Surprising as it may seem to you, and contrary to what your opinions are about us, my friends and i have been advising people about going against it for the last 10 years now.

Thankfully, in some cases we have succeeded, and in some, we have failed.

Even 10 years ago, our decision was based more on psychological aspects than religous. Even today, i still dont know what the truth is. Is it allowed or not, all i know is that if it causes more harm than good, then it deserves to be buried

[SBM]

Another Article
http://dawn.com/2012/04/23/female-circu ... -india-fm/

[badrijanab]

Who is paying for the defense lawyer fees ? Is it the Australia jam at or zi yafat funds are trickling through?

I thought I read previously there was suppression order but the reporter has gone to details. What's happening there ?

Hey zinger how would you want this FGM addressed ? What is your idea how we should stop this abuse? Or do you think we should continue the criminal practise ?

Surprising as it may seem to you, and contrary to what your opinions are about us, my friends and i have been advising people about going against it for the last 10 years now.

Thankfully, in some cases we have succeeded, and in some, we have failed.

Even 10 years ago, our decision was based more on psychological aspects than religous. Even today, i still dont know what the truth is. Is it allowed or not, all i know is that if it causes more harm than good, then it deserves to be buried

Dear Zinger,

Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. and Ameer Al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. has categorically commanded to have female and male khatna. Nabi and his wali know's better about human body than all put together including members of this forum. Should you wish to be abided or not abide by Sunnat of Prophet s.a.w.w. as prescribed in Daimul Islam it is your choice. As fas as Dawoodi Bohra Ismailiya Shia is concerend it is the must for both Reformist and Shabab.

[SBM]

^
Badrijanab
Would you be courageous enough to provide your true name and contact information so Members from Muslim Community as well as the Law enforcement agents can listen to your side and you would have full press coverage to defend your position in the light of Sunnah and Sharia

[badrijanab]

^
Badrijanab
Would you be courageous enough to provide your true name and contact information so Members from Muslim Community as well as the Law enforcement agents can listen to your side and you would have full press coverage to defend your position in the light of Sunnah and Sharia

'Central Board of Dawoodi Bohras Community', Mumbai should do that from Reformist side. And 'Anjuman-a-Najmi', Dawoodi Bohra Shia, Mumbai should do from Shabab side.

Our Jamat should fight leagal battle along with their resourcefullness, Reformist and Shabab institution should fight not individual. But neither Reformist Jamat care for Fatimi Shariyat nor Shabab Jamat.

Reformist Jamat have office bearers with anti-Fatimi faith. And our Anjuman-a-Najmi or Kothar per se are too engaged in building wealth and material resources for self and for their family - they do not care for Shariyat, it is only a tool or business for them to con Mumineen and siphon money out of their pocket into their own.

[Muslim First]

Can Badrijanab Saheb furnish better proof or explaination.

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/427
I would like to know more about female circumcision in Islam. I have read the ahadith where the Prophet told a woman how to perform it. I would like to know if it is optional or obligatory, and - if it is obligatory - whether there is a certain way to do it (what part should be cut?).


Praise be to Allah.
Ibn Qudamah (may Allah have mercy on him) said, in his book al-Mughni: "Circumcision is obligatory for men, and it is an honour for women, but it is not obligatory for them. This is the opinion of many scholars. (Imam) Ahmad said: For men it is more strictly required, but for women it is less strictly required." (al-Mughni 1/70).

Circumcision of the female consists of the removal of a part of the clitoris, which is situated above the opening of the urethra. The Sunnah is not to remove all of it, but only a part. (al-Mawsu‘ah al-Fiqhiyyah 19/28).

In this matter, it is wise to follow the interests of the female: if the clitoris is large, then part of it should be removed, otherwise it should be left alone. This size of the clitoris will vary from woman to woman, and there may be differences between those from hot climates and those from cold climates.

A hadith on the topic of female circumcision has been attributed to the Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him), according to which he said:["Circumcision is a Sunnah for men, and an honour for women," " but there is some debate as to the authenticity of this hadith. See Silsilah al-Ahadith al-Da‘ifah by al-Albani, no. 1935.

How circumcision is to be performed is mentioned in the hadith narrated by Umm ‘Atiyah, may Allah be pleased with her, according to which a woman used to perform circumcisions in Madinah. The Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him) told her: "Do not abuse (i.e. do not go to extremes in circumcising); that is better for the woman and more liked by her husband." [/b] (Reported by Abu Dawud in al-Sunan, Kitab al-Adab; he said this hadith is da‘if).

The scholars’ opinions cited above should be sufficient explanation. And Allah knows best.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid
----------–.-----------------------------------------------------/
Does Daim has better Ahadith?

[Bohra spring]

Badri janab FGM has no place in the future of dawoodi bohras , whether diamul Islam prescribes it or not.

Going down the path of promoting it in these times can cause bohra ism to be blacklisted as a community of jahilias.

Secondly you probably are male and is easy for you to support it, try getting the perspective of the child victim or woman whether if they had a choice would they like this to continue since it interferes with their sexuality ?

Diamul Islam was written by humans and aspects of it which are in conflict with general practices acceptable by majority of Muslims , can be ignored.

[badrijanab]

Badri janab FGM has no place in the future of dawoodi bohras , whether diamul Islam prescribes it or not.

Going down the path of promoting it in these times can cause bohra ism to be blacklisted as a community of jahilias.

Secondly you probably are male and is easy for you to support it, try getting the perspective of the child victim or woman whether if they had a choice would they like this to continue since it interferes with their sexuality ?

Diamul Islam was written by humans and aspects of it which are in conflict with general practices acceptable by majority of Muslims , can be ignored.

Islam i.e. Fatimi Dawat do not run on personal whims and fancies of anyone including you and me. Quran was also written by Humans! But who prescribed it? Allah. Mola Ali a.s. is wali of Allah, his son Hasan/Hussain secceeded Mola Ali a.s. and in chain Imam Muizz a.s. came. So, when Imam Muizz a.s. commands it is flawless and binding on followers. Thus, the book Daimul Islam is in line with Quran and by the virtue of Imam attestation it is flawless. And it is quoting Prophet and Mola Ali that Khatna is the must for both genders.

[Humsafar]

badrijanab, are you trying to say that the Bohras have two flawless books - The Quran and Daim ul Islam? Does that mean both are of equal importance? Does that mean the Prophet Mohammed and Imam Muizz are equal in stature?

[badrijanab]

badrijanab, are you trying to say that the Bohras have two flawless books - The Quran and Daim ul Islam? Does that mean both are of equal importance? Does that mean the Prophet Mohammed and Imam Muizz are equal in stature?

Not only two flawless books. But all those books that are vetted and approved by rightful Fatimi Imams are flawless.

Refer to hadees of Saqlain, Prophet Mohammed joined both index fingers and said to Mumineen, I am leaving two "nafees" things among you: Quran and Ahle Bait. They will remain together like these two index fingures of both hand till they reach me to "hoz-a-Kausar", be associated with these two.

Things that common men cannot find in Quran like how to offer namaz? For its answer one has to refer Sunnat. Things that one cannot find in Sunnat - its answer, one has to seek in authority similar to Prophet = Fatimi Ismaili Tayyabi Imams: their book like Daimul Islam. These was additional info for you. Coming back to your query: Quran is supreme, followed by all books vetted and approved by Imam. Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. is superior than Muizz Imams a.s.

[Humsafar]

badrijanab, are you trying to say that the Bohras have two flawless books - The Quran and Daim ul Islam? Does that mean both are of equal importance? Does that mean the Prophet Mohammed and Imam Muizz are equal in stature?

Not only two flawless books. But all those books that are vetted and approved by rightful Fatimi Imams are flawless.

Refer to hadees of Saqlain, Prophet Mohammed joined both index fingers and said to Mumineen, I am leaving two "nafees" things among you: Quran and Ahle Bait. They will remain together like these two index fingures of both hand till they reach me to "hoz-a-Kausar", be associated with these two.

Things that common men cannot find in Quran like how to offer namaz? For its answer one has to refer Sunnat. Things that one cannot find in Sunnat - its answer, one has to seek in authority similar to Prophet = Fatimi Ismaili Tayyabi Imams: their book like Daimul Islam. These was additional info for you. Coming back to your query: Quran is supreme, followed by all books vetted and approved by Imam. Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. is superior than Muizz Imams a.s.

Thanks. In the larger scheme of things of Islam, Allah and the Prophet how important is female circumcision? Are women spiritually less pure when they do not undergo this procedure? Will they be less of a Muslim? Will they be denied Jannah? Will the Imams be really angry with them? I'm just trying to understand the order of importance of this thing, for surely there are a lot of commands of Allah and the Imams which we Muslims/Bohras do not follow 100% of the time.

[badrijanab]

Thanks. In the larger scheme of things of Islam, Allah and the Prophet how important is female circumcision? Are women spiritually less pure when they do not undergo this procedure? Will they be less of a Muslim? Will they be denied Jannah? Will the Imams be really angry with them? I'm just trying to understand the order of importance of this thing, for surely there are a lot of commands of Allah and the Imams which we Muslims/Bohras do not follow 100% of the time.

Love of Rasool, Wali (Mola Ali a.s.), first Imam Hasan a.s., 2nd Imam Hussain (a.s.) and their rightful chain of Imam till Imam Tayyeb and thereafter till the 100th Imam Quaim/Mehdi is first pillar. Followed by other six pillars of Islam.

Female and male khatna is the command and made compulsory by Prophet & his wali (authorized person). If one do "inqaar" of it is akin to be "nafarmaan" of Prophet thus be awarded punishement accordingly.

Muslim is one who abide by command of Prophet. If one do not abide by command of Prophet on Khatna he is NOT muslim at first place.

Jannat: It is the prerogative of Allah.

Should some one seeks pardon from Imam they generally does pardon, exceptions are there. Like Prophet on victory of Mecca, pardoned everyone but some. It is prerogative of Imam and we cannot comment on their behalf.

[SBM]

Badrijanab
May Allah forgive me but can you provide any historical references if the women of Alh e Bayt or prophet's wives and daughters went thru FGM

[badrijanab]

Badrijanab
May Allah forgive me but can you provide any historical references if the women of Alh e Bayt or prophet's wives and daughters went thru FGM

A peral necklace came in maal-a-ganimat. Hz. Abi Raafe (r.a.) was the Treasurer. He agreed to loan it to daughter of Ali a.s., the caliph of time on the condition that she will retuen after three days; guranteed by herself. Ali a.s. came to know about this, summoned Abi Raafe (r.a.) and firmly asked why did he gave her that necklace? "Because, she is your daughter and she want to wear on the occasion of Eid-al-adha, promised to return aftrer three days, and safety guranteed by her" replied Abi Raafe. Should every women of Ansar and Mujahir be having desire to wear the same necklace, can you give to all? If you cannot, then you cannot give it to my daughter as well. Take it back. And should you be repeating this mistake I will punish you.

Ali a.s. lived in a hut like commen men! Eat the dry bread like poorest of poor so, he can have same feeling like poor. And the poor should not feel guilt over their poor state because when their Caliph too eat similar bread like they themselves they why to have any grudge over poorness.

Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. rejected request of her daughter Molatina Fatima a.s. when she asked one maid. Prophet s.a.w.w. said, if I can give it to every women folk then I will give you too one. Because you are my daughter on this ground I will not give you maid.

Aqeel, brother of Mola Ali a.s. said to Mola Ali a.s. you give me something from public-treasury otherwise I will join camp of Maviya. Mola Ali a.s. replied, there are more deserving people over maal-a-ganimat than you. I will not give you just because you are my brother. Aqeel left Ali a.s. and joined Maviya where he did got money out of public money.

The point, I am trying to impress here is in light of above few facts - it can be inferred that Mola Ali a.s. and Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. are men of high morale. They will not ask their followers to do something which they do not do themsleves.

Hope above helps.

[SBM]

Badrijanab
You went in circles without answering my question, I asked you a direct question can you answer a direct answer
And no your Taawil did not help me at all.

[badrijanab]

Sorry SBM. I do not know answer at this moment. I will try to find. But the points I suggested give the inference that answers your question.

[anajmi]

Not only two flawless books. But all those books that are vetted and approved by rightful Fatimi Imams are flawless.

This belief is junked by the Quran. Consider this ayah of the Quran

2:4 And who believe in that which has been bestowed from on high upon thee, [O Prophet,] as well as in that which was bestowed before thy time: for it is they who in their innermost are certain of the life to come!

The requirement for a muttaqee is to believe in that which was bestowed to the prophet (saw) and in that which was bestowed before the time of the prophet. Since there is no requirement to believe in books that came into being after the time of the prophet (saw) we can safely conclude that these books are not flawless and people who believe in these books to be flawless are themselves are flawed.

[porus]

badrijanab,

Is it not possible to interpret the sayings of Muhammad and Ali ibn Abi Talib (as reported in Daimul Islam) regarding fgm as their personal opinion and therefore, neither farD nor sunna. Furthermore, Daimul Islam does not justify Ali's recommendations with reference to the Quran.

The word for male circumcision is 'khatana' and that for female circumcision is 'khafD'.

Daimul Islam quotes Prophet as saying: الختان الفطرة . That is, "male circumcision is natural".

Prophet further states: لا يترك الأقلف في الإسلام حتى يختتن و لو بلغ ثمانين سنة . That is, "Foreskin should not be left in Islam even if (male) circumcision has to be performed at 80 years of age."

Neither of the above sayings refers to Female Circumcision (khafD).

Daimul Islam quotes Ali as saying: يا معشر النساء إذا خفضتن بناتكن فبقين من ذلك شيئا فإنه أنقى لألوانهن و أحظى لهن عند أزواجهن That is, "O women, if you circumcise your daughters, leave a bit therefrom. This is better for their color (health?) and they will be more appealing to their husbands."

Ali further states: أسرعوا بختان أولادكم فإنه أطهر لهم و قال لا تخفض الجارية قبل أن تبلغ سبع سنين . That is, "Hasten to circumcise your sons for it is purer for them. But do not circumcise your daughters until they have reached seven years in age."

In his first quote, Ali is saying that "IF" you circumcise your daughters....

This does not sound as if he is ordering it or pronouncing it as an FarD, an Islamic obligation.

Similarly, he commands circumcision for sons but is not emphatic about daughters. Considering the word "IF" in the first quote, Ali only states that "if you decide to perform circumcision on your daughters, do not do it before she is seven years old.

Thus, as far as Daimul Islam is concerned, there is no obligation either from Prophet or Ali to perform female circumcision. However, it can be argued that there is a strong recommendation for male circumcision. Even the latter has not been backed by any ayat of the Quran.

Hence, why do we give this an importance of FarD or Sunna when there appears to be no such emphasis by Daimul Islam?