Islamic and unislamic concepts

[humble_servant_us]

. The Prophet/Imam/Dai is considered spirtually our parents. The Dai has said we are his children. So in this case he mehram to us.

One point to understand is that Mehram and non mehram are attributes of a physical relationship and not spritual...

Accepting the fact that DAI is the spritual father does not allow him the virtues of physical relationship. Hence a na-mehram remains na-mehram and a mehram remains mehram to him...

However if u do not agree with this logic and continue with ur argument that sprituality makes him a mehram for all, it raises a question for me and u that he cannot marry anyone as to marry a na mehram is HARAAM...

In either case he has committed wrong....

[hur]

Dear MuslimFirst & BB,
Prostration with the intent (niyyat) of worship if for Allah alone. This is precisely what is called for in the hadiths mentioned. The are many sunni hadiths referencing sujud as'sukar, kissing hands and feet with regards to thanking Allah and respect of the person performed to.

Regarding comments of ziyafat, unfortunately, you have become the kabotar in your preaching of what is happening. Based solely on what you think you know and what others opinions (with the same knowledge). You ever see the cars Sayedna is driven in...who own thems...the person who asked to bring Sayedna to his home for the ziyafat. The costly clothes???? You mean the RS50 slippers, RS500 cotton white kurta, RS350 topi, RS150 tasbih, and RS 25 socks? Is this the costly clothes your talk about? Oh yes and the outrageous living...let's see giving lectures for 2-3hrs, going to everyone and anyone house or other place..because you care of them, giving sabaqs daily, leading prayers at various location daily, and being 93 yrs old...yeah that pretty outrageous lifestyle. Remember he doesn't go clubbing or swimming or lying on the beach or any of the other lifestyles your thinking of. He wear a kurta all day, everyday.

Let me ask you a question...did you think the Dai and his family was poor before he became the Dai? People give him and his family money without question as gifts (najwa). Do you think members family have no idea how to increase the money they have? You talk as they they are just stupid people living off the community. Are you that ignorant of your own clergy and society? Average members of the bohra community have the ability to triple and quadruple their money over a lifetime...why would think the Dai and members of his family don't do the same? The moneys that are given as zakat are used and distributed according to the shariah. If it is not, it is the sin to those who do not spend it as such. We as mumin are required to give zakat to the Imam or his representative (not to who we feel) according to the hadith by Imam Sadiq.

Regarding shaykh title, the term shaykh was and still is used in the arabian penisula for the patriarch or elder leader of a tribe (similar to khan or shah). This was title was typical given to people with various quality: wealthy, diplomat, knowledgeable, army leaders, etc. It was never confined to a religious leaders. You asked for specific hadith, but concept of shaykh was in-grained into the arab society that it was not specifically address (that I could find). Various hadiths refer to old men as shaykhs. Remember the leader of Kuwait, Oman, UAE, are all titled shaykhs..yet have no scholarly background or authorization.

Regarding na mehram, I need to clarify my statements, after reading your reply, I think my words may have been misinterpreted. According to majority of scholars touching the hand or shaking the hand of a non mehram is either allowed or there is no strict opinion taken. There is however a stipulation to this. The hadiths of the Prophet saying men should not look or touch a women infer the act of stimulation, indecency, or to create desire. This is agreed upon by all scholars. The point comes when the Prophet gave allegiance (mithaq or bayt) to women. There are hadiths where the Prophet gave allegiance holding or shaking the womens hands. There are hadiths where he did not touch the women. The analysis is that the act of touching should not promote desire and it is understood that this type of act would not infer desire.

The is another point on this:
It is reported in the two Sahihs that Anas ibn Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) said,
“The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to visit Umm Hiram bint Milhan, who would offer him meals. Umm Hiram was the wife of `Ubadah ibn As-Samit. Allah's Messenger once visited her and she provided him with food and started looking for lice in his head. Then Allah's Messenger slept putting his head in her lap, and afterwards woke up smiling. Umm Hiram asked, ‘What causes you to smile, O Allah's Messenger?’ He said, ‘Some of my followers who (in a dream) were presented before me as fighters in Allah's Cause (on board a ship) amidst this sea cause me to smile; they were as kings on thrones …’”

It is determine by these hadiths that interaction with elders who are not mahrem would also fall under this category...because typically interaction and touching of elders doesn't promote desire.

All of this in relation to the Dai apply, when women go give salam and deedar of the Dai..they do so solely to give respects to the Dai as a spirtual leader and spirtual parent, and without the intention of sexual desire. This would be the same for the Dai (or any other clergy) towards the women. I have seen many clergy not do salams to any women as well.

Regarding understanding the Quran, most of these advances sessions where hidden meanings are related are called "tawil sabaqs". You need to attended the basic sabaqs first then attend the tawil sabaqs.

Regarding charity, you can give as much as you want in sadaqah to whomever you want. But zakat is given to the Imam. And if you feel you are being forced to give you zakat..then you either don't understand the real purpose of zakat (purification) or you are deny a pillar of islam. And then think about it..if you deny a pillar of Islam, why would the clergy give you a "safai chitti"?

[Muslim First]

.
Br. hur
ASAK
You write:

Prostration with the intent (niyyat) of worship if for Allah alone---

Do you mean to say there is another kind of prostration without "niyyat of worship" that you can do to any body or to Garave?

It seems you do not understand plain english of Ahadith I posted. Rasul SAW forbade prostration to any human being or graves. Period.

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in fact forbade standing for one in respect while that person remains sitting.

I believe it is clear from above and Ahadith I quated that prostration to human beings and graves are forbidden no matter what your Niyyat is.

Yes you may do "Sajada-us-Sukar" Allah SWT for bounties granted by him.

Wasalaam
.

[hur]

ASAK Dear MuslimFirst,

I referred to the hadith and ayats you mentioned. All refer to worshiping and nothing related to respect of a person. Even in the fatwa for islamonline the verdict was related to salah and not sajad as'sukar. The following should clarify:

From fiqh us'sunnah by Sayyid Sabiq

Narrated by The majority of the scholars say that it is preferred to make prostrations of thankfulness (shukr) when one receives a bounty or is rescued from some trial. Abu Bakr reports that, when the Prophet sallallahu alehi wasallam received something which pleased him or some glad tidings, he would make the sajdah in thanks to Allah. This is related by Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah, and at-Tirmizhi who says it is hasan.

And al-Baihaqi records, with a chain that meets al-Bukhari's conditions, that when 'Ali wrote to the Messenger of Allah, informing him that Hamazhan had embraced Islam, the Prophet prostrated, and when he raised his head, he said: "Peace be upon Hamazhan, peace be upon Hamazhan."

'Abdurrahman ibn 'Auf relates that the Messenger of Allah went out once and he followed him until he entered a grove of palm trees and prostrated. His prostration was so long that 'Abdurrahman feared that Allah had taken his soul. 'Abdurrahman came to look at him and he raised his head and said: "What is wrong, Abdurrahman'?" Abdurrahman mentioned what had happened, and he said: "Gabriel alehi as-salam came to me and said: 'Shall I not give you glad tidings'? Allah says to you, Whoever prays upon you, I pray upon him. Whoever salutes you, I salute him.' Therefore, I prostrated to Allah in thanks." This is related by Ahmad and by AlHakim who says: "It is sahih according to the criterion of al-Bukhari and Muslim. And I do not know anything more authentic than that."

Al-Bukhari records that Ka'b ibn Malik made a sajdah when he received the news that Allah had accepted his repentance. Ahmad records that 'Ali performed the sajdah when he heard the news that Zhul-Thudayyah of the Khawarij was killed. Also, as mentioned before, Sa'id ibn Mansur recorded that Abu Bakr made sajdah in thankfulness when Musailimah was killed.

The prostration of thankfulness is bound by the same requirements as the prostration in prayer, while some disagree as it is not a prayer. The author of Fath al-'Alam remarks: "This latter opinion is closer to being correct." Ash-Shaukani said: "There is nothing in the hadith to prove that ablution and purity of the clothes and place are required for sajdat-ushshukr. And that is the opinion of Imam Yahya and Abu Talib. And these hadith are silent about any takbir being made with the prostration. In alBahr it is stated that there is a takbir. Imam Yahya says: 'One is not to make the prostration of thankfulness during a prayer as it is not part of the prayer.'"

[Muslim First]

.
Brother hur

I have no problem with Saja-us-Shukar. What people on this board are calling un-Islamic is Bowing and prostrationg in front od Dai and his family. I say it has no base in Islam.

Wasalaam
.

[hur]

Dear MuslimFirst,
what people on this board refer to when bohras prostrate in front of the Dai is sajad as'sukar. This is the same when bohras (all shiah for that matter and most sunni) prostrate at the head of a grave before reciting salams on the grave is sajad as'sukar. We are not worshipping the grave..but thanking Allah for creating this person..as well as a sign of respect for this person. This is the same with kissing the hand and feet of the person. It is not an act of worship but of respect.

Remember the act of sujud (prostration) is not reserved for Allah. The act of sujud with the niyyat of worship is reserved for Allah. There is a huge difference between the two.

[Muslim First]

Br. Hur
You wrote;

This is the same when bohras (all shiah for that matter and most sunni) prostrate at the head of a grave before reciting salams on the grave is sajad as'sukar

Brother
You do not read
I will post again

Sunan of Abu Dawud

Narrated Qays ibn Sa'd

I went to al-Hirah and saw them (the people) prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, so I said: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) has most right to have prostration made before him. When I came to the Prophet (peace be upon him), I said: I went to al-Hirah and saw them prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, but you have most right, Apostle of Allah, to have (people) prostrating themselves before you. He said: Tell me, if you were to pass my grave, would you prostrate yourself before it? I said: No. He then said: Do not do so . If I were to command anyone to make prostration before another I would command women to prostrate themselves before their husbands, because of the special right over them given to husbands by Allah.

Here Prophet SAW commnds us not to Prostrate in front of his grave. Do you read it?

I am sunni and I have not Seen people Prostrate in front of Grave stone. In fact many graves do not have grave stones. Prophet forbade the plasterig of graves or making inscriptions or building anything on them. (Recorded in MUslim).

Wasalaam
.

[BB]

posted 12-02-2004 01:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear hur

You ever see the cars Sayedna is driven in...who own thems...the person who asked to bring Sayedna to his home for the ziyafat. The costly clothes???? You mean the RS50 slippers, RS500 cotton white kurta, RS350 topi, RS150 tasbih, and RS 25 socks? Is this the costly clothes your talk about?

Mr Hur i never told you about the car carrying Auqa Mola when he visits for Ziyafat.I am talking about the costly brand bew Cars they own in Mumbai i am talking about cars of Kotharis.I did not mention about costly clothes of auqa mola i am talking about costly dresses OF all the kotharis if you multilty (50+500+25+350+150)=1075*1000(kotharis)its 10,75000Rs.You did not mention the cost of Bunglows including CAMA HOUSE.

Let me ask you a question...did you think the Dai and his family was poor before he became the Dai?

Yes they were i have heard hundreds of time auqa moula mentioned that BAWAJI saheb e gana ghareebi na diwas dekha che".

People give him and his family money without question as gifts (najwa). Do you think members family have no idea how to increase the money they have?

You mean they are putting it in Bank as fixed deposit or they are involved in some sort of business to multiply it?

zakat are used and distributed according to the shariah. If it is not, it is the sin to those who do not spend it as such.

If that was done properly there wouldn't have been Beggers standing outside Ruadat tahera and many more places.Our bohri sisters wouldn't have been working as Bai in many places.

We as mumin are required to give zakat to the Imam or his representative (not to who we feel) according to the hadith by Imam Sadiq.

No as per sharia we can give this money directly to Poor and needy then why is it taken forcefully.why they visit our house at 2 O clock at night during ramadhan and force us to pay it or face Blacklisted.If people wants to pay it directly to poor then why they don't allow us to do so.

Regarding charity, you can give as much as you want in sadaqah to whomever you want. But zakat is given to the Imam.

No it can be given directly to the poor or needy in your vicinity.

[hur]

Dear MuslimFirst,
I did read your quoted hadith...you did not sufficiently read it though. The Prophet was refering to someone prostrating in worship not respect. A satrap in the mideast was regarded as a divine god personage by pagans (persian and greek).

Women are to honor their husbands (if the men act as they are suppose to) in do respect so much (but not to the point of worship) and this is reason why the Prophet said this. This is the special right that the husband have by Allah.

And friend, I have sunni and shia prostrate in front of grave out of respect and while making dua to the person to Allah in the mideast, africa, and india.

[hur]

Dear BB,

"I am talking about the costly brand bew Cars they own in Mumbai i am talking about cars of Kotharis.I did not mention about costly clothes of auqa mola i am talking about costly dresses OF all the kotharis if you multilty (50+500+25+350+150)=1075*1000(kotharis)its 10,75000Rs.You did not mention the cost of Bunglows including CAMA HOUSE."

--I bring you back to the same point...if it their money why do you complain about how they spent it. The Fatimi Imam were very rich...would you complain about their wealth? So were the Yemeni Dais.

"Yes they were i have heard hundreds of time auqa moula mentioned that BAWAJI saheb e gana ghareebi na diwas dekha che"."

--And how did they get rich? Wasn't it the late Adamji Pir Bhoy who donated Badri Mahal to the past Dai? Didn't you know many family members have bought and sold properties they owned and have businesses?

"If that was done properly there wouldn't have been Beggers standing outside Ruadat tahera and many more places.Our bohri sisters wouldn't have been working as Bai in many places."

--If zakat was paid properly instead of haggled to death or not paid at all...yeah we probably wouldn't have that problem.

"No as per sharia we can give this money directly to Poor and needy then why is it taken forcefully."

--firstly, per shariah sadaqa can go directly to the poor and needy. This is not zakat. Secondly, according to shariah, zakat goes to the leader of the community to distribute. This is what the Prophet, the first three kaliphas, Mawalana Ali when his was kaliph, and the Imams thereafter for the shiahs did.

"why they visit our house at 2 O clock at night during ramadhan and force us to pay it or face Blacklisted."

---I highly doubt you got called at 2 am. Most amils or "chamchas" don't work that early...let alone go to YOUR house!!

"No it can be given directly to the poor or needy in your vicinity."

---If your sure about this..quote from the Quran and/or hadith to base it. Remember to read the arabic first though.

[Muslim First]

Br. hur
Uou wrote:

I did read your quoted hadith...you did not sufficiently read it though. The Prophet was refering to someone prostrating in worship not respect. A satrap in the mideast was regarded as a divine god personage by pagans (persian and greek).

I do not see this 'Batini' twist in Hadith I posted.

I understand this way. Prophet asked Qays ibn Sa'd " if you were to pass my grave, would you prostrate yourself before it? "

Qays ibn Sa'd "No".

Then Prophet said: "Do not do so"

Two lessons I learn from this Hadith:
1. Do not Prostrate in fort os Sirtap (Any kind of leader). (It does not matter Prostration of Respect or Worship)

2. Do not Prostrate to graves not even Prophet's.

Ending Note:

We have argued enough about this subject. I do not think I can convince a Kothari Bohra that Ruku and Sajud are for Allah SWT only.

For you is your religion (Bohra Religion)
For me it is Islam

Wasalaam.
.

[BB]

-------------------------------------------------
-I bring you back to the same point...if it their money why do you complain about how they spent it.
------------------------------------------------

We have no problem what they do with thier own money we are concerned about the Huge amount they collect forcefully in the name of zakaat,wajebaat,sabeet and many more taxes and never been used for the purpose its been collected.

_________________________________________________
--And how did they get rich? Wasn't it the late Adamji Pir Bhoy who donated Badri Mahal to the past Dai?
_________________________________________________

You mean they sold BADRI MAHAL and became rich but badri mahal is still there!!!!!

_________________________________________________
--If zakat was paid properly instead of haggled to death or not paid at all...yeah we probably wouldn't have that problem.
_________________________________________________

from my home town they collect app 50,00,000 Rs and they don't distribute a single penny to any of the poor family in my town .where is this money being distributed?

"No as per sharia we can give this money directly to Poor and needy then why is it taken forcefully."

Regarding paying directly to needy or poor i have already qouted quran ayya which explian this.

_________________________________________________
---I highly doubt you got called at 2 am. Most amils or "chamchas" don't work that early...let alone go to YOUR house!!
_________________________________________________

They visit your house and bachelors hostel at 2 o clock at night during last 5-6 days of ramadhan and they force you to pay the zakaat.this started 4 years back when taha bhai saheb visited Kuwait and now its every year like that.You can vouch this claim.

Mr hur are you OK?you are calling hounourable Shiekhs(worth 10,000kd on instalment),Mullas(worth 2000kd),NKDs(free of charge)Chamchas.may be some one is reading this and u might face "BARAAT"...

[hur]

Br. MuslimFirst,
I gave posted hadith and ayats allowing sajadah as'sukar (prostration without worship), kissing hands and feet out of respect...written by a sunni scholar.

You posted one hadith with the Prophet saying they should not prostrate in worship to anyone.

I am tried of running across the same points. Take what you want and leave what you want.

[hur]

Dear BB,

"We have no problem what they do with thier own money we are concerned about the Huge amount they collect forcefully in the name of zakaat, wajebaat, sabeel and many more taxes and never been used for the purpose its been collected."

---zakat and wajibat go to the leader..ie the Imam or his representative. Sabil goes to the jamat organization to run it. What other taxes are you refering to?

"You mean they sold BADRI MAHAL and became rich but badri mahal is still there!!!!!"

--No I meant they receive hugh donations (like Badri Mahal) both monetary and properties.

"from my home town they collect app 50,00,000 Rs and they don't distribute a single penny to any of the poor family in my town .where is this money being distributed?"

--Firstly was that Rs 50 crores or lakh? Secondly, the funds collected do not have to go directly to the poor. It can be used for religious buildings, funding student to attend jamia, etc.

"Regarding paying directly to needy or poor i have already qouted quran ayya which explian this."

---You quoted Quranic ayats explain Sadaqah..not zakat.

"They visit your house and bachelors hostel at 2 o clock at night during last 5-6 days of ramadhan and they force you to pay the zakaat.this started 4 years back when taha bhai saheb visited Kuwait and now its every year like that.You can vouch this claim."

---Paying zakat is required, even by force. This is according to the traditions of the Prophet and Mawlana Ali. They usually started on the last 10 days.

"Mr hur are you OK?you are calling hounourable Shiekhs(worth 10,000kd on instalment),Mullas(worth 2000kd),NKDs(free of charge)Chamchas."

---I used the term in anger...its a term reformists love.

[Humsafar]

Hur,

I wonder what compels you to defend such a corrupt and discredited system of priest craft. Either you must be blissfully naïve or one of the few who stand to gain - money, prestige whatever - from the status quo. There might be a third possibility, but for the life of me I can't think of any.

Anyways, I'd like to take issue with several points you raise here and in another thread but the very thought of it makes me weary - I neither have the time nor patience to engage with a closed mind. Besides, all these issues have been discussed time and again on this board. Pls read them - you'll do all of us a favour.

Although I've successfully managed to ignore your crotchety diatribe thus far, this gem caught my attention:


---Paying zakat is required, even by force. This is according to the traditions of the Prophet and Mawlana Ali. They usually started on the last 10 days.

First, there is no compulsion in Islam, probably you know this.
Second, probably you do not know this, that your masters not only use force but also violence, torture, harassment etc. to get what they want. And flunkies like you can find justification for all this till you froth at the mouth. But probably you do not realise that only cults tend to use force on their members. To repeat the point, a religion that uses force for its survival (purely material in this case) is not a religion, it's a cult. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck…

Pls do not expect any further comment on this.

[Africawala]

Dear brother BB,

"may be some one is reading this and u might face "BARAAT"... "

Mr. Hur or Ms. Hur does not have to face Baraat because, by his/her own admission in this forum in the past, he/she is not a bohora.

Someone on this site had quoted a sermon from Nahjul Ballagha on how to collect Zakat. May be this person can reprint it here and refresh our memory. Thanks.

[hur]

Dear Africawala,
I am not a bohra, but I am a shiah, and have many bohra friend. I grew up in a community closely related to the bohras...this is why I know there background...to the point where I attend ashara with them in mosques..because my community doesn't have one here.

Regarding Zakat, from Nahj ul'Balaghah:

About the Islamic Tax (zakat)

Then, Islamic tax has been laid down along with prayer as a sacrifice (to be offered) by the people of Islam. Whoever pays it by way of purifying his spirit, it serves as a purifier for him and a protection and shield against fire (of Hell). No one therefore (who pays it) should feel attached to it afterwards, nor should feel grieved over it. Whoever pays it without the intention of purifying his heart expects through it more than its due. He is certainly ignorant of the sunnah, he is allowed no reward for it, his action goes to waste and his repentance is excessive.

Fulfilment of Trust

Then, as regards fulfilment of trust, whoever does not pay attention to it will be disappointed. It was placed before the strong skies, vast earths and high mountains but none of them was found to be stronger. vaster, or higher than it. If anything could be unapproachable because of height, vastness, power or strength they would have been unapproachable, but they felt afraid of the evil consequences (of failure in fulfilling a trust) and noticed what a weaker being did not realise it, and this was man.

. . . Verily he was (proved) unjust, ignorant. (Qur'an, 33:72)
Surely, Allah, the Glorified, the Sublime, nothing is hidden from Him of whatever people do in their nights or days. He knows all the details, and His knowledge covers them. Your limbs are a witness, the organs of your body constitute an army (against yourself), your inner self serves Him as eyes (to watch your sins), and your loneliness is open to Him.

[hur]

Dear Humsafar,
why is it that when I have a defense or do not support YOUR view...I am labeled closed minded?

As I pointed out to Africawala, I have nothing to gain from speaking when appropriate.

Regarding no compulsion,
"There is no complusion in religion" is true until the person says the shahadah. Once the person takes the shahadah...EVERY IS THAT IS WAJIB IS REQUIRED. From that point whatever the person doesn't perform or believe it is considered a sin against them. Zakat however is something that effects the community and so if you want to apart of the community of believers...you must perform this part.

And regarding your force...what you describe as force..I have yet to witness or hear of from a reliable source. Some of the bohras I know in the US have not paid zakat and khums for a much as five years to the jamat. Yet they still go to every majalis. Yeah the amil give them a hard time...but torture...I think your pushing it there.

[serendipity]

Dear Hur, As a shiah, I'm curious to know if you also see the bigger picture when it comes to belief in the Imam....The most important thing after all, is to ACKNOWLEDGE him and his influence on the believers. (A friend who happens to be a bohra cleric says that EVERYONE who acknowledges his Guidance is his hujjat!) That's a very enlightened concept, in contrast to all the negativity that gets "served up" here everyday. If the embittered members of this board would devote an ounce of their energy and a fraction of the time they expend on blasting the "Establishment" to personally seeking for Guidance, they might be surprised to discover they RECEIVE it.

[Africawala]

Dear Hur,

Actually I was looking for the following which was posted by brother Muslims on 07-09-2004.
__________________________________________________
Actually, if you read Nahjul Balagha, letter 25 there is a statement by imam ali on zakat collectors: "When you reach a group of people (tribe or village) to assess a tax on them, then stay only at their watering-place (a well or water-hole the most convenient place for stay in desert regions) and do not stay in their houses. Then go to them maintaining your dignity and prestige and when you are in their midst, wish them peace and blessings of Allah and show due respect to them. Tell them that the Caliph of Allah has sent you to collect from them their dues to Allah. Ask them whether they possess enough means to pay the dues of Allah that you may gather them and pass them on to His Caliph. If somebody tells you that he does not possess enough wealth to make him liable to pay taxes then do not worry him and accept his plea. If someone tells you that he is in a position to pay Zakat, then go with him to his house, field or pasture (because Zakat was then collected in coins as well as in kind). But do not frighten him or make him nervous and do not behave with them with undue harshness or tyranny. Then accept the gold or silver which he offers."
__________________________________________________

[serendipity]

I'd like to add to what I said earlier....bohra tradition is not a "literal" tradition. Therefore my friend's words (that I mentioned above) apply to us today. Don't wait for some hierarchy to come "out of hiding" to prove the truth to you. If you have the courage to do so, take to heart the words spoken by Imam Mustansir to al-Muayyad: "ya hujjatan/ shi'atuna qad adamu rushdahum/ fil gharb ya wa fi al-mashriqi/ fan'shur lahum ma shi'ta min 'ilmina."
("0 you Hujjat!/ Our Shi'a have lost their guidance, in the West and in the East/
Spread for them, what you like of our knowledge and be with them as an affectionate father.") These words of the 5th century or 11th C.E., describe our condition today. So if you really want to "reform" or purify, it's best to start with some "proof" in your OWN lives.

[anajmi]

Danish,

I did not ask what they did not mean. I asked what the ayahs meant.

Do you know what they mean or not?

[Africawala]

Dear Hur,

In response to your post of 12-10-04,
How do you justify your claim that you are a non-bohora on the basis of the following quote that you posted on 11-22-2004:

"Regarding ziyafat, three of my own relative in Mumbai have been honored with them...no money but just an ardhi to Maula, through a shahzada. I have heard of others personally as well. Again, as I noted, the only ones that get publicity is where a rich person has the ziyafat because they are more extravagant. Alot of time, those who are not well off have a joint ziyafat at a mosque or another person's home for Maula."

[mumineen]

Hur:

Caught again!

Liar, Liar, pants on your fire!

"A carpenter is being hoisted by his own petard".

"The chicken really came home to roost"

"You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time."

Bravo Africawalla, Sherlock Holmes, I presume, e'h! Now hur's excuse will be that his sister/brother/uncle/aunt or someone from his Shia family is married to a Bohri or one of his ancestors was misbehaving with a Bohri.

[BB]

well hur also showed the true colour of our orthodox bohri's culture.Lieing is the biggest weapon of our bohri culture.If our leaders are lieng in majority of issues than how can we expect honesty from people like Hur.I really wasted my time and energy in arguing with such a "LIAR" .I CLOSE MY DISCUSSION REGARDING ISLAMIC AND UNISLAMIC ISSUE RIGHT HERE.

[Muslim First]

Brothers and sisters

Is hur and qiyam same person?
Hur made appearance on 12/31/2003
Can somebody find qiyam's last post.

A Kothari Bohra cannot participate on this board, but he can pretend to be a shia close to Kothar.

Wasalaam
.

[JC]

Will some one explain me:

What Bohrasim (to hell with it !!!!)

ISLAM says on....... GAYs and GAYISM ???

[hur]

Thank you BB and Africawala for insituating on my behalf...backbiting has its own rewards? No I am not Br. Qiyam...if you looked...you would know we have commented on similar topics before. And even those posted I mention I was a shiah. Just because I showed up on the last few topics..doesn't mean I wasn't reading before.

Hey, here's an idea..maybe Africawala and BB are the same person?!

Regarding my relatives...as I mentioned I am a shiah...some of my relatives married into bohra families. What...you never heard of that??!!

Mumineen...please remember to reply to my arguments related to the topic. Using your lack of understanding on my bio is no excuse. Thanks.

[hur]

Just as side note on how rare my relatives are...refer to the link..and note the date.

http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgibin/UB ... 1;t=001230

[Africawala]

Dear friends,

Some people on this board are like a dog going in a circle and chasing its own tail and all confused. I give up.