Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

[Biradar]

Incidentally, just to clarify a few things. I have myself done very careful, near forensic, analysis of the video/audio from Raudat Tahera. As I reported here earlier, even with the best filtering software I could not hear that SMB pronounced anything like nass on Muffy. He was clearly incapacitated and seemed not fully aware of his surroundings. The question of Cromwell Hospital audio/video is a more open one, as this has not been subject to careful analysis. I do not believe it has yet surfaced in the court proceedings, but it may now that the doctor is set to testify in April. The reality is that once Muffy played the audio and showed the video, for most Bohris the case was closed. They believed Muffy and his Iblisi Toli and stopped paying much attention to the FD claims. In fact, many friends I had who were not fully convinced till then by Muffy's claims basically turned to his side completely at that point. Hussain Qutbuddin said he would give an explanation "shortly". Years have gone by, and apparently he has forgotten all about it.

In many ways, the behavior of Muffy during the lifetime of SMB disqualified him from any high rutba in dawaat. He was notorious was opposing his own father's mazoon, conspiring against him and leading a palace coup against him. Also, after SBM's brain stroke Muffy's behavior was atrocious. All of this has been discussed ad nauseam here. No need to repeat it again.

However, the reality is that SMB, specially towards the end, was power hungry and had become a megalomaniac. His courting of Modi and other Hinduvta leaders was despicable. It is not surprising that then his son would invite Modi in his bhashaan sabha during the days on ashara. It is a natural continuation of the policy his own father had started. SKQ stayed silent, enjoying life and raising his kids in luxury, sending them here and there to various private schools to get educated. He may have been influential in the early era of SMB's life but clearly had lost all authority for many decades. The incidents in Africa also sullied his reputation. It is possible all of this was orchestrated to make him look bad and deliberately humiliate him, a possibility I have myself raised here many times before. However, the fact that he totally lost control and eventually the sons of SMB took over the community completely tells us something about his priorities and his moral courage. Or lack thereof.

In any case. My point is not that Muffy is the right da'i or his claims are justified, but that SKQ and his family are no exemplars of high moral character or courage. Rather the opposite. After decades of silent enjoyment when they saw that they were about to lose control of the community properties, they suddenly grew a spine and filed cases in Gujrat high-court, in UK Charity Commission for control of properties. Or, at least that is what SKQ and STF's followers here admit, perhaps inadvertently, is the real reason for the Bombay High Court case.

All of this moot anyway, as far as the Progressives (with a capital "P") are concerned. This case will drag on and on and god knows how many years will go by. SKQ is no more and SMB's brothers are falling like flies. Hopefully we will know who gets to suck off, like parasites, the community resources by the time we are dead or deranged.

[mustafazr]

Please, spare me the usual progressive regurgitated mantra. Criticisms against SMB RA are getting old and simply have no room in discussion. The Dawoodi Bohra doctrine is rather straightforward: the Dai, as the representative of Imam uz Zaman, is always on haq or furthermore, haq personified. You either accept that, in which case you implicitly accept that there are answers to questions that might arise, and you strive to (humbly, I should note) get to those answers. Or you don't, in which case you are not part of the faith. The faith allows (in fact encourages) one to ask questions. But one is not free to criticize the Dai, as it obviously invalidates the very faith one would claim to profess.

I don't presume to know what your contributions are, if any. But years of anonymous commenting (or should I say complaining) on a web forum doesn't speak to much. SKQ RA established Dawat on the day when, quite literally, his physical life and that of his family was in danger. What have you done, to justify your criticisms of him? You would like him to display more courage? What have you done to go up against the establishment that is Shz Mufaddal Saifuddin and those who support him. The very same establishment responsible for majority of the corruption that occurred in SMB RA era and continues to occur today.

Regarding precedence with STS RA, I have absolutely no idea what you are attempting to get at. STS RA took up the Chandabhai Galla case, in which they accused him of being nazim Dai due to nass not being conferred on 47th Dai. He defended that issue in court, a nass that occurred generations before him. Where the actual testimony occurred is immaterial.

Shz Mufaddal Saifuddin has made every attempt to deflect, avoid and altogether have the case dismissed. A case that accuses him of being a fraud, liar and clearly not fit to be Dai. He has attempted, in every manner, to shy away from the court case as he shied away from public debate that SKQ RA and subsequently STF TUS invited him too. There is absolutely no precedence for a Dai shying away, this persistently over these many years, from a debate, hujjat I should say, to prove their position.

"This is the first thing SKQ tried after the passing away of SMB" How do you know? Were you with him then? Yes, eventually, he did file a court case, the same one that is continuing till this day. Thanks for your informed legal opinion on "it is highly unlikely ... will lose control of "all community trusts in the country" /s. I'll choose to maintain my faith in the jihad of Imam uz Zaman's Dai, not you.

If you would like to genuinely know, the court case is simply about who is, legally speaking holds the title of, the Dai al-Mutlaq of the Dawoodi Bohra faith. Naturally, all trusts and community estates are tied to the holder of this position. So yes, the court case has real-life ramifications. It is about haq. It is about preserving and safeguarding the future of the community, a community that has been hijacked by liars and thieves, and more importantly, providing a path for najaat and bring back, those who have strayed, to the fold of Dawat. The legal recourse is quite obviously the only path to achieve this.

Finally, I don't care much for your personal insults, but I will comment that it is extremely ironic that you mock me with the "obedient" label. What is the point of this mockery? For someone who regularly offers deep history lessons to others, have you really missed such a simple basic tenet that young children in Madrasa understand? Obedience is the core of the faith. Obedience to Allah and his representative, Wali Imam uz Zaman, and in satr, the Imam's Dai. Just as it was incumbent upon Muslimeen at time of Rasulullah. This is rather quite straightforward.

[mustafazr]

What are you going on about - Cromwell hospital video. In the same breath that you accuse Shz Mufaddal Saifuddin of despicable acts, and admit that it is apparent SMB RA's condition was not one that was fit to pronounce nass, days later after a stroke in a public setting among thousands, in that very same breath, you demand an explanation for an alleged nass on the day of the stroke. In a hospital, witnessed by his family members who all supported Shz Mufaddal Saifuddin. An incident they only released "audio" and "video" of after the wafaat of SMB RA. Do you not hear yourself? What more of an explanation do you want?

What most community members believe today, under duress by the establishment, is moot. Not that I need to give an history lesson, but if haq and numbers went together hand in hand, at all points in time, well let's just say history would be very very different. The numbers today are a result of decades of scheming that has occurred. Inshallah things will improve.

Shz Mufaddal Saifuddin is free to bring into evidence whatever he can muster up for alleged nass on him. If he was confident about his evidence, he would come testify to its effect. Rather, he'll now be forced to send someone on his behalf. That even, I presume he'll send someone, let's see what happens after Dr. Malik.

[mustafazr]

Not that I care to say more on this, but the Cromwell hospital "incident" has even less of a leg to stand on, than the alleged nass in Raudat Tahera (not that the latter has any leg to stand on either).

In their version: Shz Mufaddal Safiuddin is in the town, but SMB RA, proceeds to pronounce nass without his mansoos' presence (apparently SMB RA wants to pronounce nass immediately because he has just suffered a stroke and fears for his life? Dai of Imam uz Zaman is shaken by a single medical incident!?). SMB RA does so without the presence of his alleged mansoos, but right after after pronouncing nass, asks to call his mansoos to see him? He could not wait a few minutes to pronounce nass? Conveniently, all of this means Shz Mufaddal Saifuddin is not a witness to his own nass and thus, legally cannot testify to it. Then this mansoos attends the hospital room, along with Shz Qaid Joher Ezzuddin, who proceeds to do an araz to SMB RA. Then finally, at the end of araz, Shz Qaid Joher Ezzuddin goes and does qadambosi of SMB RA first, before the now-pronounced mansoos who is standing right there!? What? They present an "audio" of part of this incident and a "video" of part of this incident, but they are not of the same time period, so one cannot verify that anything heard was from this actual incident.

If all of this isn't a clear sign of their scheming, I don't know what is.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

I think it may more be a matter of courage. The man MS does not have the required courage to face the intellectual force of SKQs children. His handlers are smart in judging that he cannot be trusted to show up in court without getting totally crushed by STFs lawyer and Justice Patel who has little patience for nonsense.

Second, the reality of the matter is that SKQ's children really don't have much "intellectual force". They are equally superstitious and backwards looking as Muffy's Iblisi Toli. They may be somewhat better but that is like distinguishing between one gulag and another. In reality, starting with SMB the Bohri leaders have always supported tyrants, murderers and thugs. Did SKQ raise his voice when SMB was having fun with Modi, Bal Thakre and other Hinduvta leaders, who have now taken over the country and are splitting it apart from their racist and anti-Muslim policies? No, he did not. SKQ sat in his luxurious homes in Saify Mahal, Thane and Bakersfield, enjoying a nice and peaceful life. As he was sidelined he simply enjoyed himself by traveling and building up various real-estate in different countries. And, sending his kids to various expensive private schools, including in Australia and elsewhere, and universities at the expense of the community.

Let us see examples of the lack of "intellectual force of SKQs children": they have not even completed the things they said they will do. For example, they started "Ikhwan as-Safa" series. Failed to complete it. They started "Qur'an interpretation series". Failed to complete it. Started "Islamic Finance" series. Failed to complete it. Their weekly newsletter became twice a month and now is only published occasionally. The website is hardly updated.

Most important of all: they have not provided a clear answer to the various claims put out by MS on nass issue. They are hiding behind the case and saying things can't be openly discussed at present. But why? Years have gone by and the water has long flowed under the bridge. People have lost interest in the issue as as far as mainstream Bohras are concerned the battle is already fought and won by Muffy. The key was the video/audio from the hospital for which they have remained totally silent. It is possible that SMB was heavily drugged and confused but clearly something happened in the hospital for which the FD people have no explanation.

Now, I am personally convinced that SMB did nass on SKQ but 50+ years of silence and fun lifestyle makes it hard to be convinced that SKQ or his kids are good leaders or guides for the community. They need to seriously apologize to the community as they were silent when many horrible things were happening, and hence confess they have no moral authority to lead.
MS
Now, again, I am not saying that Muffy is the right da'i, but clearly at this point the question of right and wrong is moot. SKQ by his own 50 years of inaction in which sat at home enjoying himself became bereft of any moral high ground. While genuine dissenters were being tortured and beaten he sat quietly, having fun with his children. Muffy is cut from the same cloth, but is just more ruthless and willing to do anything to gain power. So please don't tell us about Muffy being sacred "to face the intellectual force of SKQs children". Muffy does not care. He has won already and this case makes absolutely no difference to him at all.

Agreed with some of the things that you are saying. As for the nass video/audio, I am not so sure. Could it be that it can be used in court as an evidence against MS BS, and that their (FD's) commenting publicly on it may invalidate it, and that is why they have kept quiet?

After all, who has more interest in disputing it then FD, but they have not said anything, and they (FD) mentioned (a month or so after the video was put out) that they are constrained by the legal case. Hopefully we may gain some more insight now - wishful thinking ??

Also, MS BS lawyers (some Fazalboy and Fazalboy ???, I think) resigned after they showed the video. Correct? When lawyers resign, I don't know what to make out of it? Not a good sign ?

Also, that it has taken so long - sadly, that is more a reflection of the Indian court system, then FD. What could they do in that matter?

[dal-chaval-palidu]

Do we know how many total witnesses are there from Shehzada Mufaddal Bhaisaheb' side, and what are their names?

And, what has Dr. Omar Malik from London said about treating SMB that is publicly available?

As I understand it, the witness list will be presented on Tuesday. Omar Malik’s affidavit will be presented on March 10.

Do we have the full list of all the witnesses from MS BS side?

[ajamali]

As I understand it, the witness list will be presented on Tuesday. Omar Malik’s affidavit will be presented on March 10.

Do we have the full list of all the witnesses from MS BS side?

No news yet. Perhaps MS is reconsidering because we called him chicken here.

[ajamali]

Wow! You go away for a day and Volumes get written on this forum!

[RedBox]

I REALLY HOPE THAT NO ONE WINS THIS CASE AND FINALLY, COURT DECIDES TO GIVE ALL THE PROPERTY BACK TO THE RIGHTFUL OWNERS (MOMEENIN) INCLUDING THE SAIFI MAHAL WHICH WAS SNATCHED BY BURHANUDIN EVEN WHEN THE PERSON WENT TO COURT AND FINALLLY HE DIDNT EVEN GOT PLACE FOR BURIAL, BUT STILL THUG FAMILY IS LIVING IN SAME HOUSE.

I ALSO PRAY THAT COURT EXPOSE THEM AND FINALLY WRITE IN THE JUDGEMENT THAT THESE GUYS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE IMAM AND THEY ARE JUST USING HIS NAME TO FILL THEIR COFFERS.

[Ambassador_Mumbai]

Retracted.

[RedBox]

these ideals and ideas are now just for books, these so-called present dais will never follow this advice.

world is just for them who have money and want to fool others in the name of religion or nationality

[Nafisa]

Both books are very interesting and informative.
History of Du’at was written by Janab Ahmed Bhaisaheb bin Syedi Ismailji Bhaisaheb, Mamajisaheb of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin. In these books he has recorded scandals, corruptions, love affairs and Rangeen Qissa of “Qasre Khali Sahebo” during the last 200 years.

Salaam,
I hope the following two rare books will enrich the knowledge of the readers, especially members of the oppressed community of Dawoodi Bohras. It is requested to the members of the community to not fault the Aqidah of Fatemi Dawat after reading this hidden history. This is solely the crime of the leadership. They are busy in money minting from morning to night. Dawat is for Allah and it is Imam uz Zaman (AS) alone who controls it as the Hujjat of Allah on this Earth. It is an unfortunate fact that today we are without a sincere and true Dai. This is the reason that after grabbing huge funds of Wajebat for the last 40 years, the underprivileged of our community is still spending life in misery in India, Pakistan, Africa, Bangladesh etc. If the leadership spent only one year’s collection of Karachi or Mumbai sincerely on poor Dawoodi Bohras, definitely their lifestyle would improve. Instead, the total amount of the Wajebat is swallowed by the immediate family of the Dai. Similarly, all the inhabitants of Saify Mahal spend their lives like the Rajas of the past princely Indian states. The Noor of Allah however is always shining in the darkness of seclusion and the morning of the Zahur of the Imam of Ahl al Bait (AS) is not so far. It is our responsibility to remain steadfast on the path of Ahl al Bait (AS) and groom our children and teach them the lesson of love of Panjatan(AS). We should follow the good deeds as much as we can, to the best of our knowledge and consistently hold on to the Walayat of Imam uz Zaman (AS).

This short history of the Fatemi Du’at (Dawoodi Du’at) disclosed by their immediate family members openes a new pandora box, which is interconnected to today’s Bombay High Court Case. The innocent followers aren’t even ready to realize the facts which encompass their life. Therefore, these horrible details of the history of Du’at are beyond their imagination. However, this book draws the attention of the readers who wish to know the deformation occurred around 200 years ago in the Dawoodi Bohra religious setup. The 51st Dai systematically took over the charge of the command from the hands of the learned Shaikhs and assigned it to his family members, appointing them over all lucrative positions. Syedi Ismail Bhaisaheb, the brother in law of Syedna Taher Saifuddin, was one of the leading scholars of the Dawoodi Bohras who compiled several books in Urdu, English and Arabic and examined these changes in the community. This book was written by his son, Ahmed Bhaisaheb Luqmani.
.My Experience and My Will.pdfA Short History of Fateemi Duaat.pdf

[dal-chaval-palidu]

Salaam,


I hope the following two rare books will enrich the knowledge of the readers, especially members of the oppressed community of Dawoodi Bohras. It is requested to the members of the community to not fault the Aqidah of Fatemi Dawat after reading this hidden history. This is solely the crime of the leadership. They are busy in money minting from morning to night. Dawat is for Allah and it is Imam uz Zaman (AS) alone who controls it as the Hujjat of Allah on this Earth. It is an unfortunate fact that today we are without a sincere and true Dai. This is the reason that after grabbing huge funds of Wajebat for the last 40 years, the underprivileged of our community is still spending life in misery in India, Pakistan, Africa, Bangladesh etc. If the leadership spent only one year’s collection of Karachi or Mumbai sincerely on poor Dawoodi Bohras, definitely their lifestyle would improve. Instead, the total amount of the Wajebat is swallowed by the immediate family of the Dai. Similarly, all the inhabitants of Saify Mahal spend their lives like the Rajas of the past princely Indian states. The Noor of Allah however is always shining in the darkness of seclusion and the morning of the Zahur of the Imam of Ahl al Bait (AS) is not so far. It is our responsibility to remain steadfast on the path of Ahl al Bait (AS) and groom our children and teach them the lesson of love of Panjatan(AS). We should follow the good deeds as much as we can, to the best of our knowledge and consistently hold on to the Walayat of Imam uz Zaman (AS).

This short history of the Fatemi Du’at (Dawoodi Du’at) disclosed by their immediate family members openes a new pandora box, which is interconnected to today’s Bombay High Court Case. The innocent followers aren’t even ready to realize the facts which encompass their life. Therefore, these horrible details of the history of Du’at are beyond their imagination. However, this book draws the attention of the readers who wish to know the deformation occurred around 200 years ago in the Dawoodi Bohra religious setup. The 51st Dai systematically took over the charge of the command from the hands of the learned Shaikhs and assigned it to his family members, appointing them over all lucrative positions. Syedi Ismail Bhaisaheb, the brother in law of Syedna Taher Saifuddin, was one of the leading scholars of the Dawoodi Bohras who compiled several books in Urdu, English and Arabic and examined these changes in the community. This book was written by his son, Ahmed Bhaisaheb Luqmani.
.My Experience and My Will.pdfA Short History of Fateemi Duaat.pdf

Short History of Fateemi Duaat says this is Part II. Is there a Part I ?

[Ambassador_Mumbai]

Should be, but I don't have it. You can contact Progressive Jamaat in UK. They should have it.

[Nafisa]

Readers should know about the author of these two books, which created Zalzala in Saify Mahal, Mumbai. Syedi Ismail Bhaisaheb was son of Shaikh Luqmanji Ibn Syedi Ismail Kaparvanji . This Shaikh Luqmanji was father in law of Syedna Taher Saifuddin and Syedna Abdulla Badruddin. Therefore Ismail Bhaisaheb was brother of Huseina Aai Saheba w/o 51st Dai, Syedna Taher Saifuddin and Rubab Aai Saheba w/o 50th Dai Syedna Abdullah Badruddin. The credibility of the secret facts discussed in these books by the learned scholar of the Dawat is beyond the scope of doubts as he was brother in law of the two Dawoodi Du'at.

Salaam,
I hope the following two rare books will enrich the knowledge of the readers, especially members of the oppressed community of Dawoodi Bohras. It is requested to the members of the community to not fault the Aqidah of Fatemi Dawat after reading this hidden history. This is solely the crime of the leadership. They are busy in money minting from morning to night. Dawat is for Allah and it is Imam uz Zaman (AS) alone who controls it as the Hujjat of Allah on this Earth. It is an unfortunate fact that today we are without a sincere and true Dai. This is the reason that after grabbing huge funds of Wajebat for the last 40 years, the underprivileged of our community is still spending life in misery in India, Pakistan, Africa, Bangladesh etc. If the leadership spent only one year’s collection of Karachi or Mumbai sincerely on poor Dawoodi Bohras, definitely their lifestyle would improve. Instead, the total amount of the Wajebat is swallowed by the immediate family of the Dai. Similarly, all the inhabitants of Saify Mahal spend their lives like the Rajas of the past princely Indian states. The Noor of Allah however is always shining in the darkness of seclusion and the morning of the Zahur of the Imam of Ahl al Bait (AS) is not so far. It is our responsibility to remain steadfast on the path of Ahl al Bait (AS) and groom our children and teach them the lesson of love of Panjatan(AS). We should follow the good deeds as much as we can, to the best of our knowledge and consistently hold on to the Walayat of Imam uz Zaman (AS).

This short history of the Fatemi Du’at (Dawoodi Du’at) disclosed by their immediate family members openes a new pandora box, which is interconnected to today’s Bombay High Court Case. The innocent followers aren’t even ready to realize the facts which encompass their life. Therefore, these horrible details of the history of Du’at are beyond their imagination. However, this book draws the attention of the readers who wish to know the deformation occurred around 200 years ago in the Dawoodi Bohra religious setup. The 51st Dai systematically took over the charge of the command from the hands of the learned Shaikhs and assigned it to his family members, appointing them over all lucrative positions. Syedi Ismail Bhaisaheb, the brother in law of Syedna Taher Saifuddin, was one of the leading scholars of the Dawoodi Bohras who compiled several books in Urdu, English and Arabic and examined these changes in the community. This book was written by his son, Ahmed Bhaisaheb Luqmani.
.My Experience and My Will.pdfA Short History of Fateemi Duaat.pdf

[dal-chaval-palidu]

Should be, but I don't have it. You can contact Progressive Jamaat in UK. They should have it.

May be somebody from there can post it.

[Biradar]

There are two competing claims here. SKQ was claiming that nass was done on him in private and such a private nass is perfectly valid. Let's assume this was true. However, SMB lived for 100 years and his reign was long, 50+ years. Why did he not make this explicit later when he had the chance and his kids were still young and could not have made much chaos. Clearly, in the early years of SMB's reign there was a lot of love between Muffy, Qaid Johar (aka Qaid Chor) and SQK, as many letters they exchanged prove. Hence, the argument "talwaaro chali jaase" is weak. Clearly, Muffy and Qaid Johar were not the one to chalaoo talwaar on SKQ. So who was SMB was so afraid of? His own brothers? If so, what type of a spineless coward was he?

Muffy is saying nass was done on him in Cromwell hospital and then in Raudat Tahera and even earlier (which, being a moron, he does not remember the exact dates). Now, there are audio and video from Cromwell hospital, though not from the same occasion (apparently. It is hard to tell). Muffy's brothers were witnesses, though Muffy was not present. Chela of FD says that this is not valid (or at least Muffy can't testify as to this) as Muffy was not witness to his own nass. However, this is rich coming from a side that claims that nass in private is perfectly fine without any witnesses! Also, Chela should inform us if there are no cases in the past in which the nass was done in the absence of the mansoos. And, further, why one should not believe the brothers of Muffy who claim they are witnesses to this.

Clearly, despite all this hidden nass business, neither side is an exemplar of morality or ethics. SMB himself was very fond of wealth and luxury and loved photo-ops with rich and famous, and every tyrant and dictator under the sun. He amassed gargantuan wealth and supported his enormous family of thousands. Under him the Dawaat became a money making machine. Every rotund fat ignorant kid of some random moronic shehzada was feted and pampered and treated like a king. SKQ also benefited from the Dawaat business. He bought properties, sent his kids to expensive schools and universities and enjoyed a relaxed and retired lifestyle. Never once did he emerge from hiding and enjoying to say anything against the excesses of his brothers or his nephews. Rather, he travelled to the US, to Australia, to various vacation spots to take maximum advantage of the luxurious lifestyle his family could afford on the community funds.

So either way, the bohris are in a sorry situation. As Chela has agreed, this is all about controlling properties and income from the community. One side (Muffy) has everything at present, and the other (FD) wants it. It is a classic mafia story in which the battle is to control the business, independent of how much trauma and distress it causes others.

FD people are too inward looking also, and it is also a family business for them. STF clearly wants to keep everything in his family, lavishing titles and positions to his brothers and his sisters. Even during the time of SMB this was the case, as SKQ was very close to his family and perhaps over pampered them, making them think only they have some sort of monopoly on the dawaat. So for both sides this is about maintaining a family monopoly on power, funds and properties. It is clearly not about religion as neither side (provably) has any moral courage or principles to oppose tyranny. Rather the opposite, they embrace tyrants and thugs who are now tearing apart the country with their racist anti-Muslim action and rhetoric.

[Sceptical]

Clearly, in the early years of SMB's reign there was a lot of love between Muffy, Qaid Johar (aka Qaid Chor) and SQK, as many letters they exchanged prove. Hence, the argument "talwaaro chali jaase" is weak. Clearly, Muffy and Qaid Johar were not the one to chalaoo talwaar on SKQ.

I'm pretty sure that this is a reference to the powerful brothers of SMB, especially Yusuf Najmudin (father-in-law of SMS). On my side, I think that the intended successor of SMB was indeed SKQ. But with the growing power of SMB's sons and the financial stakes, the 52nd Dai changed his mind.

The properties of Dawat-e-Hadiya are the real issue in this case. SKQ had obtained from the Gujrat government that the properties would not be passed under the name of SMS. But in many countries (especially in Africa), shortly after the trial began, SMS emissaries systematically changed the titles of the properties: instead of Dawat-e-Hadiya, the owner became SMS in person. As a result, even if STF wins the case, most of Dawat's properties will remain in the hands of SMS heirs.

[Biradar]

Clearly, in the early years of SMB's reign there was a lot of love between Muffy, Qaid Johar (aka Qaid Chor) and SQK, as many letters they exchanged prove. Hence, the argument "talwaaro chali jaase" is weak. Clearly, Muffy and Qaid Johar were not the one to chalaoo talwaar on SKQ.

I'm pretty sure that this is a reference to the powerful brothers of SMB, especially Yusuf Najmudin (father-in-law of SMS). On my side, I think that the intended successor of SMB was indeed SKQ. But with the growing power of SMB's sons and the financial stakes, the 52nd Dai changed his mind.

I have written about the nefarious Yusuf Najmuddin extensively on this forum. He was the Infernal Tree whose Iblisi fruit is Muffy. Clearly, he hated his younger brother (i.e. SKQ) and schemed against him all his life. He knew would never be da'i or even hold any position in the dawaat, but machinated to ensure that his son-in-law would become da'i, independent of the fact (which he likely suspected) that the SMB had appointed SKQ already as his successor. However, the point remains: SMB seemed terrified of his brothers. Why? Would could they have done if he had openly reprimanded them? Nothing. Or, maybe they had some hold on him (SMB) which they used to blackmail him into submission.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

Clearly, in the early years of SMB's reign there was a lot of love between Muffy, Qaid Johar (aka Qaid Chor) and SQK, as many letters they exchanged prove. Hence, the argument "talwaaro chali jaase" is weak. Clearly, Muffy and Qaid Johar were not the one to chalaoo talwaar on SKQ.

I'm pretty sure that this is a reference to the powerful brothers of SMB, especially Yusuf Najmudin (father-in-law of SMS). On my side, I think that the intended successor of SMB was indeed SKQ. But with the growing power of SMB's sons and the financial stakes, the 52nd Dai changed his mind.

The properties of Dawat-e-Hadiya are the real issue in this case. SKQ had obtained from the Gujrat government that the properties would not be passed under the name of SMS. But in many countries (especially in Africa), shortly after the trial began, SMS emissaries systematically changed the titles of the properties: instead of Dawat-e-Hadiya, the owner became SMS in person. As a result, even if STF wins the case, most of Dawat's properties will remain in the hands of SMS heirs.

My thinking is that if STF wins the case in India, and it is enforceable, it will have a significant impact. The Bohra history and bulk of attachment is to 4 states. Maharashtra (Mumbai), Gujarat (multiple cities), Rajasthan (Galiyakot, Udaipur), and Madhya Pradesh (Indore, Ujjain). If STF wins decisively in the above 4 states, it will make a difference.

Even if it works out in Gujarat and Maharashtra, that is where large amounts of Bohra population and ziyarats are, it will have significant impact. Africa and other places will likely follow what happens in India - that is what I think. But I could be wrong.

[Biradar]

My thinking is that if STF wins the case in India, and it is enforceable, it will have a significant impact. The Bohra history and bulk of attachment is to 4 states. Maharashtra (Mumbai), Gujarat (multiple cities), Rajasthan (Galiyakot, Udaipur), and Madhya Pradesh (Indore, Ujjain). If STF wins decisively in the above 4 states, it will make a difference.

Even if it works out in Gujarat and Maharashtra, that is where large amounts of Bohra population and ziyarats are, it will have significant impact. Africa and other places will likely follow what happens in India - that is what I think. But I could be wrong.

May I ask you why you think the court has any authority to determine who is the da'i? Even if there is dispute over property and a secular state will have laws which the dawaat must follow, the choice of a religious head surely can't be determined by courts. At this point the answer to who the vast majority of Bohris think is da'is is clear: it is Muffy. This court case won't make any difference to them. The fanaticism in the community is very high and people genuinely believe Muffy is the best thing that has happened since sliced bread. Or even better.

Also, say Muffy loses this case. Then what? There will be appeals in various states, in the Supreme Court eventually. How many generations will go by before all legal means are exhausted? Already SKQ is no more and brothers of SMB are falling like flies. So who will remember all this drama? Who will care? And, most importantly, what happens if STF loses? I want to hear from FD fanboys. Will they shout Mola, Mola Muffy Mola?.

[mustafazr]

Biradar -

I'll begin by addressing the question you put to me, but then, I am not debating with you any further until we get a few ground rules clarified. I'll get to them later.

On your question to me, I did not say alleged nass on Shz Mufaddal Saifuddin at Cromwell Hospital is invalid because he was not present, I said that according to them, SMB RA did nass and then immediately called Shz Mufaddal Saifuddin. It is rather natural that if one is going to appoint someone to a position, and that person is nearby and able to attend, you would ask them to be there in person for the appointment. Not make the appointment, and then call them just to see them. This is one of many inconsistencies which indicate the incident as a fraud. As for the audio and video from Cromwell Hospital, it is not "apparently. It is hard to tell" that they are from separate occasions. They are, in fact, from separate occasions. This is how it was presented in Masjids all around the world, few months after the passing away of SMB RA. The audio is from the alleged nass instance, and the video is from a later time when they attended the hospital room for qadambosi. Why wasn't the nass instance also video recorded? This is another inconsistency, among others.

As for debating with you, this is not sustainable. You are all over the place. You move from topic to topic, without any rhyme or reason, without responding to previous points that were put to you. You don't clarify your own stance, unclear if you have a stance at all or if you just wish to take the opposing view to all points put here. All of your responses seem to be in effect to glorify your own self, and demean everyone else of poor intellect. You lack basic decency, using abusive language throughout your posts and name-calling those who you are debating & call out your arguments, yet simultaneously insist it is these others who are childish.

This conversation started when you stated that Shz Mufaddal Saifuddin "not showing up has nothing to do with courage", that he is not concerned about the outcome of the case and you made various accusations against SKQ RA. I responded to that, then you moved on to insulting SMB RA & SKQ RA (you find a way to fit that in every post of yours, related or otherwise), questioning the precedence of Dai in court with regards to STS RA testimony, questioning the motive of the court case and debating on the validity of nass instances presented by Shz Mufaddal Saifuddin. I responded to that, and now you have moved on to other claims, as to why SMB RA kept the nass on SKQ RA private, more insulting SMB RA & SKQ RA (as usual, without any logical footing, just grand generalizations) & how the motive of the court case is not to up to your standard since it is a "classic mafia story in which the battle is to control the business, independent of how much trauma and distress it causes others", another grand sweeping statement without any tether to reality.

Regardless, if you wish to debate further, for starters, please explicitly clarify your stance. Answer the following questions, from the options given to you. If the answer to any question is in the negative, you do not need to answer the questions that follow. Then we can debate further on that point.

Do you believe in the existence of God? Options: Yes / No / I don't know.
Do you believe Rasulullah SAW is the Messenger of God, i.e. are you a Muslim? Options: Yes / No.
Do you believe Ameerul Mumineen SA is the wasi & successor to Rasulullah SAW, i.e. are you a Shia? Options: Yes / No.
Do you believe the Imams, starting from 1st Imam, Hasan Imam AS, until 21st Imam, Tayyeb Imam AS are true Imams? Options: Yes / No, I only believe till the nth Imam (specify what is n).
Do you believe the Dais, starting from 1st Dai, Syedna Zoeb RA, until 54th Dai, Syedna Taher Fakhruddin TUS are true Dais, representing the Imam in seclusion? Options: Yes / No, I only believe till the nth Dai (specify what is n).

[mustafazr]

dal-chaval-palidu -

All High Courts in India are equivalent, and a judgment order from any one High Court holds jurisdiction over the whole country, regardless of which city the order originated from.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

dal-chaval-palidu -

All High Courts in India are equivalent, and a judgment order from any one High Court holds jurisdiction over the whole country, regardless of which city the order originated from.

Thanks.

On a note related to this topic, do we know by now the list of witnesses from MS BS side? As also, the written evidence submitted by Dr. Omar Malik? Can any of that be publicly shared?

[mustafazr]

I presume the media will report on it, like they have done with most major developments. I can confirm that Defendant's advocates have submitted no further name, other than Dr. Malik. They have merely made a passing comment that they have "lots of witnesses; expert, translations, various nass incidents, etc."

[mustafazr]

Regarding evidence, the court does not allow either side to make any evidence public, especially for a matter that is currently being heard, so it is not possible to post it at this point in time. There are, in all likelihood, over 10,000 pages of paper evidence, in addition to numerous audio and video submissions.

You may contact either side and talk to them individually regarding your specific questions and to see if they will let you review portions of it. Regarding Plaintiff STF TUS side, you can email info@fatemidawat.com with questions. Or you may contact me, my email is my username at gmail.com. I do not know who you could contact on the Defendant's side.

[Biradar]

Biradar -

I'll begin by addressing the question you put to me, but then, I am not debating with you any further until we get a few ground rules clarified. I'll get to them later.

I have no interest in debating you. Sorry, but you can't put ground rules for me or anyone else. You may not realize this, but this is not your closely controlled echo chamber where you dictate the rules. I will post when I feel like and on what topics I feel like. Please don't tell me what rules to follow. It is clear you feel that just like in your closely guarded mafia orgs we can't ask questions as we please. This is a "Progressive Dawoodi Bohra" board. Not a FD board or a Muffy board.

I will continue to follow the case closely and making comments as I please. If you don't like it no need to read what I say. Simple.

[mustafazr]

Hah, that's rich. "closely controlled echo chamber". I asked you to respect basic decency, avoid name calling & clarify your beliefs. Clearly, all you are interested in is maintaining anonymity & stroking your ego.

[yfm]

I these dais are impostors, then why are their followers not impostors also?

Let us wait for the Imams to appear.

Are the imams going to reappear if they believe the dais are impostors and the followers of dais are also impostors.

Why should not the imams fear for their lives, if they were to appear?

I am going to sleep and so should all the impostors.

[RedBox]

Imam is not going to come for bohras or ghachi or lotiyas or shia or sunni or wahabi

Imam is going to come for sincere Muslims who are present in all sects and only those will support him when he will come Inshallah,


all else will remain in the delusion of their own sects and beliefs.