In 2001 Jonah Blank had written a book “Mullahs on the Mainframe.” It is, as writer/researcher himself claims, regarding “Islam and Modernity among the Daudi Bohras.” It is available on net and many interested people must have read it.
However, I would like to quote some of his observations here serial-vise for the benefit of those who have not read this book and discussion on them.
The writer of the book, Jonah Blank is honest enough to say in the Introduction:
In attempt to conduct research in an orthodox Bohra community anywhere in the world would be virtually impossible without the active or tacit cooperation of the religious authorities. The clerical official notes that no such research had ever been authorized and allowed prior to my study. My own study idled for over a year before earning the dua (blessings) of dai al mutlaq Sayedna Mohammad Burhanuddin. After my eighteen months of fieldwork, in Mumbai, Surat, Karachi, Calcutta and other sites the blame for any controversial information rests with me rather than those who have helped me. This is all the more important for the members of the Bohra clergy, a group closely bounded by family ties and famously wary of outside investigators.
The Bohras uphold most aspect of orthodoxy as faithfully as any Taliban priest could wish. In all matters of prayers, dress, physical comportment, and even avoidance financial interest, they are highly conservative…..
The dawat can compel a certain degree of orthodoxy merely by fiat, but the imposition of ideology on an unwelcoming populace could hardly provide a sound basis for long-term success.
My study is limited to the upper segment of the Bohra society.
Further study would be required to determine the extent to which less privileged segments of Bohra society subscribe to the values of the elite stratum that provided the statistical basis of my survey.
This study does not aim to present all aspects of Bohra society in details: the picture I attempt to paint is primarily that of the orthodox paradigm.
The society I describe is that of its most devout members, those Bohras whose lives are centered on the person and teachings of the dai-al-mutlaq. How representative are these circles of Bohra society at large remains an open question.
Since my questionnaire was distributed in four geographically disparate locations (Mumbai, Nagpur, Karachi and Calcutta) with the cooperation of the dawat, I present its finding through occasional references in text. The participating families were those with children in dawat madrasas, the most devotional elite of the group. They represent only one segment of the Bohra community. I wish to emphasize, however that most important element of my fieldwork was participant observation rather than survey data.
To be continued chapter-wise.
Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Dear Insaaf saheb,
I have read the book, its a intresting one. Though author has taken a pro-syedana stand, but still i think its worth a read. Beside he has dedicated a whole chapter on dissidents.
I guess he could not have conducted the study with out the permission and assistance from kothar authorities. but still author has really done it well.
I have read the book, its a intresting one. Though author has taken a pro-syedana stand, but still i think its worth a read. Beside he has dedicated a whole chapter on dissidents.
I guess he could not have conducted the study with out the permission and assistance from kothar authorities. but still author has really done it well.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Dear Insaaf saheb,
I have read the book, its a intresting one. Though author has taken a pro-syedana stand, but still i think its worth a read. Beside he has dedicated a whole chapter on dissidents.
I guess he could not have conducted the study with out the permission and assistance from kothar authorities. but still author has really done it well.
I have a ecopy of book, so any body intrested i ll be more than happy to share....
I have read the book, its a intresting one. Though author has taken a pro-syedana stand, but still i think its worth a read. Beside he has dedicated a whole chapter on dissidents.
I guess he could not have conducted the study with out the permission and assistance from kothar authorities. but still author has really done it well.
I have a ecopy of book, so any body intrested i ll be more than happy to share....
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
i like to know
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Chapter One is on “Historical Background: The Root of the Faith”.
Both dawat and dissident sources place the worldwide population of Daudi Bohras at one million.
Daudi Bohras are 0.5 of Indian Muslims and fall into the “ajlaf” rather than “ashlaf” category of India Muslims.
The dynasty of dia-ul-mutlaq is claimed to be of Rajput Kshatriya descent.
Where as bulk of Bohras are mercantile jatis of the vaishya varna descents.
Ismaili History: Pre-Fatimid History.
Islam’s formal split was on the question of earthly governance – should the rule be entrusted to the most Saintly candidate or to the most Effective one?
First three khalifas were from Quraishi tribe. Quraishis were the most powerful tribe in Arabia, and Umayyads were the most powerful clan in the Quraishis.
Many Umayyads were barely reformed polytheists (believers of more than one god) more concerned with Privilege than Righteousness.
Prophet Mohammad and Ali were the members of Hashemite clan. Ali had grown up in the Prophet’s own house. Ali was more concerned with Righteousness than Privilege.
Some companions of the Prophet who had fought against the Umayyads at the disastrous battle of Uhud were annoyed at the domination of their old enemies.
When Uthman was murdered the community leaders chose Ali as caliph. The first challenge to him came from Aisha (daughter of Abu Bakr) and Muawiya, leader of Umayyad clan, who claimed the caliphate for himself. Ali marched against Muawiya. But he agreed to a compromise when he had a chance to crush Umayyads.
On this issue some most militant soldiers of Ali broke away and formed a rival group (Kharijites) and one of its extremist assassinated Ali.
After Ali community at Kufa chose Hasan as Imam and community at Mecca, Medina and Iran. In Six month he renounced in the favour of Muwaiya on condition that he and his followers be permitted to preach their doctrines freely. After eight years he was poisoned by the new caliph.
Muawiya ruled unchallenged for twelve years till he died.
Husain and his seventy two companions were slaughtered by four thousand soldier of Muawiya’s son Yazid. That day is known as Ashura.
Bohras both mourn and commemorate the martyrdom of Imam Husain.
Husain’s only son Ali Zain was not massacred. He after the death of his father adopted an outwardy quietistic attitude and did claim community’s leadership openly. Later Shia tradition considered him Imam.
The supporters of Ali within 100 years after Prophet’s death developed their own distinct theology. Its basic outlook was radically different from that of Sunni mainstream.
In his life time Prophet Mohammad was the sole source of guidance, sole channel through which God conveyed His instructions. The Sunnis framework for religious guidance is on revealed Quran and hadiths. Shias adopted a model of continuous spiritual authority of holy Prophet in the person of his blood relatives. For them to suggest that God could be bounded by the limits of human intelligence would be blasphemy, so the only way to understand Quran’s true meanings would be through some greater-than-human agent. That agent is Imam. A concept that remains central distinction between Sunnis and Shias.
In Shia belief as formulated by Imam Jafar al-sadiq, the imam, a bridge between Creator and created is masum (sinless). God has sent his prophets at a particular time and place. The function of Imam is to interpret prophets’ revelation. An Imam must always be present in the world to interpret the teachings of the Prophet.
Chapter One will be continued…
Both dawat and dissident sources place the worldwide population of Daudi Bohras at one million.
Daudi Bohras are 0.5 of Indian Muslims and fall into the “ajlaf” rather than “ashlaf” category of India Muslims.
The dynasty of dia-ul-mutlaq is claimed to be of Rajput Kshatriya descent.
Where as bulk of Bohras are mercantile jatis of the vaishya varna descents.
Ismaili History: Pre-Fatimid History.
Islam’s formal split was on the question of earthly governance – should the rule be entrusted to the most Saintly candidate or to the most Effective one?
First three khalifas were from Quraishi tribe. Quraishis were the most powerful tribe in Arabia, and Umayyads were the most powerful clan in the Quraishis.
Many Umayyads were barely reformed polytheists (believers of more than one god) more concerned with Privilege than Righteousness.
Prophet Mohammad and Ali were the members of Hashemite clan. Ali had grown up in the Prophet’s own house. Ali was more concerned with Righteousness than Privilege.
Some companions of the Prophet who had fought against the Umayyads at the disastrous battle of Uhud were annoyed at the domination of their old enemies.
When Uthman was murdered the community leaders chose Ali as caliph. The first challenge to him came from Aisha (daughter of Abu Bakr) and Muawiya, leader of Umayyad clan, who claimed the caliphate for himself. Ali marched against Muawiya. But he agreed to a compromise when he had a chance to crush Umayyads.
On this issue some most militant soldiers of Ali broke away and formed a rival group (Kharijites) and one of its extremist assassinated Ali.
After Ali community at Kufa chose Hasan as Imam and community at Mecca, Medina and Iran. In Six month he renounced in the favour of Muwaiya on condition that he and his followers be permitted to preach their doctrines freely. After eight years he was poisoned by the new caliph.
Muawiya ruled unchallenged for twelve years till he died.
Husain and his seventy two companions were slaughtered by four thousand soldier of Muawiya’s son Yazid. That day is known as Ashura.
Bohras both mourn and commemorate the martyrdom of Imam Husain.
Husain’s only son Ali Zain was not massacred. He after the death of his father adopted an outwardy quietistic attitude and did claim community’s leadership openly. Later Shia tradition considered him Imam.
The supporters of Ali within 100 years after Prophet’s death developed their own distinct theology. Its basic outlook was radically different from that of Sunni mainstream.
In his life time Prophet Mohammad was the sole source of guidance, sole channel through which God conveyed His instructions. The Sunnis framework for religious guidance is on revealed Quran and hadiths. Shias adopted a model of continuous spiritual authority of holy Prophet in the person of his blood relatives. For them to suggest that God could be bounded by the limits of human intelligence would be blasphemy, so the only way to understand Quran’s true meanings would be through some greater-than-human agent. That agent is Imam. A concept that remains central distinction between Sunnis and Shias.
In Shia belief as formulated by Imam Jafar al-sadiq, the imam, a bridge between Creator and created is masum (sinless). God has sent his prophets at a particular time and place. The function of Imam is to interpret prophets’ revelation. An Imam must always be present in the world to interpret the teachings of the Prophet.
Chapter One will be continued…
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Br. Insaf
Asalam U Alekum
This question I have asked many SHIA scholars and I was never given a satisfactory answer. SHIAS consider Ahl Bait as MAASUM (One who doesnot commit mistakes or sinless) and here again Alh Bait is related to Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) who is also considered MAASUM
HERE IS MY QUESTION IF PROPHET IS MAASUM THEN WHY ALLAH REVELED SURAH ABASA in which Allah has reminded Prophet when he ignored a blind man. Does
not that SURAH indicates that nobody is MAASUM or sinless.
Asalam U Alekum
This question I have asked many SHIA scholars and I was never given a satisfactory answer. SHIAS consider Ahl Bait as MAASUM (One who doesnot commit mistakes or sinless) and here again Alh Bait is related to Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) who is also considered MAASUM
HERE IS MY QUESTION IF PROPHET IS MAASUM THEN WHY ALLAH REVELED SURAH ABASA in which Allah has reminded Prophet when he ignored a blind man. Does
not that SURAH indicates that nobody is MAASUM or sinless.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Shias believe that the one who frowned at Ibn Umm Makhtum, the blind man was Uthman and not the prophet.
There are instances in quran of nazul of surahs for different personalities like in many surahs the mention is towards Ali. Abu Bakar has also been mentioned so was Shaitan. Therefore nothing is wrong if it was directed towards Uthman in this particular surah and not towards the prophet.
There are instances in quran of nazul of surahs for different personalities like in many surahs the mention is towards Ali. Abu Bakar has also been mentioned so was Shaitan. Therefore nothing is wrong if it was directed towards Uthman in this particular surah and not towards the prophet.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
posted 07-23-2002 09:50 PM
________________________________________
I wrote to Jonah Blank a few years ago after he wrote an article in an American Magazine (US and the World!!)about the Bohras.
Apparently he had secured his Ph.d doing a thesis on the Bohras. He had gone to Bombay where the Kothar had aided and fetted him (at Saifee Mahal, I suppose)to write the very subjective thesis after being fed with all the slanted and self-serving stuff about the Bohras. He reckoned in his article that the Bohras were the most modern sect in Islam. (what?? - with all those fundamental practices of Saayo, Topi, Dadhi and Rida, extortions, misappropriation and appropriation of Community trust funds and
properties, FGM, shunning,poor josh maatam etc.etc.etc)
When I asked him about the Bohras following that barbaric and illegal Female Genital Mutilation (FGM)practice, he responded that he had discussed the practice with HH and HH denied that the practice existed in the Community.
I responded that HH was using another practice called "Taquiyah" ato conceal the truth, Mr. Blank was not sure !!
I think he also indicated that he had either met or heard of Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer and was aware of this Progressive Website when I challenged him about his objectivity being adulterated by the Kothar.
Now that Mr. Blank is working in Washington for the US Govt (US State Dept - Foreign Affairs Committee!!), I am sure the Kothar is and will exploit him fully to have an access to the US Government officials and politicians.
Isn't what they are doing in India now? Invitations to visit the Saifee Mahal to the corrupt the RSS and BJP fascists during Idd and Milaad of HH - in addition to spending the ill-gotten gains to bribe these officials and politicians.
posted 08-02-2002 04:09 PM
________________________________________
Here's the correspondence I referred to in my post of July 23, 2002:
*******************************************
Thanks for your message, and for the interesting information. As you rightly note, taqiya is a longstanding practice for Bohras (as for all Shia groups), and it is one of the main reasons that as an outsider I can make no claim to having authoritative truth.
I have not been able to verify the existence of a dawat ban on FGM:
some dawat sources have told me the practice is banned, but others have said it is not. All of my sources agree that any extreme form of genital cutting is forbidden, by hadith rather than (or in addition to) direct pronouncement of Syedna. Those who say the practice is not banned say the only permissible form is a symbolic nick rather than actual excision.
Of all the difficult issues an anthropologist has to face during
fieldwork, genital cutting is one of the most difficult. As a male
researcher, I am even less qualified to make any authoritative judgement: all the information I receive is second, third, and fourth hand. All I can do is repeat what others have told me, both reformist and dawat sources alike.
All best wishes,
Jonah Blank
At 12:53 AM 8/3/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Mr. Blank:
>
>Thanks a lot for your offer. I hope you are successful in your endeavours.
>
>I do not wish to be skeptical or cynical but even if you are successful it will make most of the Bohras skeptical and cynical as well because of the following fact.
>
>There is a Bohra/Shia concept called "Tequiyah" which according to my
>limited knowledge of theology is a principle which allows a leader or
>his disciple to lie, perjure, cheat, steal, exaggerate or hide when in
>his opinion his faith is threatened by a non-believer of the faith -
>e.g. a Kaafir or Muddai (Reformist)
>
>So to save themselves from a public relations crisis or disaster or
>humiliations by journalists or women's organizations, the Dawat or His
>Holiness may give you this document in fact but may direct the flock
>otherwise through their world-wide network of Amils. In the parlance of an African adage: "an elephant has two sets of teeth. One set to chew and the other set (the tusks) to show off!!
>
>This is personal experience. For example, a few years ago at the Nasser Mosque in Cairo, Egypt, His Holiness and some of us Bohras
>prayed under an Egyptian Imam from Al Azhar. His Holiness instructed us to pray under the Imam under Tequiyah. but when we go back to our
>Hotels, to make up or "re-pray" as presumably the prayers under the
>non-bohri Imam were not :Jaeez" or valid.
>
>Another example, during prayer times at Haj time in Mecca, Bohras are
>directed from NOT praying under a non-Bohra Imam, at either the
>Prophet's Mosque or in the KAABA but instead offer their prayers at the
>Bohra Musafirkhana either under the Bohra Imam or by themselves.
>Poor Bohras, they come all the way from their home countries to Mecca
>and they are not allowed to offer their prayers in the holiest Islamic
>Shrines.
>
>Because the Bohras follow the Misri Lunar Calendar, they invariably
>perform their Haj a day earlier. This means they can't and don't
>complete one of the the mandatory rituals of a valid HAJ "Safa/Marwa" by themselves or in full view of other non-bohra millions of Muslims. The argument the priest give the gullible Bohras is that as soon as they view the KAABA with their naked eyes, their HAJ is complete. The priests also say that if they see His Holiness in person, this is equivalent to performing HAJ.
>
>In the meantime I await the documentation of the ban by His Holiness of the Female Genital Mutilation. This will be a very noble and heartfelt service by you to the thousands of oppressed and frightened Bohri young girls who have yet to go through this inhuman, barbaric and criminal torture.
>
>Thanks
>
>>
>>From: Jonah Blank
>>Subject: Re: Your Article on the Muslim Mainstream et al in July 20
>> News & World Report
>>
>> >> Thank you for your message. I'll ask a dawat source if he has documentation for the ban.
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Jonah Blank
>>
>>
>>At 11:15 AM 7/31/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>>Dear Mr. Jonah Blank:
>>>
>>>Thanks for your prompt response including the clarifications etc.
>>>
>>>The only hard evidence of female genital mutilation is my personal
>>>knowledge of the immediate family members - i.e. nieces, daughters of cousins and friends having been through this barbaric tradition. As
>the practice is illegal in our country, some of the little girls were
>taken to UK to get this done atleast seven years ago under a close
>supervision or sponsorship of a "Dr Ganiwalla" of UK. A few years ago a lady-doctor belonging to the Royal family also visited Canada from California to perform these illegal acts "on mass". The best evidence will be for the family doctors of the young bohra girls to compel them to report of these unlawful acts (having already been committed) to the proper authorities. I suppose this requires statutory legislation through the aegis of the UN or UNESCO or some worldwide women or children's organization.
>>>
>>>If the dawat has banned this practice, then it is news to me. If you
>do have this in some form of evidentiary documents, I shall be pleased to obtain this from you please. Perhaps you could also endeavour to use
>>>your journalistic influence to ask the dawate hadiya - including His
>>>Holiness himself, to proclaim a verbal as well as documentary
>directive to their worldwide community of this change of cruel policy or the denial of the fatwa in the first place.
>>>
>>>Thanks again and have a very good week end.
>>>
>>>>From jblank@usnews.com Thu Jul 30 17:16:45 1998
>>>>
>>>>From: Jonah Blank
>>>>Subject: Re: Your Article on the Muslim Mainstream et al in July 20
>>>> News & World Report
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thank you for your message, and link to the Webpage. I have
>>>interviewed a number of reformist Bohras, both in this country and in India, and if I have occasion to write longer pieces on the community I hope to include discussion of the disagreement between the dawat and its opponents. I have read all of the major works of Asghar Ali Engineer, and have spoken with him at length.
Do you have any evidence for the charge of female genital mutilation?
>I have heard rumors of it, but only from individuals (such as Dr. Engineer) who are open adversaries of the dawat. The practice is officially banned by the dawat, and has been for some time. If you have hard evidence that such a ban is not being enforced I would be interested to see it.
>>>>
>>>>On the issue of "matriarchy," I should point out that the full quote was significantly more nuanced prior to editing: my original segment was several paragraphs long, and the editors chopped it down to a single sentence.
>>>I was not pleased with the cut-- nor were members of the orthodox Bohra community. The point was not to argue that Bohra women are more powerful than Bohra men, but to note that Bohra women (both orthodox and reformist alike) tend to have higher educational levels and higher social standing than the women of many other Muslim communities. That, I think, is something in which Bohras of all camps can take pride.
>>>>
>>>>All best wishes,
>>>>
>>>>Jonah Blank
>>>>
>>>>At 05:47 PM 7/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>>>>Please refer to the following Webpage for your education on the
>>>>>oppression of the minority Bohra reformists by the majority
>>>>>fundamentalist Dawoodi Bohra Community. You may be tempted to write a more objective article on the Dawoodi Bohras after studying all the contents of the webpage.
>>>>>
>>>>>By the way, speaking of the "matriachy" in the community, did you
>know that the Dawoodi Bohra Community (fundamentalists)is the only Asian Muslim Community to enforce and practice female genital mutilation?
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com
>>>>>
________________________________________
I wrote to Jonah Blank a few years ago after he wrote an article in an American Magazine (US and the World!!)about the Bohras.
Apparently he had secured his Ph.d doing a thesis on the Bohras. He had gone to Bombay where the Kothar had aided and fetted him (at Saifee Mahal, I suppose)to write the very subjective thesis after being fed with all the slanted and self-serving stuff about the Bohras. He reckoned in his article that the Bohras were the most modern sect in Islam. (what?? - with all those fundamental practices of Saayo, Topi, Dadhi and Rida, extortions, misappropriation and appropriation of Community trust funds and
properties, FGM, shunning,poor josh maatam etc.etc.etc)
When I asked him about the Bohras following that barbaric and illegal Female Genital Mutilation (FGM)practice, he responded that he had discussed the practice with HH and HH denied that the practice existed in the Community.
I responded that HH was using another practice called "Taquiyah" ato conceal the truth, Mr. Blank was not sure !!
I think he also indicated that he had either met or heard of Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer and was aware of this Progressive Website when I challenged him about his objectivity being adulterated by the Kothar.
Now that Mr. Blank is working in Washington for the US Govt (US State Dept - Foreign Affairs Committee!!), I am sure the Kothar is and will exploit him fully to have an access to the US Government officials and politicians.
Isn't what they are doing in India now? Invitations to visit the Saifee Mahal to the corrupt the RSS and BJP fascists during Idd and Milaad of HH - in addition to spending the ill-gotten gains to bribe these officials and politicians.
posted 08-02-2002 04:09 PM
________________________________________
Here's the correspondence I referred to in my post of July 23, 2002:
*******************************************
Thanks for your message, and for the interesting information. As you rightly note, taqiya is a longstanding practice for Bohras (as for all Shia groups), and it is one of the main reasons that as an outsider I can make no claim to having authoritative truth.
I have not been able to verify the existence of a dawat ban on FGM:
some dawat sources have told me the practice is banned, but others have said it is not. All of my sources agree that any extreme form of genital cutting is forbidden, by hadith rather than (or in addition to) direct pronouncement of Syedna. Those who say the practice is not banned say the only permissible form is a symbolic nick rather than actual excision.
Of all the difficult issues an anthropologist has to face during
fieldwork, genital cutting is one of the most difficult. As a male
researcher, I am even less qualified to make any authoritative judgement: all the information I receive is second, third, and fourth hand. All I can do is repeat what others have told me, both reformist and dawat sources alike.
All best wishes,
Jonah Blank
At 12:53 AM 8/3/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Mr. Blank:
>
>Thanks a lot for your offer. I hope you are successful in your endeavours.
>
>I do not wish to be skeptical or cynical but even if you are successful it will make most of the Bohras skeptical and cynical as well because of the following fact.
>
>There is a Bohra/Shia concept called "Tequiyah" which according to my
>limited knowledge of theology is a principle which allows a leader or
>his disciple to lie, perjure, cheat, steal, exaggerate or hide when in
>his opinion his faith is threatened by a non-believer of the faith -
>e.g. a Kaafir or Muddai (Reformist)
>
>So to save themselves from a public relations crisis or disaster or
>humiliations by journalists or women's organizations, the Dawat or His
>Holiness may give you this document in fact but may direct the flock
>otherwise through their world-wide network of Amils. In the parlance of an African adage: "an elephant has two sets of teeth. One set to chew and the other set (the tusks) to show off!!
>
>This is personal experience. For example, a few years ago at the Nasser Mosque in Cairo, Egypt, His Holiness and some of us Bohras
>prayed under an Egyptian Imam from Al Azhar. His Holiness instructed us to pray under the Imam under Tequiyah. but when we go back to our
>Hotels, to make up or "re-pray" as presumably the prayers under the
>non-bohri Imam were not :Jaeez" or valid.
>
>Another example, during prayer times at Haj time in Mecca, Bohras are
>directed from NOT praying under a non-Bohra Imam, at either the
>Prophet's Mosque or in the KAABA but instead offer their prayers at the
>Bohra Musafirkhana either under the Bohra Imam or by themselves.
>Poor Bohras, they come all the way from their home countries to Mecca
>and they are not allowed to offer their prayers in the holiest Islamic
>Shrines.
>
>Because the Bohras follow the Misri Lunar Calendar, they invariably
>perform their Haj a day earlier. This means they can't and don't
>complete one of the the mandatory rituals of a valid HAJ "Safa/Marwa" by themselves or in full view of other non-bohra millions of Muslims. The argument the priest give the gullible Bohras is that as soon as they view the KAABA with their naked eyes, their HAJ is complete. The priests also say that if they see His Holiness in person, this is equivalent to performing HAJ.
>
>In the meantime I await the documentation of the ban by His Holiness of the Female Genital Mutilation. This will be a very noble and heartfelt service by you to the thousands of oppressed and frightened Bohri young girls who have yet to go through this inhuman, barbaric and criminal torture.
>
>Thanks
>
>>
>>From: Jonah Blank
>>Subject: Re: Your Article on the Muslim Mainstream et al in July 20
>> News & World Report
>>
>> >> Thank you for your message. I'll ask a dawat source if he has documentation for the ban.
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Jonah Blank
>>
>>
>>At 11:15 AM 7/31/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>>Dear Mr. Jonah Blank:
>>>
>>>Thanks for your prompt response including the clarifications etc.
>>>
>>>The only hard evidence of female genital mutilation is my personal
>>>knowledge of the immediate family members - i.e. nieces, daughters of cousins and friends having been through this barbaric tradition. As
>the practice is illegal in our country, some of the little girls were
>taken to UK to get this done atleast seven years ago under a close
>supervision or sponsorship of a "Dr Ganiwalla" of UK. A few years ago a lady-doctor belonging to the Royal family also visited Canada from California to perform these illegal acts "on mass". The best evidence will be for the family doctors of the young bohra girls to compel them to report of these unlawful acts (having already been committed) to the proper authorities. I suppose this requires statutory legislation through the aegis of the UN or UNESCO or some worldwide women or children's organization.
>>>
>>>If the dawat has banned this practice, then it is news to me. If you
>do have this in some form of evidentiary documents, I shall be pleased to obtain this from you please. Perhaps you could also endeavour to use
>>>your journalistic influence to ask the dawate hadiya - including His
>>>Holiness himself, to proclaim a verbal as well as documentary
>directive to their worldwide community of this change of cruel policy or the denial of the fatwa in the first place.
>>>
>>>Thanks again and have a very good week end.
>>>
>>>>From jblank@usnews.com Thu Jul 30 17:16:45 1998
>>>>
>>>>From: Jonah Blank
>>>>Subject: Re: Your Article on the Muslim Mainstream et al in July 20
>>>> News & World Report
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thank you for your message, and link to the Webpage. I have
>>>interviewed a number of reformist Bohras, both in this country and in India, and if I have occasion to write longer pieces on the community I hope to include discussion of the disagreement between the dawat and its opponents. I have read all of the major works of Asghar Ali Engineer, and have spoken with him at length.
Do you have any evidence for the charge of female genital mutilation?
>I have heard rumors of it, but only from individuals (such as Dr. Engineer) who are open adversaries of the dawat. The practice is officially banned by the dawat, and has been for some time. If you have hard evidence that such a ban is not being enforced I would be interested to see it.
>>>>
>>>>On the issue of "matriarchy," I should point out that the full quote was significantly more nuanced prior to editing: my original segment was several paragraphs long, and the editors chopped it down to a single sentence.
>>>I was not pleased with the cut-- nor were members of the orthodox Bohra community. The point was not to argue that Bohra women are more powerful than Bohra men, but to note that Bohra women (both orthodox and reformist alike) tend to have higher educational levels and higher social standing than the women of many other Muslim communities. That, I think, is something in which Bohras of all camps can take pride.
>>>>
>>>>All best wishes,
>>>>
>>>>Jonah Blank
>>>>
>>>>At 05:47 PM 7/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>>>>Please refer to the following Webpage for your education on the
>>>>>oppression of the minority Bohra reformists by the majority
>>>>>fundamentalist Dawoodi Bohra Community. You may be tempted to write a more objective article on the Dawoodi Bohras after studying all the contents of the webpage.
>>>>>
>>>>>By the way, speaking of the "matriachy" in the community, did you
>know that the Dawoodi Bohra Community (fundamentalists)is the only Asian Muslim Community to enforce and practice female genital mutilation?
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com
>>>>>
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
huh intresting
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Chapter One - continues…….
Let me make it clear that what I am presenting here are the extracts from Jonah Blank’s book “Mullahs on the Mainframe” to make things simpler for common readers. These does not reflect in any way my opinion.
Further Jonah Blank says:-
Initially, various Shia groups defined the Ahl-al-bayt in fairly unrestricted terms – the Prophet’s family from which Imam could emerge. They considered the entire Hashemite clan i.e. descendants of Mohammad, descendants of his uncle Abi Talib and descendants of al-Abbas as Ahl-al-bayt.
Again early Shias considered the descendants of Ali from Fatima as well as ai-Haniyya as Ahl-al-bayt.
During Abbasid rule the Hashemite dynasty limited Ahl-al-bayt to descendants of Ali and Fatima through Husain.
Zaidis who rebelled against Umayyads considered Imam not being Infallible and Imamat not hereditary nor dependent on Nass. According to them any descendants of Husain can claim Imamat by launching a righteous rebellion.
During Abbasid rule Imam Baqir and his son Imam Jafar al-Sadiq adopted a policy of quitting from politics. Faced with the unfavourable political situation of his time, it was Imam Jafar al-Sadiq who created the concept of Nass as the mark of Imam’s legitimacy, ending chaos of various warring contenders. He even proclaimed that “Whoever dies without having acknowledged the True Imam of his time dies as a kafir (unbeliever).” Imam Jafar succeeded in wining the recognition of this belief among all Shia faction.
The reason was that Imam Jafar al-Sadiq had made his Nass in public declaring his elder son Ismail as next Imam. After this declaration Ismail died 10 years before Imam Jafar. This created some crisis for Shias of his time casting doubts about Imam’s decision and laid the seed of bitter struggle for succession. Three of his surviving sons claimed Imamat. Musa Kazim emerged as next consensus candidate backed by the majority of Shias.
However, a smaller group determined to make Ismail’s son Mohammed the next Imam insisted that the Nass was Irrevocable and Imam Jafar is Infallible in his choice of successor. This incident brought forward the doctrine of Imam like prophet, being Infallible.
Let me make it clear that what I am presenting here are the extracts from Jonah Blank’s book “Mullahs on the Mainframe” to make things simpler for common readers. These does not reflect in any way my opinion.
Further Jonah Blank says:-
Initially, various Shia groups defined the Ahl-al-bayt in fairly unrestricted terms – the Prophet’s family from which Imam could emerge. They considered the entire Hashemite clan i.e. descendants of Mohammad, descendants of his uncle Abi Talib and descendants of al-Abbas as Ahl-al-bayt.
Again early Shias considered the descendants of Ali from Fatima as well as ai-Haniyya as Ahl-al-bayt.
During Abbasid rule the Hashemite dynasty limited Ahl-al-bayt to descendants of Ali and Fatima through Husain.
Zaidis who rebelled against Umayyads considered Imam not being Infallible and Imamat not hereditary nor dependent on Nass. According to them any descendants of Husain can claim Imamat by launching a righteous rebellion.
During Abbasid rule Imam Baqir and his son Imam Jafar al-Sadiq adopted a policy of quitting from politics. Faced with the unfavourable political situation of his time, it was Imam Jafar al-Sadiq who created the concept of Nass as the mark of Imam’s legitimacy, ending chaos of various warring contenders. He even proclaimed that “Whoever dies without having acknowledged the True Imam of his time dies as a kafir (unbeliever).” Imam Jafar succeeded in wining the recognition of this belief among all Shia faction.
The reason was that Imam Jafar al-Sadiq had made his Nass in public declaring his elder son Ismail as next Imam. After this declaration Ismail died 10 years before Imam Jafar. This created some crisis for Shias of his time casting doubts about Imam’s decision and laid the seed of bitter struggle for succession. Three of his surviving sons claimed Imamat. Musa Kazim emerged as next consensus candidate backed by the majority of Shias.
However, a smaller group determined to make Ismail’s son Mohammed the next Imam insisted that the Nass was Irrevocable and Imam Jafar is Infallible in his choice of successor. This incident brought forward the doctrine of Imam like prophet, being Infallible.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
[According to Dr. Asgar Ali Engineer: The doctrine of “ismah’ (infallibility) applies only to Prophet in Sunni Islam and to Prophet, his wasi and imams in Shia Islam.
What is the implication of the doctrine of Infallibility? Does it apply both in religious and secular matters? It is ambiguous. The soueces are not very clear on this.
Only in Sunni source Sahih Bukhari we find a hadith that Prophet advised some people in Medina to plant the date-trees in a particular way. But when the date fruit reduced the Prothet had said “natum a’alamuna bi umuri dunyakum”. In worldly matter you know better.
So can an Imam be expert and hence infallible in all worldly matters such as solar physics, astro-physic, practical physic or diseases like Cancer or Aids?
Yet there is one more problem. Shia sect like Ithna Asharis and Ismailis exist today in India and Zaidis in Yemen. For Nizari Ismailis the Imam (Agakhan) still exists. For Ithna Asharis and Mustalian Ismailis their different Imam is in seclusion. Each sect believes that their Imam is Infallible. That means at a time there are many infallible persons. For one sect a person is infallible where as for other sect he is a pretender and usurper. It is a well established doctrine of Fatimids that at a time there will be only one imam and hence just one infallible person.
So whatever the political situation responsible for the concept of legitimacy of Imam by Nass and infallibility of Imam since these doctrines have become part of our faith they should understood properly and they should be taken in broad sense of guidance based on true religious values even in secular matters. Imam is not expected to be competent enough say in manufacturing a technical device or a nuclear bomb. But based on human values he can advise whether to manufacture them or not. For this Quran has laid down certain fundamental values like justice, equality, compassion, brotherhood, benevolence etc.- Asgar Ali Engineer]
What is the implication of the doctrine of Infallibility? Does it apply both in religious and secular matters? It is ambiguous. The soueces are not very clear on this.
Only in Sunni source Sahih Bukhari we find a hadith that Prophet advised some people in Medina to plant the date-trees in a particular way. But when the date fruit reduced the Prothet had said “natum a’alamuna bi umuri dunyakum”. In worldly matter you know better.
So can an Imam be expert and hence infallible in all worldly matters such as solar physics, astro-physic, practical physic or diseases like Cancer or Aids?
Yet there is one more problem. Shia sect like Ithna Asharis and Ismailis exist today in India and Zaidis in Yemen. For Nizari Ismailis the Imam (Agakhan) still exists. For Ithna Asharis and Mustalian Ismailis their different Imam is in seclusion. Each sect believes that their Imam is Infallible. That means at a time there are many infallible persons. For one sect a person is infallible where as for other sect he is a pretender and usurper. It is a well established doctrine of Fatimids that at a time there will be only one imam and hence just one infallible person.
So whatever the political situation responsible for the concept of legitimacy of Imam by Nass and infallibility of Imam since these doctrines have become part of our faith they should understood properly and they should be taken in broad sense of guidance based on true religious values even in secular matters. Imam is not expected to be competent enough say in manufacturing a technical device or a nuclear bomb. But based on human values he can advise whether to manufacture them or not. For this Quran has laid down certain fundamental values like justice, equality, compassion, brotherhood, benevolence etc.- Asgar Ali Engineer]
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Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
If I remember Qiyam, "Nass" was started by Rasul SAW.it was Imam Jafar al-Sadiq who created the concept of Nass as the mark of Imam’s legitimacy, ending chaos of various warring contenders. He even proclaimed that “Whoever dies without having acknowledged the True Imam of his time dies as a kafir (unbeliever).” Imam Jafar succeeded in wining the recognition of this belief among all Shia faction.
“Whoever dies without having acknowledged the True Imam of his time dies as a kafir (unbeliever).”
Wow! that is similar to statements attributed to JC, making him sole pranchise holder.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
The actual quote is:“Whoever dies without having acknowledged the True Imam of his time dies as a kafir (unbeliever).”
"Whoever dies without knowing the Imam of the age (Imam-uz-zamaan) dies as if he has died in the age of Jahiliya (Ignorance, or ignorance of Islam)."
The quote has been variously attributed to Prophet, Ali, Muhammad al-Baqir and Jaafar al-Sadiq.
If you can prove that it came from Prophet, then MF will shut up.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
“Whoever dies without having acknowledged the True Imam of his time dies as a kafir (unbeliever).”
This is how quoted by Jonah Blank in his book on page no. 19 last para, working under the guidance of Bohra clergy.
This is how quoted by Jonah Blank in his book on page no. 19 last para, working under the guidance of Bohra clergy.
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Muslim First
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Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Yes I will.If you can prove that it came from Prophet, then MF will shut up.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Insafbhai,
I believe the quote I have posted is correct. I have been aware of it for a long time. Jonah Blank is incorrect. It would be out of character for an Imam to call a Muslim kafir.
I believe the quote I have posted is correct. I have been aware of it for a long time. Jonah Blank is incorrect. It would be out of character for an Imam to call a Muslim kafir.
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Muslim First
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Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
"ignorance of Islam" = Does not know Islam = Nice way to say Kafir"Whoever dies without knowing the Imam of the age (Imam-uz-zamaan) dies as if he has died in the age of Jahiliya (Ignorance, or ignorance of Islam)."
Wasalaam
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
It could of course mean "unaware of Islam". "Unaware" is not as loaded a term as "Ignorant"."ignorance of Islam" = Does not know Islam = Nice way to say Kafir
Since you are soooo knowledgeable about Islam, you must know that "Jahiliya" refers to the period before advent of Islam.
Also, since you are so vehemently commenting on this statement, do you think it is true?
I would interpret the statement as saying that if you did not know the Imam, you would die as if you had never heard of Islam.
Would you consider pre-Islamic peoples kafirs or simply unaware of Islam? Nowadays, Islam is a vast subject and most people will be unaware of some aspects of it. I would call them ignorant, not kafir.
By the way, ("ignorance or ignorant of Islam") was my addition.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
I meant "Do you think that the statement is authentic"?
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Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
.
Only person claiming to be Imam on this earth is Aga Khan. I would rather not know him as Imam. Otherwise Your's and twelver's Imam is not in existance (Only in fairy tale).
There is no differences between Dais, Mullas, Ayatullas, Shaikhs. They just have chosen religion as profession. Some are good and others are bad.
Wasalaam
.
How would you know Imam if he does not exist?I would interpret the statement as saying that if you did not know the Imam, you would die as if you had never heard of Islam.
Only person claiming to be Imam on this earth is Aga Khan. I would rather not know him as Imam. Otherwise Your's and twelver's Imam is not in existance (Only in fairy tale).
There is no differences between Dais, Mullas, Ayatullas, Shaikhs. They just have chosen religion as profession. Some are good and others are bad.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Just like you know God. If you believe he exists, then you will have to prove it to me.How would you know Imam if he does not exist?
Or you can just quote an authority like Prophet, Quran etc. If you give yourself a right to quote an authority, then you should also respect other people's right to quote their authorities.
If Aga Khan claims to be Imam, then you should respect that. If Dai claims Imam exists, then you should respect that.
On the other hand, I invite you to reject as bogus all claims based on authority. Rely only on your experience. (I am considering only religious/spiritual experiences).
If you have experienced a pink elephant, I will respect that. You will have to show me a way of experiencing a pink elephant for myself if you are going to convince me.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Difference between hidden God and hidden Imam;
Imam takes birth, lives for few years and then disappears. Imam's existence in seclusion has remained in mystery and confusion. Hence Imam is a human being and to err is humane. Still Imam is believed to be infallible.
Imam takes birth, lives for few years and then disappears. Imam's existence in seclusion has remained in mystery and confusion. Hence Imam is a human being and to err is humane. Still Imam is believed to be infallible.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
porus,
Now for a disbeliever like yourself there is no difference in the authority of the quran and the sunnah as against the authority of the Dai or Aga Khan, and I respect that. But you should not expect a believer to have the same thought process as that of a disbeliever.
The Dai and Aga Khan both claim to get their authority from the quran and that is where the problem lies. If the Dai were to say that he believed in quran and that according to the quran, hanuman swallowed the sun, it would be a bit of a problem for me to respect that without evidence other than some taawil.
Now it is every easy for me to give evidence that God exists. For eg, the earth, the sun, the solar system, the galaxy, the universe, the plants, the animals, the human being, they all present evidence of the creator. However, this evidence is not sufficient for you to believe in him. Although, I am sure you "respect" that I do.
Similarly, there is enough evidence for the frogs and the pigs to believe in the authority of the dai, but that evidence is not enough for me to do the same. Same is the case with the followers of Aga Khan.
Now, since the Dai and the Aga Khan claim their authority from the quran, it is very easy for me to prove that they are liars and that the quran wouldn't give authority to people like these. However it is nearly impossible for you to prove that God does not exist. And I do expect you to respect that.
Now, previously when I said that I had experienced God, you claimed that it was impossible for me to experience God. That wasn't the "respect" that I was expecting.
I am not sure what you mean by "you should respect that.", but if an authority goes against the quran and the sunnah of the prophet then for a muslim, there is no need to "respect" that authority.If Aga Khan claims to be Imam, then you should respect that. If Dai claims Imam exists, then you should respect that.
Now for a disbeliever like yourself there is no difference in the authority of the quran and the sunnah as against the authority of the Dai or Aga Khan, and I respect that. But you should not expect a believer to have the same thought process as that of a disbeliever.
The Dai and Aga Khan both claim to get their authority from the quran and that is where the problem lies. If the Dai were to say that he believed in quran and that according to the quran, hanuman swallowed the sun, it would be a bit of a problem for me to respect that without evidence other than some taawil.
Now it is every easy for me to give evidence that God exists. For eg, the earth, the sun, the solar system, the galaxy, the universe, the plants, the animals, the human being, they all present evidence of the creator. However, this evidence is not sufficient for you to believe in him. Although, I am sure you "respect" that I do.
Similarly, there is enough evidence for the frogs and the pigs to believe in the authority of the dai, but that evidence is not enough for me to do the same. Same is the case with the followers of Aga Khan.
Now, since the Dai and the Aga Khan claim their authority from the quran, it is very easy for me to prove that they are liars and that the quran wouldn't give authority to people like these. However it is nearly impossible for you to prove that God does not exist. And I do expect you to respect that.
Now, previously when I said that I had experienced God, you claimed that it was impossible for me to experience God. That wasn't the "respect" that I was expecting.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Actually, they both claim authority from God and they are both stuck in the same delusion as yours.The Dai and Aga Khan both claim to get their authority from the quran and that is where the problem lies.
God cannot be experienced because humans can only experience creations. God is not a creation. On the other hand you can 'know' God in so far as you believe what others tell you about IT. What others tell you about IT is how you create God of your imagination.
If all that exists is evidence for existence of God, then OK, but then how can you derive God's properties from all that exists except by giving IT all a human subjective interpretation? eg Prove from all that exists that God is compassionate and merciful.
I am not going to add any further to this deja vu of tangential dscussion as the thread is for Insaaf to post on "Mullahs on Mainframe".
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
porus,
So much for "you should respect that."!!Actually, they both claim authority from God and they are both stuck in the same delusion as yours.
Now that we have hypothetically agreed that God exists, read the quran for evidence that God is compassionate and merciful, or look at your own life. If he hadn't been, you'd be in hell already.Prove from all that exists that God is compassionate and merciful.
Is that a scientific explanation? If so, you might need to prove it. Otherwise it is simply a figment of your imagination. And I respect that.God cannot be experienced because humans can only experience creations.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
According to the quranGod cannot be experienced because humans can only experience creations.
Surah Ta Ha
وَهَلْ أَتَاكَ حَدِيثُ مُوسَى
10 إِذْ رَأَى نَارًا فَقَالَ لِأَهْلِهِ امْكُثُوا إِنِّي آنَسْتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّي آتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِقَبَسٍ أَوْ أَجِدُ عَلَى النَّارِ هُدًى
11 فَلَمَّا أَتَاهَا نُودِيَ يَا مُوسَى
12 إِنِّي أَنَا رَبُّكَ فَاخْلَعْ نَعْلَيْكَ إِنَّكَ بِالْوَادِي الْمُقَدَّسِ طُوًى
13 وَأَنَا اخْتَرْتُكَ فَاسْتَمِعْ لِمَا يُوحَى
14 إِنَّنِي أَنَا اللَّهُ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا أَنَا فَاعْبُدْنِي وَأَقِمِ الصَّلَاةَ لِذِكْرِي
God spoke to Moses, ergo Moses experienced God.
The quran was revealed to the prophet Muhammed by God over a period of 23 years ergo he experienced God. Of course you might say that he only experienced Gibrael, but I will dismiss that as semantics. He also experienced God during the meraj.
Similarly, all prophet's experienced God in one way or another.
So according to the quran, it is possible to "experience" God.
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Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
.
AS
Br. Anjmi have stopped posting interpreted meaning of Qur'an. Here is Ta-Ha 10:14. Interpreted meaning is by Malik.
10 When he saw a fire, he said to his family: "Stop: I saw a fire. I may be able to bring some fire or find someone beside the fire to guide us towards the right direction."
11 When he reached there, he was called: "O Musa!
12 In fact, I am your Rabb! Take off your shoes,you are in the sacred
13 I have chosen you, so listen to what I am about to reveal.
14 It is Me, Allah; there is none worthy of worship except Me, so worship Me and establish Salah for My remembrance.
Caution: This is not actual Translation but meaning as understood by Malek.
Wasalaam
.
AS
Br. Anjmi have stopped posting interpreted meaning of Qur'an. Here is Ta-Ha 10:14. Interpreted meaning is by Malik.
10 When he saw a fire, he said to his family: "Stop: I saw a fire. I may be able to bring some fire or find someone beside the fire to guide us towards the right direction."
11 When he reached there, he was called: "O Musa!
12 In fact, I am your Rabb! Take off your shoes,you are in the sacred
13 I have chosen you, so listen to what I am about to reveal.
14 It is Me, Allah; there is none worthy of worship except Me, so worship Me and establish Salah for My remembrance.
Caution: This is not actual Translation but meaning as understood by Malek.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
How cute!
God talked directly to Musa the very first time.
He sent an emissary, Jibrail, to talk to Muhammad the very first time.
God showing favoritism to Musa over Muhammad?
Actually, God wanted to talk to Ali, but Jibrail forestalled God by taking his message to Muhammad instead. And then God took back seat while letting his favorite angel to perpetuate the error for another 23 years. That is our Batini belief.
God talked directly to Musa the very first time.
He sent an emissary, Jibrail, to talk to Muhammad the very first time.
God showing favoritism to Musa over Muhammad?
Actually, God wanted to talk to Ali, but Jibrail forestalled God by taking his message to Muhammad instead. And then God took back seat while letting his favorite angel to perpetuate the error for another 23 years. That is our Batini belief.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
porus,
I am glad that you have chosen not to argue the "experiencing" God point and have instead chosen to argue like the pro_pigs and pro_frogs on this board.
I am glad that you have chosen not to argue the "experiencing" God point and have instead chosen to argue like the pro_pigs and pro_frogs on this board.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Nice one. Do the (original)ayats state that God spoke to Moses?Originally posted by anajmi:
God spoke to Moses, ergo Moses experienced God.
I suggest you look at all available translations and then go to an Arabic scholar and get him to confirm if the (original) ayats state that God spoke to Moses.
I mean, it could be a recording of a translation in anajmi's voice that Moses heard! For God, everything is possible.
Happy translation reading!!