banking.....y is it so strictly forbidden!!!!

[makberi]

i had an offer from the treasuries of one of the leading banks of my country....but i had to turn it down cuz my parents dint want me to do smthin which the syedna has forbidden........wat i really wanna know is that does islam really hold such a strong stand against banking and interest.....or was all this jus an attempt by the syedna to sideline the reformists...cuz it all started cuz the reformists started out a bank i think

[profrog]

banking is not forbidden but riba or intrest is forbidden and it says so in quran so unless the progs had a bank 1400 yrs ago you should ask rasullah to answer that

[profrog]

banking is not forbidden but riba or intrest is forbidden and it says so in quran so unless the progs had a bank 1400 yrs ago you should ask rasullah to answer that

[like_minded]

Intrest... 1400 years ago was nothing but exploitation, thats why it was banned.

Now in 2007, without intrest, the economy would collapse, The IMF loans would not come, the banking industry would have to shut shop, throwing millions of bankers out of job and more importantly the overall development of a country would stop.

[like_minded]

Kothar is against "intrest" for their own interest. They do not want bohras to have huge deposits in banks and earn intrest, That would not help their cause of extracting and amassing wealth from the common bohras.

They are also against insurance, because they dont want bohras to feel "secure" in life, And eventually this insecurity drives the gullible sheep towards the spiritual joker.

Kothar has rules and regulations set in this community which helps them accumalate maximum wealth and gain power, and the common bohras end up making fools of themselves.

[JC]

Agreed Like-Minded.

Interest 1400 years ago was exploitation, today it is very much the industry, commerce and business. Today it is sharing benefits and profits of huge organziations via deposits and investments.

Kothar is against all types of Modernization. They just want sheep to continue being sheep. And now Taiseer Un Nikkah - they want kids to get married and produce kids, more sheep!! And sheep will fall into the trap of bring bread to kids sheep hence no time for more education, development or thinking on other issues. During day time, earn and earn and at night times, just f*** - this is a tool to perpetuate power and increase the number of slaves.

[Shahu]

Does Islam Prohibit Interest?

http://www.islam-n-interest.com/dipi.html

UNDERSTANDING "R I B A" (Usury)

http://www.mostmerciful.com/riba.htm

[tahir]

Originally posted by profrog:
banking is not forbidden but riba or intrest is forbidden and it says so in quran so unless the progs had a bank 1400 yrs ago you should ask rasullah to answer that

Did they smooch thighs and collected salaam 1400 years ago?

[JC]

Good reply Tahir. I couldnot stop laughing.

And were there Shaikhs, Bhaisahibs, Amils and Shahzadas 1400 years ago?? Was there concept of obtaining Raza for your child to start eating meat?? Were there STDs 1400 years ago?? (Now here i guess the answer is may be, but poor chaps won't know then). Were there Ridas 1400 years ago (well here also the reply is yes, but not like those of today, where it is Rida Kum, Fashion Ziyada).

And above all was Burhan there 1400 years ago?? The answer is loud and clear YES - you have to look at Burhan these days and you will agree..!!!

[Average Bohra]

Islam has no problems with interest, as you long as you don't call it interest. Just call them "fees" and you will go to heaven.

This topic has been exhausted on this board.

[anajmi]

Actually, it has been made very clear in the quran that people who want to justify interest will classify even "fees" as interest. Not in those specific words, but the message remains the same.

[profrog]

if intrest 1400 yrs ago was exploitation what is it now it is still the same exploitation but your hatred towards moula blinds you and quran has forbiden intrest

[Gulf]

Dear Newbie If you are looking for true answer on true Islamic way...then I must say that you are at wrong place
thank you

Originally posted by makberi:
i had an offer from the treasuries of one of the leading banks of my country....but i had to turn it down cuz my parents dint want me to do smthin which the syedna has forbidden........wat i really wanna know is that does islam really hold such a strong stand against banking and interest.....or was all this jus an attempt by the syedna to sideline the reformists...cuz it all started cuz the reformists started out a bank i think

[porus]

Interesrt free banking:

If you borrow $100 to buy a lawn mower, and agree to repay $105 a year later, that is forbidden because the additional $5 is interest.

If you borrow $100 to buy a lawn mower, and agree to write in contract that you are actually borrowing $105, and return $105 a year later, than that is allowed..

Or you can call the additional $5, a fee, a gift of appreciation, profit, dividend or whatever else except interest. That is allowed.

Islamic God is merciful and this subterfuge is the one that all Islamic banking employs. God knows what is in your heart and you only want to help fellow Muslims, right?

(I will change my mind about Islamic Banking, if they lend me $5000 and I can return $5000 in, say, about 10 nyears time.)

I have to admit though that in my experience, Qarde Hasana, as operated by the Dawoodi Bohras is completely interest-free, and as close to Quran as it is possible to get, ignoring, of course, the price of participation in the community, which most recipients of Qard may willingly pay.

[anajmi]

porus,

A couple of points.

First - I don't think I can trust you on this one. I don't think an Islamic bank actually modifies the principle amount. They might charge you fees as a separate line item but to make you sign a contract which states an amount which is higher than what they actually loan you, is cheating. I am sure you will clarify that in your next post.

Second, if they actually do modify the principle amount, then they probably used one of your quranic translations.

[porus]

I have personal experience of the modification of principal in two cases. In New Delhi (actually, in the city of Old Delhi) and in Cairo. In Cairo, the sum handed to my friend by the 'bank' was less than what was in the contract, which amounts to the same thing. That was an unwritten and unspoken agreement. Both lender and borrower agreed it was allowed under Islam. As you say, they used my translation, even though I have not publisheed one. It is like your experience of God. They must be certain they have read my translation.

I agree it is too brazen for it to be the practise of Muslim Banks in the United States. They employ some of the other subterfuges.

[anajmi]

porus,

As I said in an earlier post, people who want to justify interest, won't fall short of classifying even grocery shopping as dealing in interest. Hence every method that an Islamic bank uses, somehow automatically becomes a "subterfuge" for you.

Since you have read the quran, I am sure you have come across ayahs which require you to put an agreement down in writing even if the amount involved is small. The quran is pretty clear on that. Now, when you talk about banks where they have an unspoken and unwritten rule of any sort, then the bank is not Islamic, it doesn't matter how much you want it to be.

Here is the ayah - 2:282

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا تَدَايَنتُم بِدَيْنٍ إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى فَاكْتُبُوهُ وَلْيَكْتُب بَّيْنَكُمْ كَاتِبٌ بِالْعَدْلِ وَلاَ يَأْبَ كَاتِبٌ أَنْ يَكْتُبَ كَمَا عَلَّمَهُ اللّهُ فَلْيَكْتُبْ وَلْيُمْلِلِ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ وَلْيَتَّقِ اللّهَ رَبَّهُ وَلاَ يَبْخَسْ مِنْهُ شَيْئًا فَإن كَانَ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ سَفِيهًا أَوْ ضَعِيفًا أَوْ لاَ يَسْتَطِيعُ أَن يُمِلَّ هُوَ فَلْيُمْلِلْ وَلِيُّهُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ شَهِيدَيْنِ من رِّجَالِكُمْ فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ مِمَّن تَرْضَوْنَ مِنَ الشُّهَدَاء أَن تَضِلَّ إْحْدَاهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ إِحْدَاهُمَا الأُخْرَى وَلاَ يَأْبَ الشُّهَدَاء إِذَا مَا دُعُواْ وَلاَ تَسْأَمُوْاْ أَن تَكْتُبُوْهُ صَغِيرًا أَو كَبِيرًا إِلَى أَجَلِهِ ذَلِكُمْ أَقْسَطُ عِندَ اللّهِ وَأَقْومُ لِلشَّهَادَةِ وَأَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَرْتَابُواْ إِلاَّ أَن تَكُونَ تِجَارَةً حَاضِرَةً تُدِيرُونَهَا بَيْنَكُمْ فَلَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ جُنَاحٌ أَلاَّ تَكْتُبُوهَا وَأَشْهِدُوْاْ إِذَا تَبَايَعْتُمْ وَلاَ يُضَآرَّ كَاتِبٌ وَلاَ شَهِيدٌ وَإِن تَفْعَلُواْ فَإِنَّهُ فُسُوقٌ بِكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

[porus]

anajmi,

I have said that I will not discuss Quran with you.

I have given before the criterion for interest-free loan. $ x borrowed must be repaid with $ x after time t, whatever t and x is. If a processing fee is required, then it should be independent of x or t and should be fixed no matter what x or t is.

Anything else, I understand is unIslamic. You may disagree and I do not wish you to quote Quran at me or tell me that it is only my opinion, or that it is only my understanding. By that criterion, in my experience, only the Bohra Qarze Hasana scheme qualifies.

I did not claim that Muslim 'banks', which engage in subterfuges are Islamic or non-Islamic. They are claiming that they are Islamic.

[humane]

I agree with what porus said in his posts.

Islamic bank functions like this:

Let's suppose you want to buy a car for 15000$, you go to the bank, the bank will sell the car to you instead of the dealer in 16000$. The bank will pay 15000$ to the dealer and earn the profit of 1000$.

But the most important thing is if you delay in making your installment to the bank, the bank doesn't charge interest for that delay and rather behaves islamically and gives you plenty of time to pay your dues to the bank and if you haven't still paid then the matter goes to the court and the court will ask you to pay only and only your dues (without interest) which is not the case with the worldly banks which collect their dues with interest.

So you could say that the islamic banks are legal islamic traders.

[anajmi]

porus,

You said that you will not discuss quran with me. I don't remember saying anything to that effect. Besides what is posted over here by me is not just for you eyes.

Besides, what the banks claim is immaterial. You claim to have understood the quran and based on which have concluded that no one can understand the quran. Go figure.

Now, your criteria for interest free loan is simply your personal opinion. Did I just do what you told me not to do? Processing fee is based upon the cost incurred. If getting you amount x for time t involves more cost than getting you amount x/2 for time t then the processing fee will be higher. Simple economics. Try not to put your own spin on Islam.

[anajmi]

If I go to borrow money from Qarde Hasana will I get it? I guarantee you that I won't. It doesn't matter how badly I need it.

[porus]

anajmi,

My understanding is that it does not materially affect the labor in drawing a contract for $ x or $ 1,000,000x. The fee should be the same, unless there are government imposed penalties for larger amount.

You would not qualify for a Bohra Qarde Hasana because it is for Bohras only.

You can post Yusufali as much and as long as you like. And you can quote my previous messages, my lack of understanding and all. I am simply not interested in your views of my views of Quran. I will however read your Yusufali posts. If you post the Arabic Quran, most may read it with their own understanding of Arabic, which may be rather like yours, nil.

[Average Bohra]

To comply with US Banking laws, Sharia compliant mortgage interest is classified as "rent". The buyer picks the house, the bank buys it and places it in a trust, the buyer makes monthly payments, the principal is applied to the balance in the trust and the surplus is classified as "rent" instead of interest.

What is so ridiculous about this arrangement is that even the IRS classifies this arrangement as a "traditional" mortgage, and the Muslim home buyer gets to reclassify his "rent" payments as "interest" on his tax return to get a tax write off!

Muslim becomes proud home owner, complies with Sharia and goes to heaven.

[anajmi]

porus,

If you post the Arabic Quran, most may read it with their own understanding of Arabic, which may be rather like yours, nil.

And that includes you. We have seen many examples of that.

[anajmi]

You would not qualify for a Bohra Qarde Hasana because it is for Bohras only.

Hence it is not Islamic, it is simply bohraic.

Do you know what Qarde Hasana means according to the quran?

Here are a couple of ayahs.

2:245
مَّن ذَا الَّذِي يُقْرِضُ اللّهَ قَرْضًا حَسَنًا فَيُضَاعِفَهُ لَهُ أَضْعَافًا كَثِيرَةً وَاللّهُ يَقْبِضُ وَيَبْسُطُ وَإِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ

5:12
وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا وَقَالَ اللّهُ إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ لَئِنْ أَقَمْتُمُ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتَيْتُمُ الزَّكَاةَ وَآمَنتُم بِرُسُلِي وَعَزَّرْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَقْرَضْتُمُ اللّهَ قَرْضًا حَسَنًا لَّأُكَفِّرَنَّ عَنكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ وَلَأُدْخِلَنَّكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الأَنْهَارُ فَمَن كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ مِنكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَاءَ السَّبِيلِ

So according to the quran, what the bohras call Qarde Hasana is not Qarde Hasana. It is simply a loan given to those who ask but not without some sort of security.

[anajmi]

Average,

The IRS does that as it doesn't want to create new forms at your expense. Besides, if it were to actually include "rent" as something on which you can claim your own money back, this government probably won't have the money to pay for the illegal wars that they want to wage.

Otherwise, "rent" is actually a better candidate for tax rebates than interest.

[Average Bohra]

Tampon,

You are not qualified to dicuss tax laws with me nor Islamic banking. I must ask however, how does mortgage interest defined as rent pass muster ?

[abcd]

Can any one clarify?:

Consider the time of barter system when all the commodities was exchanged by commodities. At that time also people were exploited as per the demand.

Now consider the money as commodity and instead of buying a car you are buying money and giving profit as the car trader sales car adding his profit. Here where the Islamic law involves?

[anajmi]

Average,

I am confused. Are we passing off interest as rent or rent as interest?

I think you are right, I am not qualified to discuss anything at all with you. Kindly stop wasting your time.

[SBM]

This is for Anjami
When an Aamil cannot answer or debate rationally with you, he will typically say "TAAWIL" and there is no room for debate.
When Ajami cannot put rational debate he starts posting "AYAHS" and Hadiths. So no debating with rational arguments with MORONS whether they are Aamils or Anjamis.