Dawoodi Bohra History after 1840 AD

[hluqmani]

I have opened this new topic to answer a particular question which was posted under another topic which I considered was not the right place.
i think that this topic will give us a suitable platform for discussing many subjects which I have seen posted in various different places in this forum

The question was about Husaina Aai Saheba. To answer this it is sufficient for me to quote a paragraph from the booklet "My experiences and my will" by Syedi Ismailbhai saheb Luqmani who was her elder brother.

quote
I must mention at this stage an incident that occured a few days before the death of my sister. Taher Saifuddin was in love with Fatemabai whose husband died in 1336 Hijri(1918 AD). During 1338 Hijri Taher Saifuddin made up his mind to marry her. Accordingly preparations were made to solemnise the marriage. In the nick of time my elder sister sent a message through her stepson, Fazalbhai Sahib, "Fatimabai happens to be the breast-fed niece of my sister, Husanabai hence this marriage would be illegal and against the Shariah." The ceremony was therefore cancelled. Taher saifuddin married her two months after the death of my sister.
unquote

The above text is an English translation. The original is part of the memoire which was written in Gujarati

[Aqa Moula_Zindabad]

Dawoodi Bohra History after 1840 AD

I m sure u will add a lot more on the subject

[Humsafar]

HLuqmani, I echo Zulfiqar's sentiments in welcoming you to this forum. It's really great to have someone with your background participating here.
Regarding the quote above, could you provide more context. Also, I assume you intend to provide more details about the "history after 1840 AD". Looking forward to it.

[hluqmani]

Thankyou both Zulfiqar and Humsafar
I only recently came to know about this forum and last couple of days have spent some time exploring the jungle.
I must say I am impressed with the depth of knowledge some of you have . It is also quite entertaining.

I am not proposing to post any regular features. I just thought it might be good to have a space like this where any specific points or questions could be brought up for discussion or information.
You guys seem pretty well informed and probably you can answer more of my questions than I yours.

[accountability]

Thankyou sir, It is an honour to have you on this forum. May I request that you give us details regarding the subject you posted above. Yours will be an authentic first hand accounts of the event that took place. Also it will be an eye opener for blind followers of present and previous administration.

[accountability]

Hamsafar/Zulfiqar: If you could translate the book in english and post it here, It may take long and it will be exhaustive. But for the sake of our own emanicipation this book may prove to be the begining of the end. It will be my pleasure to be of any help. I cannot read or write gujrati or hindi. You may do it in instalments, one chapter or some pages at a time. But Please do it.

[SBM]

Dear All
It is too much to ask Br. Luqmani to translate and post it. If enough members on this Board can contribute, we can have an independent service to translate the Gujrati to English. I am sure it is not very expensive in India to find an independent service to translate in English. This way no one can accuse of false translation as well as taking away burden from people who have full time jobs.
I am ready to contribute to a dedicated site on this forum for this cause only. Admin can arrange it thru PayPal or thru credit cards.
Any suggestions............

[Admin]

Al Zulfiqar has a copy of the English translation, and there was an attempt last year by Forum members to transcribe the book page by page but it seems the whole exercise fizzled out. http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=2359

[Al Zulfiqar]

admin,

i had asked you last year and asking you again, can you please provide me a physical address where i can post you the hard copy? then you can upload it here on the archives. I have the entire document, but even after zipped, it is still upwards of 35 mb.

Bro. hussain-ksa had kindly helped scan and zip and uploaded on net, but when hyperlinked here, members complained that it was not clear to read.

[Al Zulfiqar]

admin,

i also have hard copies of 2 more imp. documents:

1. english translation of research article which appeared in al muslimoon, official saudi gazette just after the first exodus of bohras in egypt in 1981, commisioned by egyptian govt and funded by saudi min of islamic affairs. this article describes in detail the nature, the open and secret practices and religious beliefs of the bohra sect, their leadership and their behaviour within and without in the larger islamic ummah.
2. hard copy of article which appeared in the illustrated weekly of india (now defunct) many decades ago, where the shenanigans of the syedna are exposed under title, "running a state within a state," with the photo of syedna on the cover. perhaps you may already have this, but can send you a copy if you need.

i can also get hold of a copy of an urdu poster widely distributed in poona sometime in the 70's and stuck on bohra shops shutters, showing a photo of syedna, just after the word Allah, then followed by Muhammad, followed by the names of panjatan pak. this poster had caused widespread condemnation, scandal and controvery as sunni muslims had got hold of it as well as some reformists and had publicised the kufr and blasphemy behind it, as syedna was shown higher than Rasulallah in status.

i can mail these also to you on a physical address.

[Admin]

Al Zulfiqar,

We'll send you the address to mail the material to. Also, we too have come to acquire a copy of the English manuscript "My Experiences My Will" that you have. We can have this and all the other material transcribed, convert it to PDF and make it available on this website. Any contribution toward the cost would be welcome: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/donations/

[SBM]

Thanks Admin
Donation has been made via Credit card

[jamanpasand]

Can a person of sound mind will write something like this ? This is just insane.



In the presence of Hasanali Gulzar and his family members the spirit made a confession

about administering of poison to the 46th Dai. I signed a sword affidavit about this in

Bombay in 1382 Hijri (12th March 1963) in the court of the Presidency Magistrate. An

extract of the affidavit is as follows:

"Then I asked her (the spirit) about the poisoning of Syedna Mohammad Badrudding and

she replied that it was true. I then asked her as to who were the persons involved in this

crime. In answer to this she gave the following names :

1 Chamanai herself
2 Sukanai, daughter of Chamanai
3 Sheikh Mohammadali Chuba Burhanpuri
4 Mulla Ahmedali Karodi Burhanpuri
5 Mukhlis
6 Mohammedali Hawaichi
7 Isaji Hazuri
8 Miyabhai Lambo
9 Ghulamali Alibhai Khachi
10 Alibhai Kothari
11 Dawoodbhai Hazuri
12 Moosa Kirissan
13 Muzaffar Sidhi

[hluqmani]

The original manuscript was written by my grandfather during the last months of his life. None of us knew at the time that he was writing it. The ms is in Gujarati and was found in his papers after his death. It was incomplete.
It was published in the original language as a booklet entitled " Maroo Wasiyyat namo ane mari jankari " ; author Syedi Ismailji bhaisaheb ibne syedi Luqmanji ; Publisher Salehbhai Taherali Badshah, Secretary Roshan khayal Jamaat, Malegaon

The English translation was made by my father, Ahmed Ismail Luqmani, and was published by him in the UK in 1993 with the help of 1986 DB Reformist trust and particularly FazleHusain Kapasi. This is the booklet entitled "My experiences and my Will"
This is a family document but my father felt that it may be of general interest as it describes the history of the leaders of our community with many intimate details. Most people would get totally lost with all the names and inter-relations of the people mentioned, but for the family members it makes fascinating reading.

ADMIN
I request that when you upload this booklet you do it in its entirety, including the title page and the introduction
Thankyou

[mmv]

As Salam
As per the archive in mumineen.org
it is written that:
Syedna Badruddin conferred nas upon Syedna Najmuddin on the 9th of Moharram during Ashara in Pune in 1254H. The nas was repeated in similar fashion in the waaz of the 9th of Moharram of 1256H in Surat and was also repeated in private to Huduud Fozolaa. The nas upon Syedna Najmuddin was made repeatedly and at length in particular to Miyasaheb Abdulali and Miyasaheb Abdullah bhai. The following morning Syedna Badruddin repeated that detail to Syedna Abdulhusain Husamuddin (RA) adding the glad tiding that the first are first and the next are next.


http://archive.mumineen.org/awliya/duat/mf_dai46.html

so i am confused which is Correct.

[East Africawalla]

My view is whats the point, lets move forward instead of dwelling in the past, I know Zulfikar loves this because it brings him back in the limelight

[hluqmani]

I have a book called Hadiqatut-Tareekh published in 1368 H (1960 AD) written by Miyansaheb AbdutTayab ibne Miyansaheb Haiderali with the permission and blessing of the then Dai Janab Taher Saifuddin Saheb. (I guess he was officially commissioned to write this book). This is a biography of 16 Duuat, 9 descended from the line of Bharmal and 7 from the line of Tarmal. Syedna Mohammad Badruddin (46th Dai) was the last from Bharmal dynasty.
According to this book the 46th Dai, in the 4 years of his office, did very little apart from praising and proclaiming Nass at every possible opportunity on AbdulQadir Najmuddin. No other Dai ever put so much emphasis and repeated his Nass declaration as many times as he did. I don’t know why all these stupid reformists can’t just accept the facts and stop doubting the words of our Aqa Maula.

History is in the eyes of the beholder

[East Africawalla]

I am sure you are not prejudiced, you will will say that your grandfather's book is factual and the other one is fiction

[Humsafar]

hluqmani, rather, history is in the hands of the powerful and always written by the victors. The dead tell no tales, and losers (the people) must swallow the official truth. That said, reformists actually do not - at least officially - concern themselves with the controversy over the 46th Dai. That bit of history may show the seedy past of our "royal family" but it does not help us in solving the real problems facing the bohras today. In any system where succession is arbitrary, its legitimacy is always open to question. The hidden Imam, declaration of Nass etc. are all secretive affairs, and the general public has no way of knowing what happens behind closed doors. Even if the Nass is absolutely legit how can one tell. It's Dai's word against everybody else's. Besides, how far back in history are we to go to unearth illegitimate successions? The Nass business is always going to be a murky affair. The only way out is to remove power from the position of the Dai and restore it to what it used to be i.e. that of a mere functionary of the Dawaat. To end the cult of the Dai is one of the aims of the reform movement. No more "sultan" and "royal family" crap.

EAW, the question is not of fact or fiction - but of truth. The official history by the rulers - any rulers - cannot be accepted without questioning and investigation. Given the character and (mis)doings of Taher Safuddin Saheb, his version of events should be taken with a huge chunk of salt.

[hluqmani]

Humsafar, basically I agree with you that the Nass question would be irrelevent provided the Dai fulfilled his duties as the religious leader of the community without exploitation to amass personal wealth and power.
Up until the 50th Dai there was no serious issue and the knowledge about Nass was confined to a few learned people. The community at large was unaware that anything was amiss. It was only when the 51st Dai started building his powerbase and the financial empire that the trouble began. The court cases were about money and property, not about Nass. It was Taher Saifuddin Saheb himself who brought up the topic of Nass to support his claim of absolute power as Daiul Mutlaq over all the community property.
The question of Nass in itself is a mute point but it is being used even by the present Dai to give him authority far greater than was ever claimed by the "rightful Dais in the past". In that sense I agree that to argue about Nass is counter productive to our cause.

[hluqmani]

Some interesting statistics about our Duaate Fatemi

The line of Dais started in Yemen with Syedna Zoeb bin Musa who took office on 22 Shaaban 532 Hijri

The First Dai in India was Syedna Mohammad Yusuf Najmuddin bin Sulaiman who took office in 946 Hijri. He was the 24th Dai. He was buried in Hamdan, Yemen. All subsequent Dais, with the exception of the 30th are buried in India; 9 in Ahmedabad, 5 in Jamnagar, 3 in Ujjain, 1 in Burhanpur, 7 in Surat and 1 in Mumbai

Period of Dawat in Yemen was 414 years and in India 484 years so far
It has been 174 years since the 47th Dai Syedna AbdulQadir Najmuddin took office

The longest serving Dais were
52 years #51 Syedna Taher Saifuddin
46 #47 Syedna Abdul Qadir Najmuddin
45 so far #52 Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin TUS
45 #20 Syedna Hasan Badruddin ibne Syedna Idris Imaduddin
42 #11 Syedna Ibrahim bin S.Husain bin S.Ali bin Mohammad
40 #19 Syedna Idris Imaduddin bin Syedna Hasan Badruddin
39 #8 Syedna Husain bin Syedna Ali bin Mohammad
38 #3 Syedna Hatim bin Syedna Ibrahim al-Haamidi

The shortest periods of office were
40 days #22 Syedna Ali Shamsuddin bin Syedna Husain Husamuddin
4 months #25 Syedna Jalal Shamsuddin bin Hasan
13 months #30 Syedna Qasimkhan Zainuddin bin PeerKhan
13 months #12 Syedna Mohammad bin Hatim bin S.Husain bin S.Ali bin Mohammad
15 months #7 Syedna Ahmed bin Mubarak bin Waleed

The above data is compiled based on information from "A SHORT HISTORY OF FATEMI DUAAT" by Ahmed Lqmani

My apologies for the scope of this post being outside the topic title

[hluqmani]

sorry there was an error in my last post

the shortest terms..........
30th Dai was Syedna Ali Shamsuddin bin Hasan bin Idrees bin Syedna Husain

The name I listed wrongly belongs to the 31st Dai

[ozmujaheed]

I realise the recent Diais' and my memory recalls 51st and 52nd claim special supernatural abilities like communicating with a hidden Imam and there are various definitions around hidden. Also around them being Masuum ! I do not accept those claims personally and are more a result of extereme devotion and subconsious faith which is okay for those who beleive in it.

Does anyone have documented historical records of what the earlier Diais practised...did they claim infallibility ?

Any intellectual debate around this is welcome ? I already know there is view that the mythology was created for a specifioc pupose and I really want to avoid leading the debate into an abuse match between 2 side. All I want is a analysis of the history when it started not why ?

[S. Insaf]

Dear brother ozmujaheed,
Please read Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer’s article, Doctrine of infallibility in Islamili tradition in “Reform Issues” on this board.