A question to the progressives

[profastian]

After reading all the posts i have come to the conclusion that you guy dont really believe in the current DAI-e-zaman being the appointed DAI by Imam. So my question is,"what do you guys really believe in?"

1) Do you believe in the imam? If you do what kind of belief. What kind of powers does the imam have?
2) Do u believe in the office of the dawat? What is the role of that office according to you?
3) How should the community be run if not by the DAI? As for the collection of monies on which you guys have so much objection. If not the DAI then who should do it? You got to have some collection to run dawat. Every religion i know of collects money from its followers for organizational expenses.

And please guy dont beat abt the bush as you have done previously in posts. Just give brief precise answers.

[merchant786]

I agree with you that the collection is required but the question is how much?

Is it really necessary to force people to pay more when they are not able to genuiely?

Is it ok to live an extraordinary life style when 60% of the community is below the poverty line(as per the survey conducted by burhani college)

Is it acceptable that we do not have the right to ask the question as to why are we told to perform certain acts like mataam every minute and uttering lanaats in broad day light and creating enimosity amoung different sects?

[Human]

After reading all the posts i have come to the conclusion that you guy dont really believe in the current DAI-e-zaman being the appointed DAI by Imam. So my question is,"what do you guys really believe in?"

1) Do you believe in the imam? If you do what kind of belief. What kind of powers does the imam have?
2) Do u believe in the office of the dawat? What is the role of that office according to you?
3) How should the community be run if not by the DAI? As for the collection of monies on which you guys have so much objection. If not the DAI then who should do it? You got to have some collection to run dawat. Every religion i know of collects money from its followers for organizational expenses.

And please guy dont beat abt the bush as you have done previously in posts. Just give brief precise answers.

I believe in Dai-uz-zaman.
I believe in Imam too.
Office of dawat is essential for the community to keep going, however they should stop the loot.
Dai should run the community, but in an appropriate way. People should be able to know what is being done with the money collected. As an organisation, people deserve the right to ask and also deserve a right to a proper answer. I do know of religions that do not collect money, however I don't want to drag on that as most religions do collect money.
Moreover, everything people are asked to do should have a logical explanation and people shouldn't be scared of asking when they have doubts. They should be allowed the freedom to choose and not forced into something. Also, when people cannot afford to pay the amount of money asked from them, they shouldn't be held up doing a burial or mayyat ceremony.

If you know enough about our dawood bohra community, can I please ask you to give proper answers to my questions in another thread? This is a humble request.

Thank you.

[like_minded]

After reading all the posts i have come to the conclusion that you guy dont really believe in the current DAI-e-zaman being the appointed DAI by Imam. So my question is,"what do you guys really believe in?"

1) Do you believe in the imam? If you do what kind of belief. What kind of powers does the imam have?
2) Do u believe in the office of the dawat? What is the role of that office according to you?
3) How should the community be run if not by the DAI? As for the collection of monies on which you guys have so much objection. If not the DAI then who should do it? You got to have some collection to run dawat. Every religion i know of collects money from its followers for organizational expenses.

And please guy dont beat abt the bush as you have done previously in posts. Just give brief precise answers.

1. I don't believe in Imam because I don't think believing in Imam or not is going to make any difference, I am fundamentally against this belief system which all religions try hard to enforce. It is rubbish!!

2. Again I don't believe in the office of dawat, because I think we are better off without it.

3. The community needs no dai... all it needs is Love, Respect, Understanding, Education, Freedom, Fun.

4. We should have Charitable trusts run by elected members in the community for helping the needy.

[profastian]

If you know enough about our dawood bohra community, can I please ask you to give proper answers to my questions in another thread? This is a humble request.

Ok lets look at the money question. The money that is collected is of the following forms. Zakat, Silla Fitra, Sabeel and Saify Barakaat, salaams to aamil for daress, majlis, sadarat, Raza and najwas and salaams to DAI.

Zakat: Yes the local aamil will force you to pay a lot. But 2.5% of your earnings is FARZ on you as zakat. At the end, what you pay is much less than wat you owe. The aamil forces you because you are not willing to pay 2,5% of your earnings. As for the accountability, Quran has ordered mumineen to pay Zakat to the Rasool. It is his to keep and he is not to be held accountable for it. Whether he spends it on himself to adopt a lavish lifestyle or give it away, is his own discretion. He owns the money and no one has the right to held him accountable for it. So thats chapter closed on Zakat.

Silla Fitra: The amount of Silla fitra is very nominal (abt $1.5) per person. This is also to be paid to the DAI and he is not be held accountable for it. Rasool lillah said that Silla Fitra is even Farz for a begger. He has to pay it even he has to beg for it. And if you dont pay it your Roza and Namaz will not be qabool. The aamil forces you to pay it so that all your hardship in Ramazan doesnt go to waste.

Sabeel and Saify Barakaat: These are collected for purely organizational purposes. Not a penny goes to the DAI. All of it remains in the local jamaat. So u cant blame the DAI for it. Yes there is corruption at the local level. But have you ever seen an organization without corruption. These are managed by the local jamaat and these jamaat people belong to the local community. these are not send or elected by the DAI or anything. A few may be corrupt. But again that happens. And there is no way to create a purely non corrupt system. There are many mohallas where this money is used for some great development work. All depends on the aamil and not on the syedna. To counter this corruption, the syedna has devised a system, where the aamil keeps changing every 2-3 years. so if an aamil is corrupt, you are not stuck with him for ever.

salaams to aamil for daress, majlis, sadarat: Well you dont need to take raza for anything if you dont want to. You are not compelled to do it. So why are you crying for that. and if you are forced then the local aamil or jammat may be corrupt. In my mohalla and the mohalla's i know nothing of the sort happens.

najwas and salaams to DAI: Again no compulsion. The aamil will ask you to do it because the imam said that he who doesnt pay us silat at least once a year is not momim. But still there are is no force. Its your own choice. As for the salaam to DAI, u dont have to.In fact, you will be lucky if you ever get to.

[Human]

Profestian,
Thank you for the explanation. Assuming all you said is true, I might jump to the like_minded's bandwagon where there's no force. I don't like to give 2.5% of my income to the community who can't account to me what will they do with it. This is what I don't like about the community. You do what we ask you to do, don't ask questions, don't ask for any details. Monetary dealings is our business, nothing of your concern. I'd rather donate that 2.5% to poor and needy, between I already do that. Try it someday, it feels very satisfactory. God feels right in your heart. Before when paying the aamil, I felt great grief on losing the money. But helping others out and observing the rules of humanity feels so good.
like_minded is definately right about love, respect, education etc. maybe he's right about dai and imam too. It could just be that I still don't have enough courage to openly admit that I'm against them. I'm not sure though.

[profastian]

It could just be that I still don't have enough courage to openly admit that I'm against them. I'm not sure though.

Well if you dont believe in the office of the imam and the DAI, then you are not a dawoodi bohra. And i think this is a forum for those who are bohras but want some change (whether right or wrong is another question). So without any disrespect i dont think our discussion is with guyz like you.

[anajmi]

profastian,

Quran has ordered mumineen to pay Zakat to the Rasool. It is his to keep and he is not to be held accountable for it.

Can you point out where in the quran this order appears? I will explain what the quran says about zakat after I get your response.

[Biradar]

Zakat: Yes the local aamil will force you to pay a lot. But 2.5% of your earnings is FARZ on you as zakat. At the end, what you pay is much less than wat you owe. The aamil forces you because you are not willing to pay 2,5% of your earnings. As for the accountability, Quran has ordered mumineen to pay Zakat to the Rasool.

Brother "profastian",

You are another orthodox fanatic who knows nothing about Islam or Bohra religion. Please read chapter on Zakaat in Daim al-Islam by S. Qazi Noman. The amount is not 2.5% of your earnings, but of your savings and money/property which you have accumulated in a year and that too if it exceeds a certain amount. Aamils order you to pay even if you have no savings or are making very little. There is no historical precedence for various other salaams (mazoon, mukasir etc) and entries on the form you fill. In fact, the salaam for mazoon and mukasir did not exist till a few years ago.

Also, please point out where it is written that accountability is not required? Quite the contrary. Zakat is collected for a very specific purpose and spending it on personal use of the collector is not allowed. In fact, as I said in another thread, Ali even changed the lamp oil to one he had bought from his own money when doing personal work. Contrast that to the decadent and luxurious lifestyle of your leaders. Do you think it is okay to spend public funds on hunting, making palatial houses (the aamil of LA has spent 3 million+ on his home) eating fine foods? Actually, do not answer. Every time you write something you sling mud on your maula and make a bigger fool of yourself. Shame on you and your ilk.

[Humsafar]

Profestian, welcome to the forum. Actually your questions are addressed to "guys" and each individual may have a different answer depending on their personal beliefs, experience etc. And you've seen that from like_minded and Human (I welcome you too to the forum).

Your questions should rather be addressed to the reformists as a group, as a movement. You must ask what is their official position on these matters, and the answer is that it is not different from the beliefs and tenets of Dawoodi Bohras.

1) Do you believe in the imam? If you do what kind of belief. What kind of powers does the imam have?

Yes. The same beliefs and powers as enshrined in our scriptures.

2) Do u believe in the office of the dawat? What is the role of that office according to you?

Yes. The role of the dawat as explained in scriptures (and not according to us) is to call people to faith.

How should the community be run if not by the DAI? As for the collection of monies on which you guys have so much objection. If not the DAI then who should do it? You got to have some collection to run dawat. Every religion i know of collects money from its followers for organizational expenses.

The dai is a spiritual leader and his primary role is to call people to faith, and to also provide guidance and knowledge in matters spiritual. The dai has no business "running" the community. No Dais previous to th 51st ever did that. "Running" the community is an innovation, it is not part of Dawoodi Bohra faith. If all jamaat are left to themselves and allowed to operate autonomously, the community will run itself. The dai and his office can and should provide broad guidelines in keeping with Islam and Dawoodi Bohra tradition for jamaats to manage their own affairs.

No, every religion does not collect money. It is only the centralised structures built around religion that do so. And if you look at the history of dawooid bohras there is no need for any cetnralised orgnaisation that we have now. And the problem, as we reformists see it, is not about collecting money per se. It's collection money by force and under duress that is the problem. Then a lack of accountability, meaning how much money is collected and how it is spent, is another major problem. Accountability is central to Islamic and Shia faith. Ali ibn Talib made it a point of honour and went to extremes to make sure that he did not use the public fund (bait al maal) for personal gain. Reformists are asking for transparency and accountability.

It is wrong to say that we are just hung up on money. We are not. It is the current dawat that can't think without money. Give me one instance of Sayedna saheb visiting a poor bohra's house, or any house without demanding a fat purse.

Reformists have been pointing out so many other issues which have nothing to do with money: ex-communication (baraat) and misusing raza and misaq to control and coerce people, the cult around the personality of the dai etc. etc. All these issues are innovations and unjustified in the light of our religion and our history.

Just want to reiterate, all these questions about the Imam and the position of the Dai are red-herrings, an attempt to draw us into doctrinal debate. Because the orthos know that they cannot fault us on our agenda of reform, they always attempt to divert the discussion to side issues. Please do not fall into this trap, and if at all you want to venture an opinion please, please make sure that you underline it as your personal opinion. They are notorious for generalising things - they have the power of propaganda, so we have to be extremely careful.

[Biradar]

After reading all the posts i have come to the conclusion that you guy dont really believe in the current DAI-e-zaman being the appointed DAI by Imam. So my question is,"what do you guys really believe in?"

As you have show yourself to be an ignorant fool, you have come to this ridiculous conclusion. I am sorry to say you either do not know how to read and/or are a liar.

1) Do you believe in the imam? If you do what kind of belief. What kind of powers does the imam have?
2) Do u believe in the office of the dawat? What is the role of that office according to you?
3) How should the community be run if not by the DAI? As for the collection of monies on which you guys have so much objection. If not the DAI then who should do it? You got to have some collection to run dawat. Every religion i know of collects money from its followers for organizational expenses.

1) Yes, reformists do believe in the imam. The beliefs are laid out in various books written by the da'is and no reformist ever challenges that. Do not think that every person on this board is a reformist. People of all sorts come here and express their opinion or vent their frustration. That does not mean that what they say represents reformist position. If we were to use your logic I would conclude that all orthodox are nasty, foul mouthed fools based on what you and your ilk say here. However, I know many nice, kind, charitable and gentle orthodox people and hence do not apply that brush to all orthodox bohras.

2) Yes, reformists believe in the office of the da'i, the mazoon and the mukasir. The role of these folk is laid out in several books, in particular, books written by Sayedna Hatim (the 3rd da'i). You are welcome to read them as we subscribe to all of those beliefs.

3) The community needs money to run. However, the aamils, the da'i's children and vast extended family is not allowed to live off community funds. Brother, they have gotten used to a luxurious lifestyle and invent a new pretext everyday to keep milking you so that they can continue to enjoy themselves at your expense. Accountability is a must. Just because one is the son of a mulla or a shahzada does not mean that you are not accountable.

Also, we are not worried so much about the money but are more concerned about the extreme power the da'i and his administration wants to exert on our lives. Today, power is from money.

We simply want better accountability, less interference in secular matters and leaving matters of religion, in the ultimate analysis, to our conscience. The da'i's job is to advice people and encourage them to follow Islam. They do not have the authority to force anyone. Today, all we see is extreme social pressure to conform to the same mold. Our culture is very rich and our history is very interesting. All of this has now being destroyed to make a means for the enjoyment of the mullahs and the aamils. This is no different that the destructions by the wahabbis of Janatul Baqi and the graves of Fatema, Hassan and the first few imams. The difference is that the wahabbis destroyed physical objects but your masters have destroyed a millennium of culture, history and philosophy.

[porus]

Extremely commendable responses from Biradar and Humsafar. Well done guys.

I like your emphasis on the reformist official position as opposed to the opinions of individuals on this forum. What you have posted here highlights the woeful state of ignorance of the 'orthodox' contributors regarding the religion of the Bohras.

Many of us who grew up 40-50 years ago still cherish the knowledge about our religion imparted to us by the then aamils and the teachers in madrassas. That was so very different from the situation today where our children are fed a steady diet of maatam and dai-worship.

[Human]

My personal opinion:

After reading Humsafar's comment, the running of our community centrally has become very much like Catholicism. From my reading and research about Catholic church and the corruption in Vatican, the running of our community by the royal family sounds like a smaller version of what the Catholic church has been doing for so many centuries. While for us, everything was fine until maybe about 100 years ago!

[Al Zulfiqar]

My personal opinion:

After reading Humsafar's comment, the running of our community centrally has become very much like Catholicism. From my reading and research about Catholic church and the corruption in Vatican, the running of our community by the royal family sounds like a smaller version of what the Catholic church has been doing for so many centuries. While for us, everything was fine until maybe about 100 years ago!

human, go back about 600 years into the history of the papacy to the point where martin luther rebelled and was burnt at the stake. that is where we are today in bohradom. the syedna must be regretting that society isnt as barbaric today as it was then to be able to burn all his enemies alive, although ghanu jeevo does mention, "hazaron saal jalse aapna dushman".. which betrays their murderous mindset.

the church then was above any state law, owned the best lands and was richer than any king or emperor of those days, any dissent against the church resulted in death by excommunication, ostracism, torture and a hideous death. the pope sold 'favours' and holy tokens which were to be compulsorily purchased to save one's soul and as a guaranteed passage to paradise. much like the fat salaams, najwas, ruku chitthis, and countless other innovative taxes and fees collected from us for the syedna to come in our kabr, punch munkar and nakeer in the face, defy allah, and lead us to heaven holding his feeble fingers..!!

[accountability]

Very good replies by biradar and hamsafar. Biradar you have smartly opened the chapter closed by pro.... on Zakat. His half baked knowledge about islam and mustaali ismaili religion reflects the depth of knowledge among jamia trained. He was so emphatic on his version that he closed the chapter.
Quran has very elobrately discussed the ways to spend zakat money collected by muslim ruler. Dai is not a muslim ruler.

[profastian]

Well after reading all your replies i have come to the conclusion that you believe in the mustaali imaams. Now as you guyz have so much problem about the lavish lifestyle of syedna, then go read the history books and see how lavish was the lifestyle of the mustaali imaams. Especially read up on how lavish the celebrations were on the birth of Imaam Tayyab.

[Human]

Well after reading all your replies i have come to the conclusion that you believe in the mustaali imaams. Now as you guyz have so much problem about the lavish lifestyle of syedna, then go read the history books and see how lavish was the lifestyle of the mustaali imaams. Especially read up on how lavish the celebrations were on the birth of Imaam Tayyab.

Profestian, my knowledge about the life of mustaali imaams is very shallow. Can I please ask you to be so kind and share your knowledge here, or if you have some links of some information about them then I can enlighten myself.
Thank you.

[S. Insaf]

Dear profastian,

Q1) Do you believe in the imam? If you do what kind of belief? What kind of powers does the imam have?

This question has been answered by late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb way back in 1925.

Q2) Do you believe in the office of the Dawat?

Yes we believe in the office of Dai and Fatemi Dawat. Question is whether the present Dai, family members and his Amils believe in them? There are certain conditions and qualifications both for a true Dai and system of Dawat.

Q3) What is the role of that office (Dai) according to you?

The role of Dai is already defined in “Qualifications of a Dai” which for any one to refer on this board.

Q4) How should the community be run if not by the Dai?

Dai is required to act as religious guide to the believers nothing more. All secular and social affairs of the community should be run by individual Jamats. This pattern continued from 1st Dai to 50th Dai. But after 51st Dai assumed the absolute powers every one except Dai was powerless in the religious as well Jamat matters. Today Fatemi Dawat has become an establishment. An establishment invites all sorts of corruptions.

Q5) As for the collection of monies on which you guys have so much objection. If not the Dai then who should do it? You got to have some collection to run Dawat. Every religion I know of collects money from its followers for organizational expenses.

Dawat is a religious mission. It is not an organisation or a club.
The grandfather of Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb i.e. 49th Dai Sayedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb was poor and indebted and one of his own Amil loaned him an amount of rupees 50,000 on simple interest. When the Dai could not pay back that amount his concerned Amil filed a suit against him and tried to put him in Jail. Shocked and perturbed Sir Adamji called a world conference of Bohras and requested Amils to send a small percentage of their income towards the centre for Dai to meet his daily expenses.

I think you are intelligent enough to understand the difference.

[ghulam muhammed]

Well if you dont believe in the office of the imam and the DAI, then you are not a dawoodi bohra. And i think this is a forum for those who are bohras but want some change (whether right or wrong is another question). So without any disrespect i dont think our discussion is with guyz like you.

Based on your own logic let me pose a simple question to you and give me a logical answer:-

In 2002, during BJP's rule, the BJP led chief minister (Your mola's friend) Narendra Modi carried out a mass genocide in gujarat deliberately massacring thousands of innocent muslims. Hence as per your logic anyone raising their voice against the government or filing criminal cases against BJP office bearers (whether right or wrong is another question) are not Indians as they didnt believe in that BJP leadership.

[ghulam muhammed]

At the end, what you pay is much less than wat you owe.

Tell me who decides this criteria ? The payer or payee.

The aamil forces you because you are not willing to pay 2,5% of your earnings

So you really think that the amil's genuine concern is that you pay only 2.5% of your earnings. I dont know in which world you are living after seeing clear evidences around you of the forceful extortion of money in the name of zakat and fixing a 'minimum' amount for jamaats irrespective of ones income.

It is his to keep and he is not to be held accountable for it. Whether he spends it on himself to adopt a lavish lifestyle or give it away, is his own discretion.

When you give alms to a beggar, you have no right to think even after you see the beggar smoking charas or spending the money on gambling. As per your logic you must just give,give and give him inspite of knowing that the beggar is on drugs and gambling with your money.

He owns the money and no one has the right to held him accountable for it. So thats chapter closed on Zakat.

Who owns the zakat money ? A corrupt leader with a lavish lifestyle or Allah (swt) whose command you are following ?

But have you ever seen an organization without corruption.

No, I have rarely seen any organisation which is not corrupt but I have seen umpteen number of cases where 'People raise their voices against corruption' and 'Where the administration takes serious steps to tackle the issue'. Have you seen that in Bohraism ?

All depends on the aamil and not on the syedna

Who appoints the amil ? Who does the amil represent ? The answer is "Syedna' and so it is 'syedna's' duty to reprimand the amil after knowing that he is corrupt. How many amils have been punished in the past for their misdeeds ?

To counter this corruption, the syedna has devised a system, where the aamil keeps changing every 2-3 years. so if an aamil is corrupt, you are not stuck with him for ever.

Are you a regular visitor to Burhanpur ? I think you are. In the last 10 years how many new amils have you seen ? It is the one and only ruthless, highly corrupt Aun Ali who calls the shot in burhanpur, courtesy his close proximity to Mufaddal bhaisaab who is assured of a regular fixed cut from burhanpur.

Well you dont need to take raza for anything if you dont want to. You are not compelled to do it. So why are you crying for that. and if you are forced then the local aamil or jammat may be corrupt.

This is one big joke. Just ask your abde friends who have dared to do things without 'raza'.

najwas and salaams to DAI: Again no compulsion.

One more big joke. Try to go for qadambosi in saifee mahal empty handed and then share your experience with us.

the imam said that he who doesnt pay us silat at least once a year is not momim.

Please quote some reference from some authentic religous books first.

[Human]

The grandfather of Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb i.e. 49th Dai Sayedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb was poor and indebted and one of his own Amil loaned him an amount of rupees 50,000 on simple interest. When the Dai could not pay back that amount his concerned Amil filed a suit against him and tried to put him in Jail. Shocked and perturbed Sir Adamji called a world conference of Bohras and requested Amils to send a small percentage of their income towards the centre for Dai to meet his daily expenses.

I would like to make a mention here about the 'Alavi Bohras' in Baroda. From my personal experience some years ago, their Aamil of Baroda or whatever their head of a city is called lives like a normal person. He has a small shop and he sells glasses, lenses, etc for a living. When they have niyaz, the head just comes and joins any thaal with the normal people. They don't have special treatment or special thaal with double the amounts of mithaas and kharaas and so much meat that would make a carnivore predator shy. He doesn't live off other people's money. He has his small shop and whatever he gets in salaams is gladly accepted as being a leading mulla is his voluntary participation and not a full time job like our aamils. All he does is conducts namaz on time and helps with getting ceremonies like nikah or mayyat sorted. He doesn't solely look after the jamaat and doesn't call all the shots.

[ghulam muhammed]

I too have heard that the mazoon of Alvi bohra is a doctor by profession having a clinic at nagpada and lives in a flat at shepherd road, byculla and is easily accessable to every alvi bohra.

One very good thing about alvi bohras is that they have a commitee which takes care of all the functions required to be carried out after the death of a person i.e. when someone dies the deceased family just makes a phone call and the volunters arrive in no time and take care of everything from obtaining the death certificate, arranging for a hearse, making arrangements for digging the grave etc. In short the bereaved family need not bother about anything at all at the time of this deep crisis which is a great relief for them.