unfair collection of sabil

[mumin]

in some of the jamaats in u.s. the practice of sabil collection is very unfair. sabil is used for the expenses of supplying food to the mumineen, maintenance of the markaz etc. and the total expenses for the year should be equally divided among all the members. there should be no favouritism. it was found that the crooks of the atlanta goonda committee are demanding $2000 sabil from some mumineen and $400 from some mumineen. this is wrong. everyone should pitch in equally.

[Jamali]

Dear Mumin,

Asalam Alaikum! Thank you for those interesting findings. I would just like to add a few things to the above thread.

I totally agree that its unfair that some people are asked 2000 Sabil and others 400. They should be asked MORE!!! If we are giving in the name of Maula then what is 2000 and 400???Peanuts i say...Its said that we should contribute 1/5 of our incomes towards "Zakat" and Sabil and Wajeebat come under that "title". Lets remember then most of the time the combined income of the household is a lot more and by contributing peanuts isn't showing true love for our Maula...If we have true belief in him and consider him to be our "Dai" then the above are just figures. We should be able to give ALL what we have.

In many cases the "rich or upper class" always act as Chamchas of the Amils and Bhaisahebs and because of this closeness they are asked to pay alot less then what they are required to pay. To recover the rest the middle and poor class are made to cough up the deficits. Let us advocate for Sabils and Waajebats to be decided based on the incomes of individuals. In Countries like Canada and US where tax aversion is pretty tricky, lets have "COMBINED HOUSEHOLD tax returns declared at the Jaamat offices and Sabil and Waajebat figures decided based on that. I dont think any "Momineen" should have a problem in declaring their incomes to the Jaamats especially when they are always asking Maula to take their 'decisions for them aka "Arzi's. This way Saabil and Waajebat will be equally demanded based on the individuals income. The Jaamats will also help identify those culprits who always ask for revisions of their Sabils by lying to the Jaamats and Indirectly lying to Maula about their incomes and situations. This is a common practice in many Bohra families. If we are "Maula's followers we should atleast not lie to him or his locally appointed Amils or Jaamats!!!

Another thing that reformists need to do is make sure "Head Office" aka Saifee Mahal is aware of the high income earners in these countries like U.S, Canada, U.K, Australia etc. Most of these countries have the top income earners mentioned on public websites. Why cant the reformists help Saifee Mahal by providing such information (names of individuals, their families and their combined household incomes and / or their businesses / assets!) along with possible demandable figures from these individuals directly at the head office? I am sure when these figures are noticed by Saifee Mahal, the local Amils will be "enlightened" directly by "headquarters" as to what to collect and from whom!!!

These measures are better suited to help the reformists make progress rather than wasting time throwing words to deaf and dumb minds!

So fellow reformists if we truly want change lets TRY TO DO SOMETHING to bring about change rather than just spewing words.!!! Unless "ALL or MOST" momineen are affected by these atrocities (especially the rich and upper class) there is no way you are making headway.

[mumin]

bro jamali; agreed. let us disclose income. Let us start with the clergy. you will be shocked at the amount. It is said that the aga Khan is considered one of the richest man in the world. The wealth of the clergy will leave this Aga Khan far, far behind. Imagine all the cash salams in millions from all over the world ,colected for the past sixty years; and that is just the start. They have rooms full of cash.
The purpose of zakat is to help the poor not rob the poor to make the clergy rich.

yes,many came to the Rasool and were happy to give zakat of their own free will. The rasool dare not ask for their balance sheet. It is only Allah's right. The people were happy to offer all that they could,because they knew of the simple living of the Rasool and that their money would not be hoarded by the rasool to make him rich ,but would be used for the purpose intended.
you are asking people to open their balance sheet. do you then take the responsibility of also clearing their debt .
your anology is that of firon." i am God, I can kill any one I desire , but to make him alive again, that i cannot do.
The bohri is a traditional, cultural and social order masked under the veil of being a sectorial muslim religion. Capitalizing on the inherent weakness of man being a social animal, This one family is exploiting the mumineen to its fullest advantage. If their hearts were clean their accounts would also be clear. there would be no need for this hide and seek ,give me more ,give me more.and typical british policy of calling one by one to pay up their wajebat and endless negotiating. It tells you right there that this is a bussiness and vapari vohra( bohra )trading is going on between the kothar and the mumineen.
The very word "sabil" means fe sabilillah". what ever one can give in the name of Allah.
sabil is not zakat. It is collected by the goonda committee to bear the expenses of keeping up with the social get togethers. Transparancy and equality should be practised. why should the 'chamchas get away with nothing and the rich man pay so the goondas can have a jolly good time at his expense.
The Rasool, Issa nabi, Ibrahim nabi,Moosa nabi, they all paid zakat and more for the love of Allah. their zakat was in healing the wounds of the sick, taking care of orphans, feeding the hungry etc. There were no dollars, they had no gold coins,they were truley messangers of Allah whose only goal in this world was to please Allah. what is the clergy doing in the white gharb to please Allah,except add more zero's to the ever bulging wealth.
Think again before you ask the common man to show his balance sheet. There are god fearing people still on this earth that will hapily give away all they have ,regardless of 1/5th to save another soul, as has been witnessed in the recent floods in Pakistan. But their wealth is not for the crooked and cunning to take their hard earned wealth and add to their wealth.

[Jamali]

Asalam Alaikum Bro Mumin,

Thank you for this nice insight. Like you have realised and I am sure many out there have realised is that the jaamats are being handled as a business and "Sabil" is just fancy words of extortion. If you agree that the community has so much money, then why make people pay SABIL in the first place???

Secondly you talk about equality. You agree all Bohras dont have the same incomes so why then if one has to pay Sabil then it should be divided equally??? If you are in the same community as your fellow brothers and sisters and if they dont earn more than you then why do you equal his share of his Sabil? why should u not pay more if you can afford to pay to more??? I dont see equality in what you are suggesting.

Thirdly Allah doesnt need to ask your Balance Sheet as he is the Giver and he knows all.

Brother Mumin..you are missing the point here. You have nicely elaborated the crooked ways of the Jaamat and the Sabils and Waajebats as a means of self richness by one particular family. Its a known fact that, where during the Rasool days, these acts were practiced for its true cause; that is to help the poor, it is not the case with the royal family. Its ironical that religious leaders live in luxury as evidenced by the grandness of "Saifee Mahal" while the momineen suffer and the best part is, no one questions that.

However by you and me talking about this inequality and atrocities, doesnt change the mentality of the Royal family, Jamat or its fanatical Momineen. These acts carry on and get worst every day. This is because the fundamental weapon they have against their people is FEAR and EXCOMMUNICATION. Sadly very very few dont heed to that and they are branded as reformists and "Dawat na Dushman"
Most of them are caught in their webs and are forced to cough up these amounts. The majority of these people are the middle and lower class as they dont have the capacity to please the bhaisahebs and Amils. If you will notice that the "Chamchas" of these people are the rich who have the means and are smart enough to please these Amils and Bhaisahebs and get into the fold so that they can also benefit from this extortions.

By ensuring that people declare their true incomes and Sabils and Waajebats be based on that will ensure that these middle class and lower class can at least pay within their means. You have to realise that these people arent strong enough to fight this, as with time the royal family has gotten so strong that they have become like "Politicians" They have the money and power to change people minds and they are doing that to get what they want. The middle class and poor have been so marginalised within their own communities that it becomes difficult to oppose these atrocities.

Brother mumin, by you and me just talking wont help. Thats what our reformist elders used to do and although they made headway as seen in parts of India, the Royal family and its goondas are smart and have now started brainwashing children right from birth to ensure they interests continue to thrive. Most of the people in the community have been brainwashed to the point that they cant think for themselves. This is evidenced by the fact that even when a child is born the name comes from Saifee Mahal. This is the sad reality of the community today.

I see in the forum; people who are dying supporters of the Royal Family despite the fact that they ALSO KNOW about the atrocities that are being carried out. These people are not that stupid enough to actually suffer from these atrocities and also continue supporting the "royal" institution. They do it, because, more likely than not, they have canvased themselves from these wrong doings by becoming the "chamchas" of these Goondas or by smartly knowing that currently they are paying alot less than what they should be and hence playing smart and showing full support. When u are least effected by an issue, why fight for it???

So the only way is to bring equality in these acts. If you have the capacity to pay these extortions, by all means pay fairly and continue being supportive of the acts. However dont live on other peoples miseries and make others suffer for your own gains. How ironical it is for some that they claim that Maula has made me rich and its because of him, we are what we are and that they are full supporters of the community but when it comes to him asking for his share of your prosperity i.e paying Sabil and Waajebat you start lying that I dont earn this much while in actual fact you can afford to pay alot more. Dont be a hypocrite! If he is the reason behind your success then by all means he should be fairly given his dues also!!!! And if you feel that Sabil and Waajebaat are not fair then fight it..Dont keep quiet and let the others actually suffer literally on your expense!!!

In summary:
1. Muala na Farzando should not be liars to the very person they believe in. Hence the act of falsely appealing for revision of the Sabil and Waajebat should stop! Our Maula knows all...We in the community believe this so if this has been decided by him or his appointed men then why revise????
2. If our lives are dictated by Maula as evidenced by "Arzis" for names of our born children, whether he should go to school or not, which school he should go, his blessings in passing exams, what career path he should choose or not, who he should get married to, what business he should do, where he should stay, shifa in sickness etc then why are you afraid of letting him know how much you earn????? If you see, your whole life is based on "his blessings" then why should he not know what you earn and partake your wealth!!!!
3. Let there be fairness in the community. By declaring your COMBINED (combined means everyone in the family and not just the least income earner as this amounts to lying!) income you will bring fairness to the whole process.

For the benefit of the Amils and the BhaiSahebs through "Chamchas" on the forum:
1. You are supporters of Aqa Maula and his representatives...Let someone who comes for revision of Sabils and Waajebats be an indicator for not having trust for our beloved Dai.
2. If he does come for revision, ask them to declare their last 2 years statement of the family income before deciding on the revision. If our Maula gives so much for the community, its only fair that the community reciprocates.
3. In countries like US, Canada etc high income earners over a certain figures are publicly available on the websites. These should be used to decide on the Sabils and Waajebats for these people. Same reason should be used as in number 2 for demanding such amounts. Remember collection of this money if for our Maula so anything that helps him should be done.

I rest my case. Just food for thought!

[mumin]

bro jamali; sabil is not a percentage of income. sabil is used for the various gatherings through out the year just as in your house you only spend what you can afford,so also the local jamaat should only spend what the local community can bear, all together . I once raised the question of huge sabil to a local amil and his response ' because we have very high expenses. well. my answer,cut your expenses down so the little that people save for their own should not be blown away in rich food, decorations, fat salams ec. The very word sabil means fe sabillilah, give what you can , but the kothar demands it from the mumineen and depending on how they feel about you they set a figure. This is very unfair.
as far as getting raza for various occasions, like naming the child etc, was never in the picture . this was another dirty ploy of the kothar to make themslves feel wanted . the whole raza business has nothing to do whethyer one will be successful in bussiness or not or whether the child will pass the exams or whether the sick will be healed. There are a lot of rich people in the world to day that do not even know of the dai, and there are a lot of children that are named by their phopi(abohri trafdition)that are fine and have excelled in their career.
Agree with me that all this raza business is solely for the purpose of milking the community and the weak without faith in Allah fall down. Let me quote here that when the Rasool started preaching islam the mullas of idol worshippers did not like it one bit since their income stream was in turmoil. to stop Islam from spreading the rasool's family was bycotted. And it was in such conditions that Fatima was born where help came from the Almighty Allah.

[mumin]

the purpose of this exercise is to make a wrong right and have the courage and faith in your creator not to be subdued by another human being.
i appeal to all good mumineen;have faith in your creator,Allah. do not succumb to the exorbitant demands of the man in white garb. he did not create you . He is just another player in this world and will try all the tricks to get deep into your pockets for his selfish gain. and exploit you to the fullest and make you his slave,if you let him.
If you do not use the common sense that Allah has provided to you out of his mercy; then ,you are not going to pass your exams just because you have taken raza from the dai and you would not get well just because you drink the water in which he has mixed his saliva. because he for sure did not make you sick.
sabil,wajebats, zakat and a host of other dues demanded by the clergy all fall in the same line. you do not have to give zakat to the clergy if in your conscious you feel that your money would make you more happy if it was used to help out your poor neighbor. you have nothing to fear but fear itself and fear is shaitans weapon of destruction. He will lead you into the fire and then laugh at your predicament. Do not let it happen to you. you are a child of Allah have faith in him who created you and who can help you and if he helps you no one can take it away from you. so put your trust in him, not on a mortal. All the nabi's had the same message and I am just saying what they have been saying all along you will not go to heaven because you are some far off cousin of moula Ali. you will go to heaven because of your faith in Allah for his mercy and being rightous.

[Jamali]

Brother Mumin,

If you are waiting for 'divine' intervention for this facade, then you are in for a long wait. From the way i see it, there are basically 2 choices:

1. Believe in Maula and do all what he says. If the Sabil is decided by the Amils and Bhaisahebs then go ahead and give it. Deep down in your heart the truth remains...Just because you questioned the Amil about the Sabil, I am sure he is not going to listen to you or to me. We are nobodies and unless the whole community demands a revision, nothing will happen. Try fighting it and you will be excommunicated.If you are married, you wife will miss the 'kitty parties and the functions', if you have grown up children, then they will miss getting married inside the community. You will be excommunicated and you will have a tough time with your own families. You know you cant do all this as you are afraid of your position in society so bottom line is do what they tell you to do.

2. The second choice is get out of this and learn to think and understand the fundamentals of religion and live by them. I being a reformist am happy with my life. I am not dictated by anyone what to pay or do. I dont consider myself less than a Bohri then i am. I can still believe in the Maula as a religious leader in terms of his "religious" teachings (His teachings of the Quran and nothing else!) but most importantly I believe in Almighty Allah which ironically the most staught believers of Maula dont realise; Maula himself prays to and bows down to Allah. Its really sad to note that the momineen listen so much to the Amils and the Bhaisahebs; they even listen and see Maula teaching them the basic fundamental belief of believing in Almighty Allah but instead of looking at the bigger picture end up in the issues of the Goondas. I am not saying Maula isnt to blame but the people or "momineen" are the ones who have brought all of this onto themselves.

Many reformists arent against the Maula. The people in the community know the bohri religion is commercialized but cant leave the community as our main problem is how we will be portrayed in society. The truth is a reformist still has a family,a name is society and still follows the religious teachings (majlis, lailatul Qadr, Moti raats, Moharram etc) but without the hassles of Amils and Bhaisahebs. Atleast as a reformist i dont have to bow down and touch someones feet and commit "Shirk".

Lastly what the momineen dont realise; the problem gets worst day by day. When your children see u behaving like this and when they are brainwashed from a young age, the royal family will continue such atrocities. Amils and Bhaisahebs are getting free money in the name of salaams from the community. Their children will definately take that path. Why work when others will work for you. The same will imply for the Royal family. With the amount of wealth they are receiving from the community, u think a miracle is going to happen and the next Dai will bring a stop to this??? Stop dreaming my fellow brothers and sisters. Look at Maulas sons and see them follow the same path. Infact with the current signs indicative of the modern world, the Bhendi Bazaar project would have been a brilliant idea of grabbing 90% of Indian Bohris wealth in terms of giving them better conditions. Imagine having given up all your land and property to the community in the name of modernization. If this project would have been successful, the same would have crisscrossed all over the world. Open your eyes and use your brains. Nothing is free in this world and dont sell yourself to these tricksters disguised as religious leaders. ALmighty Allah has given you a beautiful book of life, the Quran and the prophets have shown you the way to live through their examples. Our Prophets and Imams always lived simply, in the service of Almighty Allah. If they wanted, they could have built Golden thrones and preached from them but they remained to stay simple as a way to show the right path. Compare this to Maula...Look at his "golden throne" where he sits. The Prophets and Imams have always taught us to bow down only to Almighty Allah like they themselves and here we are bowing to someone who himself is bowing down to Allah! We claim we also believe in Allah and bow down to him. Agreed you do that but when you also bow down in front of the Bhaisahebs and Maula, what does it signify??? Ironical that Momineen claim that Almighty Allah is the one who is the giver and we should pray to him for guidance and blessings but we spend our whole life asking "Arzis" to Saifee Mahal to show us what we need to do in our daily life!!! If this is the case then when Do you ask Allah??

Bottom line you have been given a brain so make use of it. There will be always 2 schools of thought, for and against: The decision you choose will decide your destiny..However stop being a hypocrite doing something and then complaining. If its the Maulas path u want to take, then do it unconditionally!!! There shouldnt be any complains as you had a choice and you chose what u did. If they ask u to sell yourself do it unconditionally as remember it is your choice.

Likewise if you decide on being a reformist, then so be it. Dont blame the Bhaisahebs or Maulas actions and that of his followers. If possible be a good human being and show them how they can be better and helping them achieve their goals! Its all a matter of choice!!! Anyways my aim is not trying to be malicious but trying to help my fellow brothers and sisters in the community to understand the extent of the rot in the community and help overcome it. They cant fight alone but if others join then u can see progress. The way the community can join hands is if there is equality and if everyone undergoes the sufferings. Automatically as numbers increase the rebellion will rise and realisation will occur. Why should "Chamchas" of these goons get away with this Sabil crap while a small portion of the community is made to suffer??????

[mumin]

mr; jamali. i do not appose the person, i appose what is wrong. I concur with you. If people are so blinded then why 2.5 ,5 or 10%or 15 %. show all their income and let the kothar take all their income and make them their slaves working for the kothar and let the kothar give them houses to live and food and clothing for them and their children. The old ways are hard to break. Musa nabi bought all the mumineen from the bondage and slavery of firon, yet shaitan was successful in sending most of them back to firon.
if the mumin wants to follow the dictats of the clergy and is happy in slavery and moral degradation and corruption of their beloved children then they should go all out and be exploited to the fullest by the clergy.
the different madehs and recitation of ghano jeevo etc in the bohri miqats is just a feel good religion. nothing whatsoever to do with islam.
Imam Hussain stood on the sands of kerbala to give mumineen the freedom to worship the one Allah, on the last stroke Imam hussain bowed to that one Almighty Allah,but if the mumineen want to sit in their homes and be ruled by moawiya who also claimed to be a muslim leader of that time , then so be it.
mine is only to state the truths and open the eyes of summun, bukmun ummun fa hum la yar jaioon. May be by this writing one may ponder and see the wrongs of our culture, tradition, society and religion and may be that one may lead to one thousand and instead of copping out into progressives or forming other pockets of the same religion, the one culture and tradition is islamized with honesty and love for all.

[mumineen]

Last week, on one of the eves of the Eid-ul-Fitar, families who had NOT yet paid their Waajebaats, were urgently summoned by the Toronto/Mississauga Ontario Canada Amils or their sidekick chamchas, to go immediately to the respective Darulimaarats to pay up with "or else... warnings."

People from as far as St. Catharines and Hamilton (which are approximately 100 kms or so proximity). One of them was an old disabled widow living by herself in Hamilton. We understand that she had to take an expensive cab ride at night to reach the extortionsits to frantically to pay up, despite the khotharis knowing about her condition. There were also other victims from St. Catharines, Hamilton and other areas who had fallen preys to the cruel and inhuman extortion fatwas from the
so-called khidmatguzaars and ayaans during the Holy Month of Ramzaan - and after Ishaa at late night.

There is a limit to the greed and oppression. May Allah punish these inhuman brutes for their brutal acts on the gullible here on this earth and in aakhiraat..Ameen.

[mumin]

as I said. summum, bukmun, ummun fahum la yar jaoon. Allah has given you eyes to see, ears to hear and a sound mind. If you close them and want to be humiliated and walked upon by the kothari goondas then it is your choice. these goondas can threaten and jolt fear into you. This is the only weakness of humans that the shaitan relies on. Just think what in the world will happen if you paid your amount the next day or did not pay it because you were in debt. what can they do. They cannot beat her up for paying late. It is upto the individual. The more brave you are the more they will leave you alone. fear is the human weakness. overcome it. Be brave . As I said earlier, when the rasool started preaching islam the idol worshippers knowing that their income was in jeopardy resorted to the age old trick of bycotting the rasool and his family. At that time khadija sahiba was pregnant . do you think the rasool got scared or was there any fear on his face? it was just the opposite. He knew that sooner or later they would have to mend their ways ,because the right will always prevail. It may take a little patience,but that is all it takes.patience is avirtue and haste is the devils whip.

[SBM]

so bottom line is do what they tell you to do.

Br. Jamali
With this logic we should not be mourning the shadat of Imam Hussain and he and his family should have done what they were told to do....

[mumin]

radical religious extremism and terrorism is emerging from the despair of the poor mumineen betrayed by its clergy. abel and cain strategy. " am I my brother's keeper"
If I can by my writing change a few minds to look at reason, it would have paid off.
how many psychiatrists does one need to change a light bulb?
only one, but the light bulb must want to change.