Progressive's stand on the other Bohra sects

[Hussain_KSA]

Mutafa,

Alvi and Suleimani are not dawoodi boharas they are alavi bohras and suleimani bohras as they have different linage of duaats after 27 and 29th dai. We have nothing to do with them. Its true that they almost everything same like custom and traditions. Reformist are dawoodi bohras and would remain so. We don’t have any issue with nuss and we only want some reforms in administration and accountability.
Our stand is the same as mainstream dawoodi bohra’s stand on this issue.

[stranger]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed first. If it has, then maybe i haven't gone through the site in detail and it would be nice if someone can guide me to the correct links

We all know, by now, what the progressive's stand is on Dawoodi Bohras.

What i was wondering is what is the stand on Alavi and Sulaymani Bohras.

I'm curious because i have been reading about Alavi Bohra's and to be honest, have only just begun to scratch the tip of the iceberg, but it seems to me that they are not all that different from us at all, except that they broke of from us on the issue of nass.

So, coming back to the topic, i'd like to know.

Again, if this has been discussed, please point me in the right direction

Thats true. . .Alavis are very similar to dawoodi bohras in all the aspects..Religious and social.
but they are very minimal in numbers can say around 15,000-20,000 or so.
It would be interesting for you to know that we share commom shrines @ Ahemdabad, galiyakot & Vadodara.
for more info can visit : http://www.alavibohra.org

[aqs]

it is oft pointed out in discussions on this board that Saya and topi are of recent innovation and implemented in last 40 years after the Udaipur incident but its amusing to see Alavi bohras who have separated since a very very long time wear saya in their majlis and Topi as we do, even their woman folk wear same Rida as ours.

[anajmi]

Alavi Bohras clergy are like a jealous younger sibling of the kothar. They see kothar making money by implementing Sayo, Rida and baraat and hence they have introduced these tactics within the Alavi Bohras. They have now started preventing marriages and burial ceremonies if dues remain when a few years back they were pretty tolerant. So these changes have come about only recently in the Alavi Bohras.

[Kaka Akela]

by aqs on Tue May 03, 2011 11:50 am

it is oft pointed out in discussions on this board that Saya and topi are of recent innovation and implemented in last 40 years after the Udaipur incident but its amusing to see Alavi bohras who have separated since a very very long time wear saya in their majlis and Topi as we do, even their woman folk wear same Rida as ours.
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aqs:
Saya,kurta,topi, and dadhi are all new innovations (may be since last 40 years). I remember crowds in our faith wearing black topis, jinnah caps, rumi topi and sherwani and many other local attires etc. etc when I was growing up in India. Even in history books you will find doats wearing green kapdas at one time.
But now Dawoodi Bohras due to their sheer large numbers have become a bigger sibling(a role model) to the Alavi and Sulemani bohras. They watch malumaat.com and Zeininfo as well as we do and they pick up clues as to how to subjugate their own people like our Kotharis. They all trying to become" Mullahs on the Mainframe". So don't use them to tell us that STD is not a new thing.

[Biradar]

To see an example of how Alavis copy the Dawoodis, please see the two links I give below:

"On the Use of Translations of the Qur’an"
http://www.mumineen.org/archive/deen/quran/translate/

"Qur'an and the Authenticity of its Translation"
http://www.alavibohra.org/quran.htm

These are nearly identical. The funny thing is that exact same words are claimed to be said by the Dawoodi da'i and the Alavi da'i.

Here is what SMB is supposed to have said:

Aqa Mawla (TUS) has said (I have heard this myself, in London) words to this effect: “Mu’mineen! Recite the Qur’an daily. You may not understand much of what you recite, but you should recite it daily nevertheless. An alim would understand the Qur’an more, and one of higher ilm even more and so on until finally, the Imam (SA) – his very being is the Qur’an.”

Here is what the Alavi da'i is supposed to have said:

Huzoor-e-‘Aali (TUS) often says in his bayaan that "Mumineen! Recite the Qur'an. daily. You may not understand much of what you recite, but you should recite it to get its Barakaat daily nevertheless. An ‘alim would understand the Qur'an. more, and one of higher ‘ilm even more and so on until finally, the Imam (AS) - his very being is the Qur'an."

Not sure who copied who, but this is an amazing case of plagiarism.

[ghulam muhammed]

To see an example of how Alavis copy the Dawoodis

These are nearly identical. The funny thing is that exact same words are claimed to be said by the Dawoodi da'i and the Alavi da'i.

The Alvi and dawoodi bohra dais are not only similar with regard to their vayez/sayings but they are ditto even in acrtion. See the link below wherein the alvi dai is also licking the @@@se of Narendra Modi, the way dawoodi bohra dai did.

[ghulam muhammed]

The link to the above post :-

http://www.alavibohra.org/Huzoor%20meets%20CM.htm

[Biradar]

The Alvi and dawoodi bohra dais are not only similar with regard to their vayez/sayings but they are ditto even in acrtion. See the link below wherein the alvi dai is also licking the @@@se of Narendra Modi, the way dawoodi bohra dai did.

Yes, this is true, however, I think the Alavi dai is the one who does the copying, not wanting to be left behind. The Dawoodi dai, SMB, is immensely rich and hence his desire to hobnob with the tyrants of the world is not surprising. I wonder what the Alavi da'i gets in return for his pusillanimous behavior?

There are also many other fun things about both groups: for example both claim that their dai was proven correct in the court of the Mughals. As if the Mughals were the arbiters of their succession disputes! Anyway, the Alavi website is worth exploring.

[aqs]

aqs:
Saya,kurta,topi, and dadhi are all new innovations (may be since last 40 years). I remember crowds in our faith wearing black topis, jinnah caps, rumi topi and sherwani and many other local attires etc. etc when I was growing up in India. Even in history books you will find doats wearing green kapdas at one time.
But now Dawoodi Bohras due to their sheer large numbers have become a bigger sibling(a role model) to the Alavi and Sulemani bohras. They watch malumaat.com and Zeininfo as well as we do and they pick up clues as to how to subjugate their own people like our Kotharis. They all trying to become" Mullahs on the Mainframe". So don't use them to tell us that STD is not a new thing.

Kaka Akela,

Saya Kurta is not new but previously (50-60 years back)was only worn by clergy and now every one wears, Beard and topi (in different form) is a norm of DB for centuries. i dont know the history of Saya and when and where it started. Previous Duats used to wear a Rajisthani kind of angrakha which Syedna(tus) wears while delivering waez but these days he wears only Saya kurta and kasbi dupatta.

So saya topi dadhi(STD) is old for DB but their implementation for commoners is a new thing, now Progs will allege that this was done after the incident of Udaipur then its not totally true, DB's have always tried to have a different image then other Muslim Ummah and this was just a part to strengthen that image with total compliance to Share Mohammadi.

I agree with what you and others say for Alavi's, that they have copied us.

[aqs]

The Alvi and dawoodi bohra dais are not only similar with regard to their vayez/sayings but they are ditto even in acrtion. See the link below wherein the alvi dai is also licking the @@@se of Narendra Modi, the way dawoodi bohra dai did.

GM Bhai,
their is a minor diff, Modi came to us and Alavi Dai went to him.
and i am very sure you and other Progs would have criticized dai even if he had taken a hard stand against Modi and mumineen would have got hurt due to that.

Arent you the one who criticize Syedna(tus) for cursing Ayesha, but when Mumineen got hurt and Syedna had to apologize to save mumineen then you post the video on this website to display that Syedna(tus) committed a mistake because in you lexicon a person only apologizes when he commits a mistake very conveniently forgetting that a hard stand was affecting common mumineen.
Mubarak and Humsafar have agreed that Progs curse in their Masjid in moharram so why a different stand when its done by Syedna(tus).

Now imagine a 1000 times bigger retaliation by hindus in general and fundamentalist Hindus in particular against Mumineen in Gujarat if Syedna(tus) had taken a harder stand against Modi.

So what should be important ? Security of Mumineen or opposition to Modi.

[guy_sam2005]

it is oft pointed out in discussions on this board that Saya and topi are of recent innovation and implemented in last 40 years after the Udaipur incident but its amusing to see Alavi bohras who have separated since a very very long time wear saya in their majlis and Topi as we do, even their woman folk wear same Rida as ours.

Oh..then howcome we never heard of progressive allavi bohras?

[guy_sam2005]

Alavi Bohras clergy are like a jealous younger sibling of the kothar. They see kothar making money by implementing Sayo, Rida and baraat and hence they have introduced these tactics within the Alavi Bohras. They have now started preventing marriages and burial ceremonies if dues remain when a few years back they were pretty tolerant. So these changes have come about only recently in the Alavi Bohras.

ha ha ha ha...loser...come up with somethin better....

[stranger]

The Alvi and dawoodi bohra dais are not only similar with regard to their vayez/sayings but they are ditto even in acrtion. See the link below wherein the alvi dai is also licking the @@@se of Narendra Modi, the way dawoodi bohra dai did.

GM Bhai,
their is a minor diff, Modi came to us and Alavi Dai went to him.
and i am very sure you and other Progs would have criticized dai even if he had taken a hard stand against Modi and mumineen would have got hurt due to that.

Arent you the one who criticize Syedna(tus) for cursing Ayesha, but when Mumineen got hurt and Syedna had to apologize to save mumineen then you post the video on this website to display that Syedna(tus) committed a mistake because in you lexicon a person only apologizes when he commits a mistake very conveniently forgetting that a hard stand was affecting common mumineen.
Mubarak and Humsafar have agreed that Progs curse in their Masjid in moharram so why a different stand when its done by Syedna(tus).

Now imagine a 1000 times bigger retaliation by hindus in general and fundamentalist Hindus in particular against Mumineen in Gujarat if Syedna(tus) had taken a harder stand against Modi.

So what should be important ? Security of Mumineen or opposition to Modi.

very well said aqs. . . .They are really hypocrites.

[ANA BOHRI]

Now imagine a 1000 times bigger retaliation by hindus in general and fundamentalist Hindus in particular against Mumineen in Gujarat if Syedna(tus) had taken a harder stand against Modi.

So what should be important? Security of Mumineen or opposition to Modi

Bro Aqs

What if Muslim brothers who lost their relatives take violent action against Bohris when they see that we people are welcoming the butcher of Muslims…… in this case who should be blamed?

If we can not condemn the act of a butcher why do we really need to facilitate him? if we are so concerned about the security of bohris then better to stay away then hurting the feelings of our Muslim brothers.

[aqs]

Now imagine a 1000 times bigger retaliation by hindus in general and fundamentalist Hindus in particular against Mumineen in Gujarat if Syedna(tus) had taken a harder stand against Modi.

So what should be important? Security of Mumineen or opposition to Modi

Bro Aqs

What if Muslim brothers who lost their relatives take violent action against Bohris when they see that we people are welcoming the butcher of Muslims…… in this case who should be blamed?

If we can not condemn the act of a butcher why do we really need to facilitate him? if we are so concerned about the security of bohris then better to stay away then hurting the feelings of our Muslim brothers.

Bro Ana Bohri,

If Muslims had to take action they would have taken against the Hindus who hurt them, DB's are a minuscule community who is trying hard to prosper in a very hostile environment for Muslims.
It looks like we have ditched Muslims in their time of distress but when you see the history we have always been at the receiving hand of hatred from Muslims, Muslims in general have never treated us as their brothers in faith, and the contempt you see for Muslims in generaly in DB's is not recent but has developed after centuries of persecution. i think stranger or Biradar few days back had put a very nice point that whenever Muslims have been in absolute power they have persecuted us.

[stranger]

Hmmm....

Ok, another question.

Do we go to each others roza? i saw a couple of pics where people looked liked they were dawoodi bohra!

Or would it have been the ziyaraat of one of the earlier dai's who were common to both sub sects?

First of all, we dressed exactly similar. if you dont know personaly u cant even distinguish between both.

Yes. we do go to each other roza ( offcourse to those, which are common between both the sect's belief).

For example, The first four dai on india are common for dawoodi and alavi :
25. Syedna Jalal Shamshuddin Bin Hasan
Ahemdabad ,India
26. Syedna Dawood Bin Ajabshah
Ahemdabad ,India
27. Syedna Dawood Bin Qutubshah
Ahemdabad ,India
28. Syedna Sheikh Aadam Safiuddin
Ahemdabad ,India
so, they are frequent visitors in Ahembadad, other common dargaah are at Vadodara and Galiyakot.
Infact, At Galiyakot, with all respect we are accomodating them..they are staying in our dargaah premise itself & invited for niyaaz in the same way we do. ( in Ahemdabad and vadodara they have their own Musafirkhana).
Alavi bohras are even welcome to join our hajj, umra and ziyarat tour for karbala and etc and they do join us.

[Biradar]

I already told you that I have been doing a little bit of reading but even then, my question was more to understand if do they suffer from the same evils of corruption that we do (mind you, I am not, even for once, denying that we do not have our problem of corruption)

The other reason I was asking is that because in some pics, they seem to be wearing the same type of topi as ours although the site did not clarify how similar were they to our topis.

Why can't you do more reading and enlighten all of us? The same resources that are available to you are available to everyone else on this forum. How about contributing in a positive way for once? Also, please do not bitch about the progressives bitching unless you stop doing it yourself.

To get you started, you should know that the Alavi's are a very small group. If you want to read on how the Dawoodi-Alavi split occurred you can read both the Alavi and the Dawoodi version. The Alavi version is on their website. The Dawoodi version is described in a recent issue of Nasim-e-Sahar. In fact, the article is written in English in case you do not read Gujrathi or Dawat-ni-Zaban fluently. There is also an article in the very recent book "A Modern History of the Ismailis: Continuity and Change in a Muslim Community" in which the Alavis are described. There is a Gujrathi translation of this article on the Alavi site if you wish to read it and do not have access to the book.

The corruption in the present dawaat administration is because of the enormous amount of wealth they have accumulated. Hundreds or even thousands of family members of the Sayedna are supported off community funds. I have seen so-called bhaisahebs in the US who do not nothing all day but live a good life off community money. The whole patronizing tyrants is to keep this financial empire in place and power over the bohras intact. Alavis do not yet seem to have this problem yet due to their small size and lesser wealth.

The Alavi's follow the da'is upto S. Shaikh Adam Safiuddin. Their early duats were buried close to S. Safiuddin but their graves were destroyed by our dawaat when the Ahmedabad rozas were renovated a few years ago. The Alavis still come to Ahmedabad and visit the location of these graves (now demolished).

Please learn to contribute positively. Read and then lets learn together. Do not ask a question and expect someone will just give you the answers.

[Muslim First]

Biradar

The Alavi's follow the da'is upto S. Shaikh Adam Safiuddin. Their early duats were buried close to S. Safiuddin but their graves were destroyed by our dawaat when the Ahmedabad rozas were renovated a few years ago.

This cannot be true. DB Hidu-Muslims respect and worship Rozas. They cannot do same thing and accuse Wahabis of destroying Rozas. That will be hypocritical thing to do.

[ghulam muhammed]

their is a minor diff, Modi came to us and Alavi Dai went to him.

Bro aqs,

Do you honestly believe that Modi "came to us" and was not "called" or "invited" by us, i.e. by the PR dept of kothar ? Remember that a shawl and a cheque of more then Rs.One crore didnt appear in the dai's hand miraculously at the spur of the moment (I know that you dont believe in satya sai baba and hence wouldnt like to equate the dai with him).

i am very sure you and other Progs would have criticized dai even if he had taken a hard stand against Modi and mumineen would have got hurt due to that.

I cant speak for others but atleast I would have appreciated if the dai would have taken a hard stand on modi, the butcher of muslims because it would have displayed atleast some concern for the Muslim Ummah. Regarding bohras getting hurt in case of this hard stand, arent you aware that innumerable bohras had already suffered immensely due to modi's genocide on them. Also many sunni ulemas from different sects have criticised modi and even filed cases against his men but was there a significant retaliation due to this ?

Arent you the one who criticize Syedna(tus) for cursing Ayesha, but when Mumineen got hurt and Syedna had to apologize to save mumineen then you post the video on this website to display that Syedna(tus) committed a mistake because in you lexicon a person only apologizes when he commits a mistake very conveniently forgetting that a hard stand was affecting common mumineen.

Yes, I criticize the dai or anyone who speaks against ummul mumineen or the noble sahabas and for which I, like many others have reasons for it which have been discussed at length on this forum which may or may not suit you or people with biased mentality who accept any distortion of islamic history due to the blind following and cult worship. And as you say that the dai made a mistake for which he apologised to save bohras (although much damage had already been done) then where does your concept of the dai being infallible lie ?

So what should be important ? Security of Mumineen or opposition to Modi.

The MOST important thing, especially for a spiritual leader is.... HAQ. I dont need to remind you about the vast sacrifices in the battle of karbala for Haq.

[ghulam muhammed]

The quotes on the above post have been wrongly attributed to Bro.stranger, it should be read as " Bro aqs wrote".

[aqs]

Bro aqs,

Do you honestly believe that Modi "came to us" and was not "called" or "invited" by us, i.e. by the PR dept of kothar ? Remember that a shawl and a cheque of more then Rs.One crore didnt appear in the dai's hand miraculously at the spur of the moment (I know that you dont believe in satya sai baba and hence wouldnt like to equate the dai with him).

Whatever report i have got is that it was PR activity from Modi and we obliged readily. i have stated it earlier also that i have my reservations on this whole felicitation thing but when we consider security of Mumineen residing their it looks a wise decision.

I cant speak for others but atleast I would have appreciated if the dai would have taken a hard stand on modi, the butcher of muslims because it would have displayed atleast some concern for the Muslim Ummah. Regarding bohras getting hurt in case of this hard stand, arent you aware that innumerable bohras had already suffered immensely due to modi's genocide on them. Also many sunni ulemas from different sects have criticised modi and even filed cases against his men but was there a significant retaliation due to this ?

Please visit Gujarat and ask local Muslims how they are sidelined in each and every thing, they dont get equal employment opportunity, their kids cant go to proper schools, they dont get proper medical care in their area, sanitation is poor and list goes on and on.
even a voice is heard from Muslims that its time to move on. And just for your information after Feb2002 Syedna(tus) criticized Modi in Indore Ashara, i dont find any mention of it on this website or any article written by progs. and Syedna didnt hosted Modi exactly after the pogram but gave him a cold shoulder for few years and after continuous requests from him he was accorded a meeting.
So Syedna(tus) did what other Muslims will eventually do, make peace with him.

Yes, I criticize the dai or anyone who speaks against ummul mumineen or the noble sahabas and for which I, like many others have reasons for it which have been discussed at length on this forum which may or may not suit you or people with biased mentality who accept any distortion of islamic history due to the blind following and cult worship. And as you say that the dai made a mistake for which he apologised to save bohras (although much damage had already been done) then where does your concept of the dai being infallible lie ?

my comment was more of for Progressives who curse your Ummul Mumineen and then do a double talk when it pertains to Syedna(tus), We differ in our belief and i dont want to prolong it into another Shia sunni debate

The MOST important thing, especially for a spiritual leader is.... HAQ. I dont need to remind you about the vast sacrifices in the battle of karbala for Haq.

for us he was on haq when he cursed ayesha and he is again on haq when he mended fence with Modi. Nothing can alter our faith in him.

[Conscíous]

Can someone tell me if Syedna has EVER stood up (Shown some BRAVERY) or speak against something or someone without submitting later ? When the danish newspaper published cartoons, I don't remember him saying anything.. In fact, I have never heard him say or do anything which would be consider as BRAVERY.. He has never fought in a battle, don't no about if he has ever climbed a mountain with his own two feet or done anything mind blowing or worth mentioning.. Is it safe to call the Syedna Saheb as a coward??

[profastian]

Can someone tell me if Syedna has EVER stood up (Shown some BRAVERY) or speak against something or someone without submitting later ? When the danish newspaper published cartoons, I don't remember him saying anything.. In fact, I have never heard him say or do anything which would be consider as BRAVERY.. He has never fought in a battle, don't no about if he has ever climbed a mountain with his own two feet or done anything mind blowing or worth mentioning.. Is it safe to call the Syedna Saheb as a coward??

What about you? Have u done anything worthwhile? Is it safe to call you a coward??

[Conscíous]

I have never glorified my self like him or called myself a leader & a true follower of Imam Hussain (R.A), and do the opposite!! A great leader is one who stands up not ONLY for his people, but for ever humankind.. A great leader actions speaks louder then his words.. And you guys are talking about Modi like he controls India & the rest of the world.. Your a bunch of cowards.. all of you.. and you know very well, what I think of your/our women too.. priceless

[stranger]

I have never glorified my self like him or called myself a leader & a true follower of Imam Hussain (R.A), and do the opposite!! A great leader is one who stands up not ONLY for his people, but for ever humankind.. A great leader actions speaks louder then his words.. And you guys are talking about Modi like he controls India & the rest of the world.. Your a bunch of cowards.. all of you.. and you know very well, what I think of your/our women too.. priceless

and maximum of you, who are cursing syedna and DB's day and night, are from mainstream DB. you know v.well.
What shall we think of you ?
Traitors : Jahan rehte hai aur Jis thaali mai khaate hain, ussi mai chhed karte hai !!!

[Conscíous]

I don't ever remember, me cursing syedna saheb.. But, It's people like you and those fattie, goat faced, bunch of coward slaves, whom love to curse.. I'm nothing like you guys & don't ever want to be.. I hardly speak Gujarati or that stupid new language of your. I don't even look like a bohra nor do I dress like one & the best part is that, You'll never able to stop my burial

[Conscíous]

Can someone tell me if Syedna saheb has EVER stood up (Shown some BRAVERY) and spoken against something or someone without submitting later ?

[Biradar]

but that still did not answer my question about the stand that progs have on alavi bohra's.

The progressive stand on Alavis is the same as the orthodox. The official progressive movement is not about established doctrine. Hope that answers your question.

[ghulam muhammed]

Profastian said..He never critized Ummul mumineen (Khatija), in fact shows immense reverence to her.

Cant blame you for the pulp in your head which once was a normal human brain before it was reduced to such due to the constant hammering in vayez. Even an ordinary muslim or for that matter even a non-muslim knows the meaning of the word "ummul mumineen" which is "mother of the believers" and this title is given to ALL the wives of our Prophet (s.a.w.) and whether you or any moron or any insignificant creature likes it or not but the fact remains that Hazrat Ayesha (r.a.) was one of the wives of Prophet (s.a.w.) by virtue of which she was ummul mumineen. Your venomous outbursts cannot change this fact, so go and burn in jealousy.

Profastian said..Oh I see you are talking about the b-t-h Aisha, but a b-t-h will always be a b-t-h. Calling a b-t-h a b-t-h is not criticizing her is it?

A b-s-a-d like you who has brains in the balls instead of head and who speaks from his backside and farts from the mouth can go on blabbering as it no way effects the esteem position of ummul mumineens in the eyes of Allah (swt).
Now just for argument sake, suppose if your dai's wife was of a loose character then would you and other abdes shower lanats on her and call her a bitch. The answer is a simple NO. The reason :- "Aae to huzur-e-ala na bairo chhe ane ehni masliyat to faqat dai jaane" but in the case of Prophet (s.a.w.) the same criteria would not apply. This shows the esteemed positions of the dai as compared to even Prophet (s.a.w.). No wonder this is a cult which has strayed away from Islam and established a separate religion much like the bahais and ahmediyas but all along claiming that they follow Islam. The real hypocrites and munafiqeens.