State your belief

[porus]

PORUS
You said

It so turned out that the Imam disappeared without trace and Hurrat al-Malika, not the Imam, appointed Dai al-Mutlaq to continue calling people to accept the authority of the missing Imam.

This is INCORRECT, according to True Dawoodi Bohra Beliefs. (Also clarified by Profastian)
If you read Dawoodi Bohra Taiyibi texts, it refutes this. The Duat were appointed by the Imam himself. Those who believe otherwise are not following the True Dawoodi Bohra sect.

Yes, my quote is incorrect but only according to the beliefs of Dawoodi Bohras. Beliefs are not Truth. You should by now know that I am not inclined to accept 'history' as related by Bohra divines as 'true' as they have an axe to grind and especially as they mix fact and myth in their version of history.

I look at historical evidence as dug out by scholars of repute in Universities throughout the world who we hope are a lot less biased in favor of any one particular narration. That leads me to believe that no Imam appointed Dhuaib bin Musa as the first Dai al-Mutlaq. There were no Duaat Mutlaqeen in Imams' time. There were Dais of course and indeed they were appointed by Imams.

Imam al-Tayyib, according to scholars, was an infant and perhaps no more than a toddler when he disappeared in circumstances which followed dog's dinner of events leading to murder of Imam Aamir. Thus you must produce evidence that the post of Dai al-Mutlaq was created by Imam Aamir or his father or grandfather before him and that they nominated Dhuaib bin Musa to be the first occupant of the post. No myth please.

Until you do produce that evidence I will continue to believe that the post of Dai al-Mutlaq was created by Hurrat al-Malika and none of the Imams had any knowledge of it.

[Adam]

PORUS
You may stand by your beliefs, as we will stand by our, in accordance to texts that we follow. Again, I respect the fact that you have made your ideology ad beliefs clear.

My second, and more important issue, which I raised earlier, is, why are the PROGGIES silent on this? Why aren't they defending their own faith?

[anajmi]

If the proggies are silent, then who have you been responding to you? They are not silent, they have been very vocal. A progressive is probably smart to question everyone starting from the Dai and going up. Progressives have questioned even the Prophet (saw) and Allah himself. The reason they are not defending it is because they have no faith in it. And they have no faith in it because of the deeds of the current Dai and his goons.

[Ala maqaam]

PROGS ARE DESTINED TO HELL,THEY ARE JUST USING SYEDNA NAME AS AN EXCUSE,THERE IS NO REASON TO LEAVE IMAAN ON ALLAH AND MUHAMMED IF SOME INDIVIDUAL IS NOT PERFORMING HIS DUTY.

PROGS REPENT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AND START OBEYING ISLAAM,GIVING EXCUSE THAT SYEDNA IS WRONG WONT SAVE U FROM HELL FIRE.

[profastian]

My second, and more important issue, which I raised earlier, is, why are the PROGGIES silent on this? Why aren't they defending their own faith?

Adam, I do not think that our faith needs any defending or we need to make our position clear. They can think we are mushriks, or kafirs, or whatever, that is their choice and right and it does not effect us one iota. I for one come here just to pass the time and make small talk. I never come here with the intention to clear any doubts or learn something(as you know that the best place to learn is the house of Ahl-e-Bait). I also do hope that some of the things I am (hopefully) able to clear about our faith through my posts, helps other bohras who have some doubts, and they are able to clear them. But our faith is what it is, and we do not need to be defensive or apologetic about it.

[Adam]

PROFASTIAN
Agreed. Correct.
I/We don't need their support. Was just trying to clarify the Progs double standards and cowardice.

[Hussain_KSA]

It is considered that Islam was always around since the day Adam was created and that there have always been Dais who were inviting people to true faith of Islam.

There is a mythological tradition among Ismailies which describes daawat before the fall of Adam which existed both in the real world and on cosmic plane, the so-called Alam-e-Ibdaa.

In Alam-e-ibda, Adam is called Adam Ruhani and his fall is due to an attempt to eat from the forbidden tree in paradise which represented Aql Awwal. His fall was due his desire to attaining equality with Aql awwal.

In the real world, the 'the tree in paradise' represented 'ilm haqiqi', the Truth. Adam's eating from the tree means that he, Adam, divulged ilm to Iblis who tricked Adam into believing that he was an adept qualified to learn it. Adam was punished by making him lose the ilm which Allah had taught him until he repented and was made a Prophet. Iblis, however, used the ilm to create fitnat among progeny of Adam and will continue that work till eternity.

upThe question is why was Iblis in this 'paradise' with Adam when he was banished? The reason is that Iblis was actually a Dai of some distinction but his knowledge was lost due to his disobedience and rebellion. That is the real meaning of banishment. However he used his arsenal of tricks to learn some of the ilm back from Adam.

So, in the haqaiq drama, there is a mention of Dai before appointment of Adam as the first Prophet and this is what an abde might be referring to when he says Dai existed before the prophet.

http://www.amaana.org/ikhwan/bernard.html

Brother Pours,

I have forwerded you book written by sydena Ali bin Waleed "Mubda wal Maa'd" it might help you to understand this thoery in a better way. Please confirm the reiept. Regards.

[porus]

Brother Pours,

I have forwerded you book written by sydena Ali bin Waleed "Mubda wal Maa'd" it might help you to understand this thoery in a better way. Please confirm the reiept. Regards.

As always, I am eternally grateful to you for forwarding me deeni kutub. You have been instrumental in enhancing my education. This particular book would be a very interesting reading and I look forward to receiving it. As of this writing, I have not received it. Thank you.

[profastian]

There is a mythological tradition among Ismailies which describes daawat before the fall of Adam which existed both in the real world and on cosmic plane, the so-called Alam-e-Ibdaa.

In Alam-e-ibda, Adam is called Adam Ruhani and his fall is due to an attempt to eat from the forbidden tree in paradise which represented Aql Awwal. His fall was due his desire to attaining equality with Aql awwal.

In the real world, the 'the tree in paradise' represented 'ilm haqiqi', the Truth. Adam's eating from the tree means that he, Adam, divulged ilm to Iblis who tricked Adam into believing that he was an adept qualified to learn it. Adam was punished by making him lose the ilm which Allah had taught him until he repented and was made a Prophet. Iblis, however, used the ilm to create fitnat among progeny of Adam and will continue that work till eternity.

upThe question is why was Iblis in this 'paradise' with Adam when he was banished? The reason is that Iblis was actually a Dai of some distinction but his knowledge was lost due to his disobedience and rebellion. That is the real meaning of banishment. However he used his arsenal of tricks to learn some of the ilm back from Adam.

So, in the haqaiq drama, there is a mention of Dai before appointment of Adam as the first Prophet and this is what an abde might be referring to when he says Dai existed before the prophet.

http://www.amaana.org/ikhwan/bernard.html

Brother Pours,

I have forwerded you book written by sydena Ali bin Waleed "Mubda wal Maa'd" it might help you to understand this thoery in a better way. Please confirm the reiept. Regards.

Thievery is ethical now for the proggies too. This book belongs to be Fatimi Dawat, not your personal property to forward it to whoever you want.

[Ala maqaam]

I dont think any thing wrong in spreading knowledge,syedna Ali bin waleed wrote that book so people migt get the message not just to keep in some jamiaa bunker where it will be locked up,and only few individual who thinks they are almighty GOD have rights to read it.

I support every kind of spread of knowledge,infact I like the way progs are translating it and putting it for general public.


I AM READY TO CONTRIBUTE FINANCIALLY FOR ANY SUCH PROJECT

[porus]

PORUS
You may stand by your beliefs, as we will stand by our, in accordance to texts that we follow. Again, I respect the fact that you have made your ideology ad beliefs clear.

My second, and more important issue, which I raised earlier, is, why are the PROGGIES silent on this? Why aren't they defending their own faith?

Adam,

As far as I am concerned, It is not so much an attack on faith; it is more a challenge for knowledgeable and intellectual devotees of Sayedna to explain what are viewed, by me at least, as religious 'deviations' and administrative malpractices in the 'faith' in which I have grown up.

You have made valiant attempts at explaining them and I respect you for that but I am not convinced by your arguments. I will readily agree with you once you identify an error in my thinking like you did concerning the translation of Sayedna's rendition of Farazdaq's poem.

Some of the things regarding faith that you have not convinced me are your stand on:

1 Sajda to other than Allah
2. Infallibility of Imams from Zain al-Abideen to al-Tayyib and infallibility of Duaat Mutlaqeen
3. The post of Dai al-Mutlaq having been created by Imams
4. Lack of accountability of funds collected by the Aamil for the Dai

Other non-religious activities indulged in by the Dai are killing defenseless wildlife for pleasure when these creatures are not attacking humans, maatam all the time, and tacit support for Female Genital Mutilation.

Your demand for defense of these views and activities is, frankly, ludicrous and Proggis rightly ought not to defend them.

I also find your defense hollow. I have said that deen should be defended, in the final analysis, with reference to the Quran. However, you want to defend your deen on the basis of deeni books written by fallible authors and views of Dais you accept unquestioningly, including their interpretation of the Quran. I will challenge you on this as well as I challenged Sayedna Taher Saifuddin's interpretation of ayat 36:12.

Proggies are not against faith as outlined in the Quran and we are having an open discussion on what that faith is. As regards defense of that faith from Shia point of view you will not find me wanting. I have vigorously defended it against the likes of anajmi and Muslim First and you will see evidence of it in my arguments with them on this forum.

You remember I quoted a Scientology blog in which it is stated that Scientologists consider ideas of L. Ron Hubbard as sacrosanct no matter how much they go against reason. They have their own mythology to defend. They should be defending their church on the basis of the Bible but they believe their faith alone is true and their mythology has many similarities with Bohra haqaiq. Not in terms of beliefs but in terms of structure.

[Hussain_KSA]

is ethical now for the proggies too. This book belongs to be Fatimi Dawat, not your personal property to forward it to whoever you want.

Fatimi Dawat is not property of you or Kothar. You people are just frog of well. All the books are available and even Kothar has bought some books from the Market. If you see the books Amils are holding (if he give you raza) you will find the address of priniting press of Bierut on it. Many people including abdes got the copies of some books from me and I won't mind forwarding it to whomever ask me. At least few people will be able to understand the true religion. By the way I have donated few books to Jamia Saifia too.

[porus]

Brother Pours,

I have forwerded you book written by sydena Ali bin Waleed "Mubda wal Maa'd" it might help you to understand this thoery in a better way. Please confirm the reiept. Regards.

As always, I am eternally grateful to you for forwarding me deeni kutub. You have been instrumental in enhancing my education. This particular book would be a very interesting reading and I look forward to receiving it. As of this writing, I have not received it. Thank you.

الأخ حسين

أنا تَواً إستلمتُ الكتابَ. شكراً جزيلا

[Adam]

I dont think any thing wrong in spreading knowledge,syedna Ali bin waleed wrote that book so people migt get the message not just to keep in some jamiaa bunker where it will be locked up,and only few individual who thinks they are almighty GOD have rights to read it.

I support every kind of spread of knowledge,infact I like the way progs are translating it and putting it for general public.

Well, If you actually read this particular books, as well as other Fatimid/Ismaili texts, the author has strictly commanded the reader not to share the information in the books without "permission".
So your cause for "spreading knowledge" your own will is actually wrong, and disrespectful to the writer himself. At least respect his wishes. It was to be revealed through a system.

PORUS
You answers, I had PMd you quite a long time back.

[anajmi]

Well, If you actually read this particular books, as well as other Fatimid/Ismaili texts, the author has strictly commanded the reader not to share the information in the books without "permission".

Knowledge that is not to be shared is knowledge that doesn't deserve to be shared.

The prophet (saw) has said to all those who believe in him - convery my message even if it is just one ayah.

Brother Hussain,

Would you be kind enough to send me a copy of the book too?

[Humsafar]

Adam, I do not think that our faith needs any defending or we need to make our position clear.

That's not ture. You and your ilk have been doing nothing but defending your own invented "brand" of faith all the time. The point is not you don't need to defend it, but that you can't. You all have tried your damndest but have always come up short, and end up hiding behind Taawil and Baatin and rightful leader and other such excuses. And when none of your tricks worked, in recent weeks you abdes have begun to pile up upon reformists for not defending the Dawoodi Bohra faith enough. Well, it might come as news to you that we have been defending - in fact the whole reform movement is the defence of - the dawoodi bohra faith against the onslaught of the mafia clergy. The reformists' faith in our Mustalian/Tayyebi doctrine remains firm and unshaken. It was never in question and needs no defence from us. It is you abdes - the apologists of the mafia clergy - in order to protect your masters create confusion and discord by calling our faith into question.

Thievery is ethical now for the proggies too. This book belongs to be Fatimi Dawat, not your personal property to forward it to whoever you want.

Too? That means you accept that your masters are thieves and it is ethical for them to thieve. It is quite rich that the mafia clergy that has been robbing the community blind should have qualms about the "thievery" of knowledge. Why? Because all the secrets will be out? That the people will know how you have been distorting the deen to keep abdes like you continue bleating in ignorance. Not only that, you also need "permission" to spread the knowledge! Wow. Another proof of that this Dawat is a cult.

[Adam]

HUMSAFAR
You're still replying to the thread but dodging my answer, for the 8th time if i'm not mistaken?

WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF/SECT OF ISLAM YOU FOLLOW?
WHO IS YOUR PHYSICAL LEADER TODAY?
AS A MUSLIM, DO YOU PRAY NAMAAZ? WHO LEADS YOUR NAMAAZ? AND WHY HIM/HER?

Just to give you a hint, or an idea, you also said:

The reformists' faith in our Mustalian/Tayyebi doctrine

PS : About the defense, I think Profastian meant, we didn't need defense from the Proggies. I'm guessing.

[/color]

[Adam]

Also, if the Proggy belief remained UNSHAKEN.
How come No proggy refutes what:
Anajmi says about Imam Husain?
Porus said about Moulatena Hurratul Maleka?
(I'm not sure who) said that Syedna Qazi Noman invented many things, and didn't believe in what he said?

These are just a few examples. Where I have personally answered, being an Abde. But there was total silence from the Proggy side. Isn't that your Mustali/Tayyibi belief?

Your statement:

Not only that, you also need "permission" to spread the knowledge! Wow. Another proof of that this Dawat is a cult.

Shows your lack of knowledge. If you have read those books, or even a slightest idea of arabic, you would see the words of the writer and about the "permission". So you should do your homework first.

But before that. Please answer my famous simple questions.

[anajmi]

How come No proggy refutes what:
Anajmi says about Imam Husain?

And what does Anajmi say about Imam Husain?

(I'm not sure who) said that Syedna Qazi Noman invented many things, and didn't believe in what he said?

I have said that a few times on this board. Qazi Noman is the primary person responsible for the spread of Imam worship which has led to Dai worship.

[Hussain_KSA]

Well, If you actually read this particular books, as well as other Fatimid/Ismaili texts, the author has strictly commanded the reader not to share the information in the books without "permission".

Knowledge that is not to be shared is knowledge that doesn't deserve to be shared.

The prophet (saw) has said to all those who believe in him - convery my message even if it is just one ayah.

Brother Hussain,

Would you be kind enough to send me a copy of the book too?

Brother Anajmi,

I would love to send you the book but all the books I have are in Arabic language as Ismaili/fatimi books are originally written in Arabic language. Please let me know by pm if you still need the book.

You should also read a book by Jona blank ( THe Mullas in Mainframe) which is written under kothar patronage but it contains good information. I can send you the pdf version by email.

Regards.

[Conscíous]

Bro Hussain_KSA,
Is that offer only for brother anajmi ??

[Hussain_KSA]

Bro Hussain_KSA,
Is that offer only for brother anajmi ??

No sir,

This is for all without raza

Regards

[Ala maqaam]

I remember when i was 18 and i wanted to buy nahjul balagah while we were in iraaq and my dad didnt let me buy coz he thought its without raza and not authenticate

ROFL now after 9 years i understood all books are taken from the same source and merely any raza is required,thankfully now my library is full of islaamic books need not to say with raza of Allah subhanu......

[anajmi]

Br Hussain,

I have been learning the Arabic language and reading Arabic books would help. Although I do have the Quran, but I would still like to give it a shot. And I would also appreciate the mullahs on the mainframe pdf.

[DMY]

Br Hussain.

I would like the copy of MOTM...if you can...

Thanks

[Hussain_KSA]

Brother Anajmi, Boom, DMY

Please pm me your emails (confidiantiality guaranteed) or creat a fake one in order to send you the books. I also have books like nahjul Balagha in english and other Islamic books, tafseer, hadiths if any one intrested. This is just a try to spread knowledge.

I would also request all the person who already got some books from me to study and share their view, translation and comments on this board in order to spread the knowledge as they can share those topics too which is not being tought in Sabaks or the common mumin can not access to that knowledge.

Regards

[Hussain_KSA]

Br Hussain,

I have been learning the Arabic language and reading Arabic books would help. Although I do have the Quran, but I would still like to give it a shot. And I would also appreciate the mullahs on the mainframe pdf.

Brotehr Anajmi

Quran is enough for any humanbeing in all aspect of life. However comparative study of other books too help you to get your Iman strongrest. Forget about the tafseer and details, I think if a muslim read quran with meaning (only translation in his/her own mother tounge which is available in market or I am ready to provide if some one like) will be able to understand the massage of God.

May Allah give you more energy and wisdom to learn Arabic language. Ameen

Regards

[Conscíous]

I would also request all the person who already got some books from me to study and share their view, translation and comments on this board.

Bro Hussain,
What a great idea and Inshallah, I'll try to participate.. You should create a thread about this,,. I'm sure, there are also others whom are interested.. I'll PM you my email..

Thanks..

[ghulam muhammed]

I remember when i was 18 and i wanted to buy nahjul balagah while we were in iraaq and my dad didnt let me buy coz he thought its without raza and not authenticate

ROFL now after 9 years i understood all books are taken from the same source and merely any raza is required,thankfully now my library is full of islaamic books need not to say with raza of Allah subhanu......

I recollect an incident during my teens when I used to regularly recite "Naad-e-Ali" and once when an amil from badri mahal visited my house he reprimanded me for reading the same. He strictly instructed me not to recite the dua or any other dua normally recited by shia/sunni without the explicit raza of an authorised bohra amil.

[Muslim First]

I remember when i was 18 and i wanted to buy nahjul balagah while we were in iraaq and my dad didnt let me buy coz he thought its without raza and not authenticate

ROFL now after 9 years i understood all books are taken from the same source and merely any raza is required,thankfully now my library is full of islaamic books need not to say with raza of Allah subhanu......

Brother upar ka Aadha Maqaam Khali;

Do you ever read them? It looks like you have not read any of them.