Practices in Bohra Community

[humanbeing]

I have come across some practices in our community, my source is a common hearsay / advise usually from elders. Such practices have smack of superstition. My information on this practices are from towns & villages in Rajasthan, MPs or Gujarat.

Black is bad : one shall avoid wearing black shirts, t shirts, tops or ridas.

5 Mangli : A month with 5 Tuesdays are a bad omen for singles between 18 – 25 years (both genders), to wad off evil influence one shall do sadaqa on every Tuesday.

Pregnancy Black Thread (kaalo dhaago) : A black thread is tied around the waist of the women to ensure safety for both mother and baby.

Neem baath for Matajima : A bath in neem leaves water to cure or purify a person from Chicken Pox (Matajima). It is also a hearsay that Matajima bestows beauty on the person who is infected once in the lifetime.

Nazar Utarvu with a Water Lota : Kids before misaak when they fall ill and are moody made to sit at the doorstep of a room and the elder lady (granny, mom or aunty) circles a water filled Lota around the head of that kid 3 or 7 times reciting some duaa (may be salwaat or sura ).

Kaatho Peetvo : During wedding events, the mama of Dulhan ties a papaya draped in red cloth over the entrance door. While women of the house crush turmeric and other herbs to make a beauty lotion for the Peethi ceremony.

Faal Charaavu : Roza in Galiyakot and Burhanpur has an office outside the main Mausoleum giving away metal (silver or stainless steel) shapes of a human, palm, house, leaf for a pledged (minnat) amount. That article is then placed on the turbat with the wish / desire / minnat of the seeker.

Faal Dekhvu : A person in dilemma of choice or suffering from prolonged misfortune or seeking guidance for future actions, goes to the raza na saheb and requests him to see faal for him. The raza na saheb recites some prayers and opens a random page of Quran and reads the Ayaahs on the page, interprets them to provide suggestion / solution to the seeker.

[SBM]

Add to above
Why HING (a seasoning used in food) is not allowed in Bohras
Why we do not say Asalam U Alekum instead we use Baad Salaam Jameel or Kem Choo?

[mustafanalwalla]

I have come across some practices in our community, my source is a common hearsay / advise usually from elders. Such practices have smack of superstition. My information on this practices are from towns & villages in Rajasthan, MPs or Gujarat.

Black is bad : one shall avoid wearing black shirts, t shirts, tops or ridas.

5 Mangli : A month with 5 Tuesdays are a bad omen for singles between 18 – 25 years (both genders), to wad off evil influence one shall do sadaqa on every Tuesday.

Pregnancy Black Thread (kaalo dhaago) : A black thread is tied around the waist of the women to ensure safety for both mother and baby.

Neem baath for Matajima : A bath in neem leaves water to cure or purify a person from Chicken Pox (Matajima). It is also a hearsay that Matajima bestows beauty on the person who is infected once in the lifetime.

Nazar Utarvu with a Water Lota : Kids before misaak when they fall ill and are moody made to sit at the doorstep of a room and the elder lady (granny, mom or aunty) circles a water filled Lota around the head of that kid 3 or 7 times reciting some duaa (may be salwaat or sura ).

Kaatho Peetvo : During wedding events, the mama of Dulhan ties a papaya draped in red cloth over the entrance door. While women of the house crush turmeric and other herbs to make a beauty lotion for the Peethi ceremony.

Faal Charaavu : Roza in Galiyakot and Burhanpur has an office outside the main Mausoleum giving away metal (silver or stainless steel) shapes of a human, palm, house, leaf for a pledged (minnat) amount. That article is then placed on the turbat with the wish / desire / minnat of the seeker.

Faal Dekhvu : A person in dilemma of choice or suffering from prolonged misfortune or seeking guidance for future actions, goes to the raza na saheb and requests him to see faal for him. The raza na saheb recites some prayers and opens a random page of Quran and reads the Ayaahs on the page, interprets them to provide suggestion / solution to the seeker.

Ok, i remember promising sometime earlier that this is something that i wanted to discuss.

IMHO, i feel that all the traditions mentioned above and a whole host of the others can all be ascribed to the fact that the Dawoodi Bohra community, when came to India, landed in Gujarat.

Thus, if you actually consider it, a lot of our customs are similar to what the Parsees do. They also believe in a 5-Tuesday month, black thread in pregnancy, neem baths when suffering from chicken pox, haldi ceremony for to-be-brides etc.

All of this is obviously a throwback to the Hindu customs that somehow got mingled with ours. Even the Faal Chadhavanu is a very Hindu phenomena.

So yeah, people can say that the Dawoodi Bohra culture got bastardised, but then so did the Sunni culture which came in from the south and who became Memons and follow practices which are reminiscent of their South-Indian neighbours.

So, IMHO, it is all due to an inter-mingling of culture. Some Hindus became Muslims and some Muslims adopted the practices of Hindus.

This is ofcourse, my opinion, which i believe is based on simple, anthropological insights.

[Muslim First]

mn
So yeah, people can say that the Dawoodi Bohra culture got bastardised, but then so did the Sunni culture which came in from the south and who became Memons and follow practices which are reminiscent of their South-Indian neighbours.
So, IMHO, it is all due to an inter-mingling of culture. Some Hindus became Muslims and some Muslims adopted the practices of Hindus.

This is ofcourse, my opinion, which i believe is based on simple, anthropological insights.

Br Mustafa
AS
Study Qur'an and Ahadith
at least buy and read A treasury of Ahadith by Mazhar Kazi
Look under Omens
it says:
Abdulla bin Masud reported
Prophet SAW said: "Believing in bad omens is Shirk". He repeated three times and then said "There is nothing that Allah would not remove from us if we have trust in him".
(Abu-Dawud and at-Tirmidhi)
Also
Qura'an 65:3
If anybody puts his trust in Allah, Allah is sufficient for him.
I am sure your Amils, Shehzadas, Maulai Muffi or your Maulana has never pointed that as per Prophet to believe in omens is shirk and Allah commanded you trust him and turn to him in every difficulty. Bohra religion is there for Hundreds of years and they somehow yet not shaded their hindu ways. It is not their fault but fault of their clergy. Clergy keep their focus on glorify themself and brain washing Bohra Umma that only way to Jannah is worshipping Ah le Bait, dead real or phony saints and worshipping Maulana and his family. Focus is always finding ways to collect money so they can have oppulant life style.

I have repeatedly posted 2:208 where Allah commands us to enter Islam completely. That means leave our previous religious ways.

Dawoodi Bohra culture got bastardised, but then so did the Sunni culture which came in from the south and who became Memons and follow practices which are reminiscent of their South-Indian neighbours.

Do not worry about any other sect’s ways. Wo Kuwey me girege to kya aap bhi Kuwey me giroge? Those so called Sunnis who still follow Hindu ways need to wake up and adopt Islam completely

[mustafanalwalla]

mn
So yeah, people can say that the Dawoodi Bohra culture got bastardised, but then so did the Sunni culture which came in from the south and who became Memons and follow practices which are reminiscent of their South-Indian neighbours.
So, IMHO, it is all due to an inter-mingling of culture. Some Hindus became Muslims and some Muslims adopted the practices of Hindus.

This is ofcourse, my opinion, which i believe is based on simple, anthropological insights.

Br Mustafa
AS
Study Qur'an and Ahadith
at least buy and read A treasury of Ahadith by Mazhar Kazi
Look under Omens
it says:
Abdulla bin Masud reported
Prophet SAW said: "Believing in bad omens is Shirk". He repeated three times and then said "There is nothing that Allah would not remove from us if we have trust in him".
(Abu-Dawud and at-Tirmidhi)
Also
Qura'an 65:3
If anybody puts his trust in Allah, Allah is sufficient for him.
I am sure your Amils, Shehzadas, Maulai Muffi or your Maulana has never pointed that as per Prophet to believe in omens is shirk and Allah commanded you trust him and turn to him in every difficulty. Bohra religion is there for Hundreds of years and they somehow yet not shaded their hindu ways. It is not their fault but fault of their clergy. Clergy keep their focus on glorify themself and brain washing Bohra Umma that only way to Jannah is worshipping Ah le Bait, dead real or phony saints and worshipping Maulana and his family. Focus is always finding ways to collect money so they can have oppulant life style.

I have repeatedly posted 2:208 where Allah commands us to enter Islam completely. That means leave our previous religious ways.

Dawoodi Bohra culture got bastardised, but then so did the Sunni culture which came in from the south and who became Memons and follow practices which are reminiscent of their South-Indian neighbours.

Do not worry about any other sect’s ways. Wo Kuwey me girege to kya aap bhi Kuwey me giroge? Those so called Sunnis who still follow Hindu ways need to wake up and adopt Islam completely

Sir, Waalekum As Salam.

If you will permit me, i would prefer to not get into a debate with you, or for anyone else for that matter on this.

The opinions that i have expressed are purely my own. I am not thrusting them on anyone so see no reason for me to defend them.

What you say may be true, but then again, fact remains that all cultures WILL HAVE TOO mix with those of the host nations too.

[humanbeing]

fact remains that all cultures WILL HAVE TOO mix with those of the host nations too.

Cultures gets mixed, but superstitions have to be avoided. What I presented are superstitions, not cultures ! So how does “bhanela shehzada” deal with such practices. The irony is, Kothari leaders have not only sustained this practices but promoted as part of faith.

[mustafanalwalla]

deleted

[mustafanalwalla]

fact remains that all cultures WILL HAVE TOO mix with those of the host nations too.

Cultures gets mixed, but superstitions have to be avoided. What I presented are superstitions, not cultures ! So how does “bhanela shehzada” deal with such practices. The irony is, Kothari leaders have not only sustained this practices but promoted as part of faith.

Sure, but superstitions are also a part of the culture. I'm sure you will agree with me on that. Superstitions, practices, trends, attitudes, habits etc are all part of culture.

Dont forget, these practices are not related to a particular community (gujarati) or religion (Hinduism) but to a country, India

Now, leave alone the "bhanela shehzada" out of this or i will have to ask you what are you doing to condone these practices

So, let me ask you this, when you get married, will you ask for the haldi-peethi ceremony to be rejected since it is Hindu ceremony? will you ask to not wear a garland of flowers since it is a Hindu ceremony? Will you not ask for gifts to not be given to each other since it is a Hindu ceremony?

Be honest with yourself friend. The culture of the country that you were born in and live in forms an intrinsic part of your belief system. no way that you can delink it

[humanbeing]

Sure, but superstitions are also a part of the culture. I'm sure you will agree with me on that. Superstitions, practices, trends, attitudes, habits etc are all part of culture.

Superstitions are the weeds which are to be eradicated whether it’s a adaptation or inherent of a culture.

Now, leave alone the "bhanela shehzada" out of this or i will have to ask you what are you doing to condone these practices

Why should “bhanela Shehzada” are to be absolved of any responsibility about these superstitions, when they are the ones who are sustaining, promoting and validating such practices by the virtue of their position (teachers) and trust of the people in their preachings.

I have criticized and resisted this practices in my family. Persistently made them understand these are mere superstitions. I wear black as I please, and I don’t do faals, I don’t participate in kaatho peetvo, nor I believe in the kaalo dhaago for pregnancy, or peiece of cloth from sayedna saheb’s shawl for Chatti. A month has 3 or 5 Tuesdays, who cares. Sadaqa is to be done any day, everyday, someday. Whatever will happen is Allah’s will for bigger or better good.

So, let me ask you this, when you get married, will you ask for the haldi-peethi ceremony to be rejected since it is Hindu ceremony? will you ask to not wear a garland of flowers since it is a Hindu ceremony? Will you not ask for gifts to not be given to each other since it is a Hindu ceremony?

MN, lets not mix up superstitions and rituals. I m not the one who ridicules or demeans other people’s culture and way of life. Its done by religious fanatical purist preachers. Don’t mix up my POV on superstitions with rituals or secular acts.

Haldi-peethi ceremony / garland etc : In my personal case, I don’t think so any of typical wedding rituals will happen. Reasons are personal known to me.

[mustafanalwalla]

Sure, but superstitions are also a part of the culture. I'm sure you will agree with me on that. Superstitions, practices, trends, attitudes, habits etc are all part of culture.

Superstitions are the weeds which are to be eradicated whether it’s a adaptation or inherent of a culture.

All the best my friend

Now, leave alone the "bhanela shehzada" out of this or i will have to ask you what are you doing to condone these practices

Why should “bhanela Shehzada” are to be absolved of any responsibility about these superstitions, when they are the ones who are sustaining, promoting and validating such practices by the virtue of their position (teachers) and trust of the people in their preachings.

Because, in a way, they are privy to the same set of cultural conditioning and upbringing that you and i, are fathers, our grandfathers, and our ancestors are used too. So, after a couple of generations, it has become part of the culture

I have criticized and resisted this practices in my family. Persistently made them understand these are mere superstitions. I wear black as I please, and I don’t do faals, I don’t participate in kaatho peetvo, nor I believe in the kaalo dhaago for pregnancy, or peiece of cloth from sayedna saheb’s shawl for Chatti. A month has 3 or 5 Tuesdays, who cares. Sadaqa is to be done any day, everyday, someday. Whatever will happen would be of Allah’s will for bigger or better good.

Good for you

So, let me ask you this, when you get married, will you ask for the haldi-peethi ceremony to be rejected since it is Hindu ceremony? will you ask to not wear a garland of flowers since it is a Hindu ceremony? Will you not ask for gifts to not be given to each other since it is a Hindu ceremony?

MN, lets not mix up superstitions and rituals. I m not the one who ridicules or demeans other people’s culture and way of life. Its done by religious fanatical purist preachers. Don’t mix up my POV on superstitions with rituals or secular acts.

Im not. A lot of the so-called "superstitions", mind you, are actually rituals. Kaatho peetvanu is a ritual. Cheda Chedi during marriages, is a ritual. Tying a coconut in a red clothover the doorway during a marriage, is a ritual. Im only asking you

Haldi-peethi ceremony / garland etc : In my personal case, I don’t think so any of typical wedding rituals will happen. Reasons are personal known to me.

Im sorry but it was not meant to be a personal comment, it was more to quote an analogy, no offence meant there and i hope none taken

To end it all, what you claim are "superstitions" are actually culture in India. you should perhaps come back and spend some more time in this great nation of ours

[humanbeing]

Because, in a way, they are privy to the same set of cultural conditioning and upbringing that you and i, are fathers, our grandfathers, and our ancestors are used too. So, after a couple of generations, it has become part of the culture

No ! Bhanela Shehzada are much more then you and me. Their cultural conditioning and upbringing is far more in depth then commoners. They have access to baatin and hidden knowledge, to which a lowly dumb commoner has no clue about. They command (so believed) the finest and intricate knowledge of Islam from its root sources. How can a bhanela shehzada be so naïve to such cultural superstitions, with all the power of influence they command, such superstitions can be removed in flash of a farman.

Question is, why are these superstitions still lingering on in Muslim DB community ?

Im not. A lot of the so-called "superstitions", mind you, are actually rituals. Kaatho peetvanu is a ritual. Cheda Chedi during marriages, is a ritual. Tying a coconut in a red clothover the doorway during a marriage, is a ritual. Im only asking you

A ritual is a broader term then superstitions, The questions we should be asking is, why is a ritual taking place, what does their action signify, benefit or satisfy which need of the performer. What is the belief behind any ritual, the purpose and need.

Tying a coconut / papaya in a red cloth over the doorway is a superstitious ritual; belief behind such act is to ward off evil eyes or bad omen from entering into the house. (This is one of the reason I have learnt from blind followers)

When I saw this amusing ritual and enquired with many people from different age groups, they gave their own folklore belief or just shrugged off with reason saying that, “Rasam che, etle kari raha che”
-------------------------------------------------
MN, No offense taken, as long we are having a civilized conversation / argument / debate leading to learning and unlearning accordingly.
---------------------------------------------------
Being superstitious is nothing to be proud of. Its because of these and many baffling superstitions, India has remained a developing poor country since ages. Where superstitions are respected more then lives of people.

Any development or advancement is due to those intellectuals and daredevils who have challenged superstitious limits and rose above petty confinements of stifled religious societies.

[mustafanalwalla]

Because, in a way, they are privy to the same set of cultural conditioning and upbringing that you and i, are fathers, our grandfathers, and our ancestors are used too. So, after a couple of generations, it has become part of the culture

No ! Bhanela Shehzada are much more then you and me. Their cultural conditioning and upbringing is far more in depth then commoners. They have access to baatin and hidden knowledge, to which a lowly dumb commoner has no clue about. They command (so believed) the finest and intricate knowledge of Islam from its root sources. How can a bhanela shehzada be so naïve to such cultural superstitions, with all the power of influence they command, such superstitions can be removed in flash of a farman.

My friend, let me repeat myself. These events have been taking place for the past 400+ years. Do you really think a farmaan is going to change that? The Kothaar today says not to have a sangeet ceremony but even then, so many orthrodox Bohras do it because, a) it is almost a part of the culture and b) it is fun.

And you are contradicting yourself now. on one hand you say that these "bhanela shezaada" are mere mortals, no different from you and me so why should they be given so much importance, why should we bend in front of them etc etc and now you claim that they are better than us!!! Which one is it?????


Question is, why are these superstitions still lingering on in Muslim DB community ?

Correction, MUSLIM COMMUNITY. Have a look at the Sunni Memons. Have a look at the Iranis. Have a look at any non-indigenous religion that has settled in India. Look at the Bene Israel Jews and see how much of the local tradtions have become a part of their culture.

Im not. A lot of the so-called "superstitions", mind you, are actually rituals. Kaatho peetvanu is a ritual. Cheda Chedi during marriages, is a ritual. Tying a coconut in a red clothover the doorway during a marriage, is a ritual. Im only asking you

A ritual is a broader term then superstitions, The questions we should be asking is, why is a ritual taking place, what does their action signify, benefit or satisfy which need of the performer. What is the belief behind any ritual, the purpose and need.

Ok, i dont have an answer to this. Ask your family elders or your grandparents and they wont be able to give you an answer either. What does the action signify, what need does it satisfy etc is all internal. if it makes one feel good from within, without harming someone, there is nothing wrong. if smoking or drinking make you feel good, but destroy the family, then it is bad
Yes, a ritual is broader a term compared to superstitions, but a superstition is a sub-set of a ritual, which is a sub-set of culture which is a sub-set of the home soil
Tying a coconut / papaya in a red cloth over the doorway is a superstitious ritual; belief behind such act is to ward off evil eyes or bad omen from entering into the house. (This is one of the reason I have learnt from blind followers)

I dont think any follower, blind, near-sighted, far-sighted or with perfect 20:20 vision will be able to give you an accurate answer

When I saw this amusing ritual and enquired with many people from different age groups, they gave their own folklore belief or just shrugged off with reason saying that, “Rasam che, etle kari raha che”
Exactly, rasam che, rasam means tradition, rasam means culture,
-------------------------------------------------
MN, No offense taken, as long we are having a civilized conversation / argument / debate leading to learning and unlearning accordingly.
---------------------------------------------------
Being superstitious is nothing to be proud of. Its because of these and many baffling superstitions, India has remained a developing poor country since ages. Where superstitions are respected more then lives of people.

Which is why i think you should spend more time in this country. i think you still think of India as the land of maharajas, elephants and snake charmers

Any development or advancement is due to those intellectuals and daredevils who have challenged superstitious limits and rose above petty confinements of stifled religious societies. No doubt about this at all, but then, consider this

1. APJ Abdul Kalam is a blind follower of Sathya Sai Baba, a man who revelled in superstition
2. AB Vajpayee, the prime minister who had the balls to test a nuclear bomb was superstitous to the core
3. Indira Gandhi in the early 1970s said that she had no time for religious leaders, she encouraged Dhirendra Brahmachari, her "yoga teacher" to become an influence on her like a Rasputin on the last Tsar.
4. Rajiv Gandhi went one step ahead by visiting Bangaru Adigal, a Tamil guru who had been imprisoned earlier for forging Indian currency notes, for his blessings and to Devaraha Baba whose way of blessing devotees was to sit on a tree and kick them lightly in the head.
5. Amitabh Bachchan avoids watching live telecasts of cricket matches involving India because he believes that will jinx his home team
6. Scientists at the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) do not just rely on scientific calculations before a rocket launch - they also seek divine help. Prior to every launch, the scientists make a visit to Tirupathi to have a 'darshan' of Lord Balaji seeking his blessings by placing a replica of the rocket to be launched.

So would you still say that all these people who are sooooooooooooooooooooo blindingly superstitous are responsible for putting India on the world map or are resposible for pulling the country lower??????????????

Think about it now

[Muslim First]

MN
[b]1. APJ Abdul Kalam is a blind follower of Sathya Sai Baba, a man who revelled in superstition[/b]
If APJ Abdul Kalam being a Muslim followed his Ptophet and read Qur'an and Ahaid on omens and superstition then he would have respected Sai BAB for his good deeds but not follow him.
2. AB Vajpayee, the prime minister who had the balls to test a nuclear bomb was superstitous to the core
3. Indira Gandhi in the early 1970s said that she had no time for religious leaders, she encouraged Dhirendra Brahmachari, her "yoga teacher" to become an influence on her like a Rasputin on the last Tsar.
4. Rajiv Gandhi went one step ahead by visiting Bangaru Adigal, a Tamil guru who had been imprisoned earlier for forging Indian currency notes, for his blessings and to Devaraha Baba whose way of blessing devotees was to sit on a tree and kick them lightly in the head.
5. Amitabh Bachchan avoids watching live telecasts of cricket matches involving India because he believes that will jinx his home team
6. Scientists at the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) do not just rely on scientific calculations before a rocket launch - they also seek divine help. Prior to every launch, the scientists make a visit to Tirupathi to have a 'darshan' of Lord Balaji seeking his blessings by placing a replica of the rocket to be launched.
Br MN
I have given you solid argument from Qur'an and Hadith. it appears you do not get it.
Did you understand this: "Wo Kuwey me girege to kya aap bhi Kuwey me giroge?"

You sound more like "Miyabhai gire to gire magar taang unchi ki Unchi"

[Muslim First]

Br MN
Read this on superstistition
http://www.islamhelpline.net/category/superstition

Also read this related to omens
http://www.islamhelpline.net/node/136

Read, understand and follow if you agree otherwise be a blind follower

[Muslim First]

MN

6. Scientists at the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) do not just rely on scientific calculations before a rocket launch - they also seek divine help. Prior to every launch, the scientists make a visit to Tirupathi to have a 'darshan' of Lord Balaji seeking his blessings by placing a replica of the rocket to be launched.

Br MN
If any worker of NASA did this kind of stuff in USA he would be fired.

[humanbeing]

My friend, let me repeat myself. These events have been taking place for the past 400+ years. Do you really think a farmaan is going to change that? The Kothaar today says not to have a sangeet ceremony but even then, so many orthrodox Bohras do it because, a) it is almost a part of the culture and b) it is fun.

Sure ! one farman can do wonders ! look at our community how uniformed and regimented it has become due to farmaans and Maula ni khushi. But the question is, would Kothari leaders stop or denounce such superstitions ! Few practices (Faal, Kaalo Dhaago,Chatti Cloth) mentioned are a convenient source of income for the Kothari inc, other superstitions are a convenient scare to keep superstitious bohras into check and dependent on the “divine” clergy class who propagate such practices as solution to seekers.

MN, just to make the argument a little more sensible, please understand the concern on superstitions.

Yes, a ritual is broader a term compared to superstitions, but a superstition is a sub-set of a ritual, which is a sub-set of culture which is a sub-set of the home soil

And this subset superstitious ritual inherited in tradition as part of culture from the home soil shall be eradicated and thrown out of the window. Just like Sati, Caste system, and many other such useless and manipulative tactics to promote cultish mentality.

I have heard a story of a devot bohra from some wagaad town (sagwara or partapur) walked on his knees uptill galiyakot dargaah as minnat to pray for sayedna saheb’s health. (apologies if this is just a hearsay) or please if someone can attest this as true would be appreciated.

Every year hordes of bohra mumins take a walk from such waagad town to galiyakot dargaah as minnat to pray for sayedna saheb’s good health & long life. It has become so popular that now its kinda becoming an annual salgirah affair or ritual.

Now figure out, from where such practices have evolved. It’s a popular hindu ritual !! So if such is the adaptation and acceptance, then why do Kothari leaders denounce or ridicule non-bohras way of life. Why do they shout from the roofs of being the most pure and pious muslims following islam to its core.

MN, before you advise me to look at bright side of such superstitions, then in my opinion, there is none. One can see the trick such superstitions allow priestly class to maintain control and grip over the masses keeping them scared and in check.

[ghulam muhammed]

Sure, but superstitions are also a part of the culture. I'm sure you will agree with me on that. Superstitions, practices, trends, attitudes, habits etc are all part of culture.

The earlier day arabs were also extremely superstitous and our Prophet (s.a.w.) took all measures to eradicate those practices. Hence if superstition could be linked to culture then why did Prophet (s.a.w.) explicitly prohibit the same ? Moreover there is a vast difference between rituals and superstitions.

[like_minded]

If you look at it closely, The main reason behind such superstitions is fear... Fear is the source of all evils in the world. The so-called clergies reinforce this fear in order to control the masses.

[JC]

Bro Like Minded,

Agreed it is Fear but there is one other important thing - GREED .......... Abdes are constantly reminded to these two things .......... Worship Dai and you will get EVERYTHING without doing anything good (ofcourse PAY and PAY to DAI only), hence re-enforcing GREED ........ more and more SAWAB and BARAKAT will come if you SEE DAI only. And secondly as you mentioned, FEAR, instigate fear, you will loose EVERYTHING if you do not WORSHIP Dai. So it is deadly combination - WORSHIP DAI is the KEY, this satisfies two basic human straits - GREED AND FEAR.

[ghulam muhammed]

FEAR is the key factor in every religion. One will find ulemas, mullas and zaadas constantly reminding you of Allah's wrath in case of wrongdoings but how many elaborate on the fact that He is "Ghafurur Rahim", the All Forgiving !!!

[humanbeing]

Fear of Allah (Khuda no Khauff) to refrain from doing Evil is a good virtue and a need for sanity in this world. But the superstitions and practices attached are something weird, its fear of evil or fear of loosing wordly possessions or fear of unknown, weakening faith in allah and promoting faith in such placebo practices.

Fear of unknown is a natural pshycological behavior of humans, to counter this fear with confidence we need faith, faith in optimism and allah. A positive minds justifies, “whatever-happens-happends-for-good”. Vested interest amplify this fear to meet their own ambitions for power and money.

I have come across alarming practices, beliefs, folklores to justify miracles affiliated to such practices. In a typical rural bohra women mentality everything around her is a miracle of sayedna sahib and result of such ritualistic superstitions.

Women of the household rush to dargaahs to take minnat at smallest reasons, pledging amounts for various rituals, faal, chaadars, phool etc.

Medical conditions are ignored in exchange of phook-nu-paani, turbat-par-chadavelu-pani, turbat-na-phool, turbat-ni-salwat etc. untill such medical conditions reach serious levels. In many semi-sane minded people, they keep this attitude parallel to dawa and duaa.. Please note, praying to Allah by means of reciting Quran, Surahs, Namaaz to seek help or blessing from allah is not in my opinion’s context.

Let me narrate a funny ironical incident I came across.

Along with few friends, I was sitting at home of an extremely orthodoxed abde woman, mother of my host friend. There was also a hindu friend in the group. She disliked her son’s friendship with non bohra kids. After spending few moments, hindu friend left from the house, and only few bohra friends were left. When she learnt that hindu friend has left the house. She bought a bowl of water and started sprinkling water on the places wherever the hindu friend was sitting, reciting / murmuring some duaas (salwat I guess) to purify the spots. I was surprised and asked my embarrassed friend what his mother was doing !

The funny part is, ritual she performed to make the place “paak” is a caste oriented racist hindu ritual. When a Brahmin sprays gangajal (preferred) with reciting shlokas to purify (pavitra) a place visited by low caste hindus or non hindus.

[aqs]

HB and Others,

Its good that we point out superstitions in the name of culture and eradicate it, but problem arises when we take the holier than thou attitude and try to look down on our brethren.

lets analyse it in a different way.

1) I think HB is from Wagar region of Rajasthan and might be aware of exorcising demons at Syedi Fakhruddin Shaheed's roza or breaking of shackles. Now explain this to a rational mind, explain haziris and demons from inside humans talking. You can talk to a doctor and he will not believe in this, because modern science doesn't believe in all this and says its just some chemical locha.

2) Quran talks about Jinns, do you believe in them. because again modern science doesnt give much credence to it.

3) Going to Turbats and asking Dua to saheb of qabar or taking wasila. You could have done the same by asking dua at home directly to Allah. Why an intermediary when Allah is closer than your jugular vein.

4) Nazar Maqam can be discarded with the same logic of point 3, infact whole of Shiasm can be discarded in the same way.

questions can lead to some uncomfortable answers. So be ware. Conscience is a tricky thing. You want to do some thing, want to believe in some thing but cant, A lot of barriers stop us mainly, Society, family and best of them Religion as we think it is.

[humanbeing]

Hi Aqs

With Allah’s grace, I have lived in various parts of India with bohra dominance and got an opportunity to live diverse bohra culture. (Gujarat / Rajasthan / Maharashtra / Madhya Pradesh) and now in Middle east which is culmination of bohras from various parts of India and world. I have observed many more latent superstitious beliefs in people. At one point I believed them as part of my upbringing but with time and uselessness of such superstitions made me think and question. Your points are worthy of a disturbing debate and there may be no conclusion as many issues are part of belief. Even though if one has never experienced such supernatural phenomena.

My argument circles around transformation of a belief into a superstitious ritual, further promoted by vested interest to exploit into a money making scheme. Not only in bohra community, but the grip of superstitions has affected many people across many religions.

Does supernatural phenomena, such as being possessed or miraculous healing come with a cost in material offerings ? Do this solutions become a commercial commodities for exchange.

Going to turbat, with intention of taking a wasilaa of the sahib to pray to allah to seek desires / dilemmas / needs involve doling out money for chaadars, gullaks, faals at various incremental rates ? more the money more the emphasis on minnat ! Many argue, that it’s a voluntary and no force one to pay. But its instilled in the mindset, subconsciously money with expression of respect, walaya or pledge. Can one offer Faal without money ? Mullah on the counter asks for pledged money and gives a receipt ! A faal goes for Rs 10 – Rs 1000 is there any difference between minnat of Rs 10 to Rs. 1000.

We cannot paint everything under one brush of rationality, logic, belief or superstitions, but do we also allow rituals or practices which are glaring examples of latent exploitation of one’s belief.

[aqs]

HB,

Maximum current beliefs of Bohras are reminiscent of their Hindu past. You will not find them in larger Muslim ummah. And as kothar has perfected the art of minting each and every opportunity they have done the same with these customs and beliefs.

So in the end it depends on us how we want to proceed, You can discard customs and practices that you find superstitions, you can bear the rituals done by your family in marriages or few others by older members of the family but your coming generation will not do them, so rest assured in next couple of decades you and hopefully we all will be out of this mumbo jumbo

[SBM]

Aqs
kothar has perfected the art of minting each and every opportunity they have done the same with these customs and beliefs.

Why blame Kothari Goons they are smart and they know how they can extract and being an opportunist they are doing their job it is the guillable followers who are to be blamed, DUNIYA JHOKTI HEY JHOKANE WALA CHAYE
Kothari Goons are doing exactly what a prudent business would do, opportunity strikes and if you take advantage that is what our cousins Al-Daud has been doing

[mustafanalwalla]

MN
[b]1. APJ Abdul Kalam is a blind follower of Sathya Sai Baba, a man who revelled in superstition[/b]
If APJ Abdul Kalam being a Muslim followed his Ptophet and read Qur'an and Ahaid on omens and superstition then he would have respected Sai BAB for his good deeds but not follow him.
2. AB Vajpayee, the prime minister who had the balls to test a nuclear bomb was superstitous to the core
3. Indira Gandhi in the early 1970s said that she had no time for religious leaders, she encouraged Dhirendra Brahmachari, her "yoga teacher" to become an influence on her like a Rasputin on the last Tsar.
4. Rajiv Gandhi went one step ahead by visiting Bangaru Adigal, a Tamil guru who had been imprisoned earlier for forging Indian currency notes, for his blessings and to Devaraha Baba whose way of blessing devotees was to sit on a tree and kick them lightly in the head.
5. Amitabh Bachchan avoids watching live telecasts of cricket matches involving India because he believes that will jinx his home team
6. Scientists at the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) do not just rely on scientific calculations before a rocket launch - they also seek divine help. Prior to every launch, the scientists make a visit to Tirupathi to have a 'darshan' of Lord Balaji seeking his blessings by placing a replica of the rocket to be launched.
Br MN
I have given you solid argument from Qur'an and Hadith. it appears you do not get it.
Did you understand this: "Wo Kuwey me girege to kya aap bhi Kuwey me giroge?"

You sound more like "Miyabhai gire to gire magar taang unchi ki Unchi"

Mr. MF,

First of all, i think have far more decency than some of your friends and i will never call a Sunni Muslim as Miya bhai. i hope that i have always given them respect when and where it is due.

And

Secondly, none of the people quoted above are Muslims, i agree, but my contention was to my good, learned friend HB who said that people, in their blind superstitous beliefs are pulling country/community down. I do hope that what i was trying to address was understood.

[mustafanalwalla]

MN

6. Scientists at the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) do not just rely on scientific calculations before a rocket launch - they also seek divine help. Prior to every launch, the scientists make a visit to Tirupathi to have a 'darshan' of Lord Balaji seeking his blessings by placing a replica of the rocket to be launched.

Br MN
If any worker of NASA did this kind of stuff in USA he would be fired.

[mustafanalwalla]

Hi Aqs

With Allah’s grace, I have lived in various parts of India with bohra dominance and got an opportunity to live diverse bohra culture. (Gujarat / Rajasthan / Maharashtra / Madhya Pradesh) and now in Middle east which is culmination of bohras from various parts of India and world. I have observed many more latent superstitious beliefs in people. At one point I believed them as part of my upbringing but with time and uselessness of such superstitions made me think and question. Your points are worthy of a disturbing debate and there may be no conclusion as many issues are part of belief. Even though if one has never experienced such supernatural phenomena.

My argument circles around transformation of a belief into a superstitious ritual, further promoted by vested interest to exploit into a money making scheme. Not only in bohra community, but the grip of superstitions has affected many people across many religions.

Does supernatural phenomena, such as being possessed or miraculous healing come with a cost in material offerings ? Do this solutions become a commercial commodities for exchange.

Going to turbat, with intention of taking a wasilaa of the sahib to pray to allah to seek desires / dilemmas / needs involve doling out money for chaadars, gullaks, faals at various incremental rates ? more the money more the emphasis on minnat ! Many argue, that it’s a voluntary and no force one to pay. But its instilled in the mindset, subconsciously money with expression of respect, walaya or pledge. Can one offer Faal without money ? Mullah on the counter asks for pledged money and gives a receipt ! A faal goes for Rs 10 – Rs 1000 is there any difference between minnat of Rs 10 to Rs. 1000.

We cannot paint everything under one brush of rationality, logic, belief or superstitions, but do we also allow rituals or practices which are glaring examples of latent exploitation of one’s belief.

Hi HB,

you know what, as usual, this debate is not going to go anywhere, so lets leave at this:

You want to be a rational thinker and you want answers for everything that we do, fine, all the best on your quest.

A lot of people here, me included, admit that we do not know the logic or reason behind following certain rituals, superstitions, traditions etc, but lets just call it as cultural idiosincracies of the Dawoodi Bohra community, something that we are born with and since it does not hurt anyone, we dont mind following it, and move on.

OK?

[ghulam muhammed]

something that we are born with and since it does not hurt anyone, we dont mind following it, and move on.

Bro mn,

Even the idol worshippers will justify their worship by saying that it is OK as we were born with the practice and it doesnt hurt anyone. If that was the case then Prophet (s.a.w.) would not have demolished idols in Kaaba and urged its followers to discard this practice. He (s.a.w.) did it because it was Allah's will and hence similarly it is Allah (swt) who clearly commands in the Quran to refrain from superstitions.

[profastian]

Sure, but superstitions are also a part of the culture. I'm sure you will agree with me on that. Superstitions, practices, trends, attitudes, habits etc are all part of culture.

Superstitions are the weeds which are to be eradicated whether it’s a adaptation or inherent of a culture.

Now, leave alone the "bhanela shehzada" out of this or i will have to ask you what are you doing to condone these practices

Why should “bhanela Shehzada” are to be absolved of any responsibility about these superstitions, when they are the ones who are sustaining, promoting and validating such practices by the virtue of their position (teachers) and trust of the people in their preachings.

I have criticized and resisted this practices in my family. Persistently made them understand these are mere superstitions. I wear black as I please, and I don’t do faals, I don’t participate in kaatho peetvo, nor I believe in the kaalo dhaago for pregnancy, or peiece of cloth from sayedna saheb’s shawl for Chatti. A month has 3 or 5 Tuesdays, who cares. Sadaqa is to be done any day, everyday, someday. Whatever will happen is Allah’s will for bigger or better good.

So, let me ask you this, when you get married, will you ask for the haldi-peethi ceremony to be rejected since it is Hindu ceremony? will you ask to not wear a garland of flowers since it is a Hindu ceremony? Will you not ask for gifts to not be given to each other since it is a Hindu ceremony?

MN, lets not mix up superstitions and rituals. I m not the one who ridicules or demeans other people’s culture and way of life. Its done by religious fanatical purist preachers. Don’t mix up my POV on superstitions with rituals or secular acts.

Haldi-peethi ceremony / garland etc : In my personal case, I don’t think so any of typical wedding rituals will happen. Reasons are personal known to me.

Why is Friday special. Aren't all days equal? Why does Dua on certain moments and days more likely to be accepted? Is not all time equal? What about sadqa? Isn't it a superstition of sorts?
The greater part of religion is culture. Do you think Sharia would be the same, if say Mohammad was born in china? The core of the religion is Tauheed. The Duats of hind kept all aspects of the culture which adhered to the concept of Tauheed and let go of those which were against Tauheed. Same was the case with the Duats of Yemen and Imams of Egypt. Nobody denies that these rasoom were practiced by Hindus and were adopted by the Duats. These were not practiced by the Duats of Yemen. But these rasoom were not anti islamic. The reason you feel unconformable with these is because you have been conditioned by the Wahhabi Mullahs to think that every thing a Hindu does is bad.