Practical Ideas for Reform Movement

[Truth_Seeker]

Dear Forum Members,

We all know our limitations of interacting over an online forum and our need to remain anonymous. Majority of the Dawoodi Bohra members here are still EJamaat card holders with their families/relatives under the strong grip of Kothar, and cannot go out in the open and declare rebellion against Kothar. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, in my opinion, no one can devote his entire life just for reforms and come under the direct line of fire - people have their families to take care of.

Hence it becomes imperative that we find ways to contribute as much as we can to the reform movement while being anonymous. I am not sure at this stage if this is at all possible - but giving it a try wouldnt hurt. I am starting this new thread to discuss on all such ideas which are practically feasible to execute. The definition of what is 'feasible' can change as we move forward depending upon how much awareness is spread and the response received.

To get started, in my opinion, it is very important to understand the kind of support the reform movement has through this forum and the demographics of the supporters. Bro DB-L started the Human Resources thread for this - however I think many people didnt respond for the fear of getting disclosed.

I am an analytical person and believe that what you cannot measure, you cannot manage. So, in my opinion, we should start with some basic statistics. We need to know the following for the forum members:

a. Age group - < 29 years, 30-45 years, 45-60 years, > 60 years
b. Sex - Male/Female
c. Geographic Location - Asia/US/Europe
d. Profession - Salaried/Self Employed
e. E Jamaat Card Holder - Yes/No
f. Ready to support reform movement - Yes/No
g. Any other questions that are relevant

Since people are reluctant to share detail over posts, we should consider creating a polling option on this site, where a survey questionnaire can be posted by the Admin and people can take the survey and respond to the above questions. We should have a live Pie Chart or a Bar chart which will capture the responses received by the forum members which will show us our strenght and the willingness of people to participate in reforms. We just need the statistics at this stage and no names should be disclosed behind the responses - it is in a way like any other surveys/polls that you take elsewhere.

Needless to say, the above poll should be open only for Dawoodi Bohras who want to see the betterment of their community. This can also bring some focus on the core agenda of the Reform movement.

Once we have the statistics, I believe future action plan can be charted. This would atleast be a good starting point to base the future reform strategies over.

The questions above are just what i jotted down from the top of my mind. We can discuss over what other questions can be included in the Survey.

Wishing you all a Very happy and Prosperous New Year 2014.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Thank you for taking this forward bro! Lets hope more people respond this time around!

Anyway, I'll go ahead and repeat my details... just to break the ice lol

a) 30-45
b) Male
c) London, U.K.
d) Medical Doctor
e) Yes
f) Hell Yeah!
Adding this would be useful for clarity on where people stand:
g) Belief in Panjatan = 100%

[zinger]

hi Truth seeker bhai, one simple question. maybe the answer is there for me to see but im too dumb to understand... what will you do with these statistics and pie charts and bar graphs?

take prints of it and show it to the Kothar that "look at how many people we have here to support us"???

Is there somethign concrete that will come out of it?

Anyways, my responses are below

a) 30-45
b) Male
c) Mumbai, India
d) Small scale industrialist
e) Yes
f) Yes
Adding this would be useful for clarity on where people stand:
g) Not a closet reformist, but certainly a reformist sympathiser. Ready to take up the issues but a lot needs to be cleaned up before i can convince others to do the same

[hsnhussain]

I apologise to DBL for not being able to post/be helpful in his HR thread.

a. Age group - 30-45 years

b. Sex - Male

c. Geographic Location - Kuwait

d. Profession - Salaried (Salesman)

e. E Jamaat Card Holder - Yes

f. Ready to support reform movement - Yes

g. Education = Under graduate (Commerce)

g) Not a closet reformist, but certainly a reformist sympathiser. Ready to take up the issues but have my limitations.

[AMAFHH]

a) 30-45 years
b) Male
c) Kuwait
d) Salaried
E) Yes
F )Yes

[humanbeing]

Age group – 25 – 30 years

Sex – Male

Marital Status : Married

Family : Heavily Orthodoxed (Abde Sayedna Extremist)

Geographic Location - Kuwait

Profession - Salaried

E Jamaat Card Holder – Yes ( Yellow Class)

Objections :

Unsubstantiated Mojizas
Pompous display of self glorification/self praise
Segregation of people on wealth
Refusal to transparency and accountability
Misrepresentation of Islamic Beliefs


Appreciations :

Wonderfully organized community affairs
Strong civil structure of governance
Mutual love and affection amongst bohra brethren
Interesting history of evolution of bohra faith
Community dining concept (Jaman)
Inter & Intra personal traditions on conduct and etiquettes


Ready to support reform movement – Yes
Stealth reformist, encouraging reasonable debates amongst hostile abdes

[Humsafar]

I've the same question as zinger, how do you plan to use this information?

[Truth_Seeker]

Brothers,

Thanks for your responses. I think there has been some misunderstanding though. My original intention was to throw open the 'idea' of gathering the statistics of how many people are really willing to support the reform movement and what are their demographics etc through the list of questions that i had posted. I didnt expect people to actually provide their details in the post - the idea was to discuss if conducting such a survey is really beneficial and what questions can be included in the survey, what would be the best manner in which this survey can be conducted etc. As stated earlier, my view is that if we really need to move forward, then it is important to know our strenghts, the kind of people who really want to be part of this, etc and we can think of using a polling option to gather this data, so that respondents can remain anonymous and at the same time the data is generated.

Getting this data can be just a starting point. I dont know at this stage how this data can help - but i am sure it would definitely be useful to have such a database. Again this is something that I originally intended to discuss in this thread - ideas of how we can move forward using the data we have etc.

Again, these are my views and I would like to discuss if this makes sense and also any other practical implementable ideas to progress with the reforms. I apologise for any confusions caused as I believe I wasnt not clear enough in my first post.

[Humsafar]

Truth_Seeker,
It would be a good idea to have a network of reformists and supporters who are in touch and can provide help, advice, literature and whatever else is needed. But my contention is, and I know it from experience, that the real change will come on the ground, at a local level. The initial action must come from people at a particular jamat. And that action must be repeated multiple times, and across different jamats. Unless that happens nothing much is going to change. Our task through this forum should be to facilitate that action.

Maybe with the survey, or some basic details like people have posted here, people can identify like-minded people and join forces. For example, "humanbeing" and "AMAFHH" are both from Kuwait, they should get in touch and work together, find more like-minded people and organise a group. And as a group they should start stirring things at their Kuwait jamat - address the common grievances of the majority like, say, selling of masslah spots, and protest against it. This way people will join them in their cause. This is how the group can work, increase in numbers and move on to bigger things.

The bottomline is that this whole corrupt structure is based on the willingness of people to participate in it, once people refuse to participate the structure is bound to collapse. Bohras experience and interact with the Kothar only at the jamat level - otherwise the Kohtar is an abstract thing. You can't fight this monster any other way except where they come face to face with it - the local jamat, the aamil and his henchmen. Liberate one bohra at a time, one jamat at a time.

[Qutbi-Hero]

hi Truth seeker bhai, one simple question. maybe the answer is there for me to see but im too dumb to understand... what will you do with these statistics and pie charts and bar graphs?

take prints of it and show it to the Kothar that "look at how many people we have here to support us"???

Is there somethign concrete that will come out of it?

True dude, but I think at this stage TS bro is just brain-storming ideas... everything is still very much up in the air.

For the time being there are so few people here that any statistics will be pretty meaningless anyway - however it's worth considering as this place will become more and more active now that Admin has put the new policy in place - 5 years from now we may have hundreds of people instead of just a couple of dozen... 10 years from now we may have thousands...

However I think we're all being a little paranoid about secrecy and worrying too much about losing our anonymity - as long as we use common sense and don't give away too much, the Kothar can't identify any one of us here... they ain't the FBI lol,

[Qutbi-Hero]

Objections :
Unsubstantiated Mojizas
Pompous display of self glorification/self praise
Segregation of people on wealth
Refusal to transparency and accountability
Misrepresentation of Islamic Beliefs

Agreed. The question is how do we tackle these things? We need to come up with realistic step-by-step plans to dismantle these (and all the other) corruptions the Kothar has been feeding in to our community.

Appreciations :
Wonderfully organized community affairs
Strong civil structure of governance
Mutual love and affection amongst bohra brethren
Interesting history of evolution of bohra faith
Community dining concept (Jaman)
Inter & Intra personal traditions on conduct and etiquettes

Yes, people often talk about the DB community as being ENTIRELY bad - it isn't at all. There is still plenty that is good and that we should be proud of. Especially when you compare with other Muslim communities.

Anyway, great replies so far - perhaps adding more info would be useful to understand each others opinions better (and hopefully avoid continuous conflicts lol). We need to stop arguing amongst each other and start working together.

g. Shia or Sunni = Everybody should be allowed here, as long as they are respectful
h. Reformist Sentiment = Member of a Reformist Jamaat, or member of DB jamaat who supports the Reformist Movement, or Abde against Reform etc
i. Educational Qualifications = To see what skills are available to develop etc
j. Marital Status = Single people will naturally have a different perspective to those who have children to worry about etc
k. Family Background = Coming from Hardcore Abde parents or Moderate DB or very Liberal DB who rarely attends Masjid etc
l. ???

[Qutbi-Hero]

Brothers,

Thanks for your responses. I think there has been some misunderstanding though. My original intention was to throw open the 'idea' of gathering the statistics of how many people are really willing to support the reform movement and what are their demographics etc through the list of questions that i had posted. I didnt expect people to actually provide their details in the post - the idea was to discuss if conducting such a survey is really beneficial and what questions can be included in the survey, what would be the best manner in which this survey can be conducted etc. As stated earlier, my view is that if we really need to move forward, then it is important to know our strenghts, the kind of people who really want to be part of this, etc and we can think of using a polling option to gather this data, so that respondents can remain anonymous and at the same time the data is generated.

Getting this data can be just a starting point. I dont know at this stage how this data can help - but i am sure it would definitely be useful to have such a database. Again this is something that I originally intended to discuss in this thread - ideas of how we can move forward using the data we have etc.

Again, these are my views and I would like to discuss if this makes sense and also any other practical implementable ideas to progress with the reforms. I apologise for any confusions caused as I believe I wasnt not clear enough in my first post.

Bro, the survey idea is good - but it's much simpler and easier to respond to this thread, don't you think? We are just as anonymous here as we would be on the survey.

[Truth_Seeker]

Truth_Seeker,
It would be a good idea to have a network of reformists and supporters who are in touch and can provide help, advice, literature and whatever else is needed. But my contention is, and I know it from experience, that the real change will come on the ground, at a local level. The initial action must come from people at a particular jamat. And that action must be repeated multiple times, and across different jamats. Unless that happens nothing much is going to change. Our task through this forum should be to facilitate that action.

Maybe with the survey, or some basic details like people have posted here, people can identify like-minded people and join forces. For example, "humanbeing" and "AMAFHH" are both from Kuwait, they should get in touch and work together, find more like-minded people and organise a group. And as a group they should start stirring things at their Kuwait jamat - address the common grievances of the majority like, say, selling of masslah spots, and protest against it. This way people will join them in their cause. This is how the group can work, increase in numbers and move on to bigger things.

The bottomline is that this whole corrupt structure is based on the willingness of people to participate in it, once people refuse to participate the structure is bound to collapse. Bohras experience and interact with the Kothar only at the jamat level - otherwise the Kohtar is an abstract thing. You can't fight this monster any other way except where they come face to face with it - the local jamat, the aamil and his henchmen. Liberate one bohra at a time, one jamat at a time.

Humsafar Bhai,

Exactly - I agree completely that real reforms need to start at the ground level. And as you rightly pointed out, having the datapoints of who is located where, small groups can be formed to further strategize on the next steps. As mentioned earlier, gathering the Human Resources data would be just a starting point to locate if we have a likeminded individual in our city/town, and also gather statistically how much of support we have on ground, what age group, what profession etc etc. I am sure once we start gathering the data, more newer ideas can spring on how to utilize the resources we have on ground (like your suggestion on brothers Humanbeing and AMAFHH meeting and forming a group of like minded people).

However, all this needs to begin somewhere, and in my opinion, the best starting point would be getting information on the kind of support we actually have on ground.

[Truth_Seeker]

Bro, the survey idea is good - but it's much simpler and easier to respond to this thread, don't you think? We are just as anonymous here as we would be on the survey.[/quote]

Brother,

The only advantage having a survey is that all the responses would be consolidated by the survey tool (or site, or whatever medium we are using for the survey). Having individual responses is good, but we should also have a database where this data can be analyzed and future strategies/actions can be planned based on the data. As an example, lets say there is a particular location where you have the majority of like minded individuals - then obviously we should start from that location.

It can clear off many things as well - for eg. my gut feeling is that most of the posters on this forum are not based in India - primarily because majority of traditional bohras in India are still involved in their family business (Hardware, etc) and are not very educated or Internet savvy. I might be completely wrong with this assumption - but this is something we can uncover from the statistics. In my opinion, different strategies should be adopted to different locations based on the nature of support we have on ground (professional background, male v/s female, age group, willingness to participate in reforms, etc etc).

I agree with you that we may not get too many responses, but this can be just a starting point. 5 years down the line (or earlier hopefully) when the bohras are more aware, this will build upon. Psychologically too having statistical data helps a lot - if I know that I have 10 other members located in my city who really want reforms in the community, it gives me strength and conviction to join the group too, and even if I have not been actively participating on this forum I will start doing so just on the assurance that I have many like minded individuals from my city who can stand up for me.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Brother,

The only advantage having a survey is that all the responses would be consolidated by the survey tool (or site, or whatever medium we are using for the survey). Having individual responses is good, but we should also have a database where this data can be analyzed and future strategies/actions can be planned based on the data. As an example, lets say there is a particular location where you have the majority of like minded individuals - then obviously we should start from that location.

It can clear off many things as well - for eg. my gut feeling is that most of the posters on this forum are not based in India - primarily because majority of traditional bohras in India are still involved in their family business (Hardware, etc) and are not very educated or Internet savvy. I might be completely wrong with this assumption - but this is something we can uncover from the statistics. In my opinion, different strategies should be adopted to different locations based on the nature of support we have on ground (professional background, male v/s female, age group, willingness to participate in reforms, etc etc).

I agree with you that we may not get too many responses, but this can be just a starting point. 5 years down the line (or earlier hopefully) when the bohras are more aware, this will build upon. Psychologically too having statistical data helps a lot - if I know that I have 10 other members located in my city who really want reforms in the community, it gives me strength and conviction to join the group too, and even if I have not been actively participating on this forum I will start doing so just on the assurance that I have many like minded individuals from my city who can stand up for me.

Bro, you've converted me lol.
Somebody could gather the details in this thread, and punch it all in to a database... but a survey would make everything automatic, which would be essential if/when this place gets really big and busy.
Looking forward to Admin setting something up soon!

[Truth_Seeker]

DBL Bro - I am glad you are convinced now for the polling idea

Dear Admin - Do you think the polling option can be created on the website? The list of questions that should go in the poll can be brainstormed further in this thread - however purely from a feasibility perspective do you think it is possible to create a poll and create a database?

[Admin]

Yes, we can create a poll. Let's finalize the questions.

[fight_the_power]

there aren't enough people on this forum i suggest the existence of the forum is advertised somehow the first step is a larger reader base if nothing else

[alam]

Polling is necessary as a starting point. But it needs to be well thought out at least initially.

Wondering what people think whether polling must be restricted to Forum participants, or any visitors too. Accordingly, questions can be formulated.

Checks and balances for multiple responses need to be controlled for as well.

[Qutbi-Hero]

there aren't enough people on this forum i suggest the existence of the forum is advertised somehow the first step is a larger reader base if nothing else

Yes, I'd guess Admin has plans for this after the new software has been installed?
We should all be playing our part too, by emailing/whatsapping people to ask them to join and get involved.


Anyway, another suggestion for Admin!

Together with building a database of Members here - why not build a database of DB Jamaats too? People can supply information like how much the fees are, how good the dabaa scheme is, whether children are forced out of school, whether businesses are forced to close, how strict the AmilSahab is, what scams the Kothar is dreaming up etc etc.

That way we can get an overall picture of what is going on where, and which Jamaats are worse than others. Perhaps with this knowledge we can target certain Jamaats for specific actions or use them as a warning to other DBs who don't know what is going on in other parts of the world etc etc... or the other way around, by letting Jamaats know that other Jamaats are not being pressured to do certain things, therefore they can argue with their AmilSahabs etc etc...

Also, asking about Jamaats would probably gain much more response, as people seem to be very wary of giving personal details about themselves...

[alam]

Polling readers of this forum - if assured of anonymity could lead to a wealth of informational metrics.

The question still remains, what does one do with the data gathered. It would undoubtedly lead to more questions.